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Thread: The Arrival of Siberian Ancestry Connecting the Eastern Baltic to Uralic Speakers fur

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    some of the Second half of twentith Cy Hungarian scientists thought that the basis of the first proto-Uralic speakers, concerning phenotypes, was a 'cromagnoid' pop (Russian meaning), it's to say 'proto-europoid' as an important component of pre-Andronovo people , kind of EHG for us; the admixture with Siberian pops would have occurred later when reaching more Northern regions West of Oural Mountains, admixture which varied in proportions because of different moves later.
    That said, around the 2500's BC during a PWC stage, the crania of people in Estonia and Latvia (very few or almost nothing in Lithuania) became more mesocephalic, with lower and broader faces and more importantly with mostly flatter faces and noses, showing slight so called "mongoloid" input, from the East-Europe Forest zone, phenotypically on the direction of people from Carelia, themselves already a mix but more Siberian-like. But this input would have been almost erased by the CWC-like input in the Baltic countries a litlle later. PWC there = Uralic? Not sure. For Y-haplos I know nothing to date.
    Concerning the question of discrepancies between language, auDNA and Y-haplos, we also can imagine that first Uralic speakers were more 'siberian-like', from farther East, and that after acquisition of Seyma-Turbino metallurgic skills they took the road westwards, assimilating IE females, and "European" mt-DNA and autosomes. Just to say things can hide things, and evidence is not always so evident; but I prefer rely on specialists of Uralic cultures!
    Very interesting comment! Thanks for your input. I think these anthropological findings are basically compatible to what I believe was happening in the centuries before Proto-Uralic proper (not related languages and cultures) started to expand and diverge, which I think happened only after it became highly influenced by CWC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I don't know, I just get the feeling the mutation for blondeness arose around the Baltic and propagated from around there and it took a while to get further to the south.
    the original allele for blond hair did not originate in Europe but in East Eurasia and is found in the +14,000y Afontova Gora 3 specimen.

    The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with and likely causal for blond hair in Europeans [4,5] is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the [Siberian] ANE individual Afontova Gora 3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (1471060 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
    Or, as I will sum this up, "Ancient Gentlemen Preferred Blondes". I am brown haired and brown eyes, yet browsing my 23 and Me chromosomes, I have the recessive alleles for blonde hair and blue eyes so I could pass on this to future generations if I mated with someone homozygous for blonde hair and blue eyes.
    That doesn't explain why other populations didn't become blond. Were ancient southern gentlemen not as fond of blondes?
    blond hair and other light pigmentation traits cannot spread so fast from females, because females can only reproduce once a year and are fertile for a short period of time in life. it must have been blond men breeding dark haired women + possibly sex selective infanticide of male offspring produced with dark women. this may correlate with the absence of R1b-L21 haplotype in Western Yamnaya (setting them apart from their darker cousins in Ukraine) and the appearance of more north/easterly EHG haplotypes such as R1a. in europeans, men have a genotypical skin tone that is on average lighter than european women, and a lower frequency of brown eyes and dark hair colors + a remarkably higher frequency of blue eyes than north european women.


    journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294

    north euro full-suite pigmentation did make it down south fast (and as far east as Northeast Mongolia) but it was reduced to near zero levels after thousands of years of mixing. for example in Israel Chalcolithic:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/anomal...ran-dna-shows/

    as for "recessiveness" it doesn't work that way. your pigmentation alleles are not recessive, you probably just don't have the required number to have blond hair or blue eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    the original allele for blond hair did not originate in Europe but in East Eurasia and is found in the +14,000y Afontova Gora 3 specimen.










    blond hair and other light pigmentation traits cannot spread so fast from females, because females can only reproduce once a year and are fertile for a short period of time in life. it must have been blond men breeding dark haired women + possibly sex selective infanticide of male offspring produced with dark women. this may correlate with the absence of R1b-L21 haplotype in Western Yamnaya (setting them apart from their darker cousins in Ukraine) and the appearance of more north/easterly EHG haplotypes such as R1a. in europeans, men have a genotypical skin tone that is on average lighter than european women, and a lower frequency of brown eyes and dark hair colors + a much higher frequency of blue eyes. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294


    north euro full-suite pigmentation did make it down south fast (and as far east as Northeast Mongolia) but it was reduced to near zero levels after thousands of years of mixing. for example in Israel Chalcolithic:


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/anomal...ran-dna-shows/

    Yes, they killed their swarthy kids. As always you came up with the most plausible explanation. How do you do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yes, they killed their swarthy kids. As always you came up with the most plausible explanation. How do you do it?
    but perhaps only if male. sex selective infanticide is noted in several anthropological documentations of human cultures, and seems to have been especially common in northern latitudes (among aboriginal shamanistic cultures such as those of arctic North America).

    some kind of artificially imposed limitations on the more efficient sex are required for evolution to speed up in such a short period of time. the politically correct and democentric assumption of sexual selectuon as "some people favoring one trait and breeding at will" doesn't work at such speeds, to produce such extra-ordinary things, in the real world. we saw how fast light pigmentation declined in the United States and Western Europe (within "white" ethnic groups) when people tried that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    but perhaps only if male. sex selective infanticide is noted in several anthropological cultures and seems to have been especially common in northern latitudes (among aboriginal shamanistic cultures such as those of arctic North America).
    Boys suffer disproportionate degrees of infant mortality in most tribal societies (due negligence and culling). That's because having many daughters is the easiest way to become wealthy.

    As for blondism, it seems to be associated with settled agriculture at high latitudes - both CW and GAC became light-pigmented within centuries. The autosomally similar nomadic-pastoral Hungarian conquerors in contrast were quite dark still in the Middle Ages.

    Apparently, depigmentation is still in process among Europeans:

    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/30/12/2654/1014645

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Boys suffer disproportionate degrees of infant mortality in most tribal societies (due negligence and culling). That's because having many daughters is the easiest way to become wealthy.
    does not account for speed of evolution in MLBA Eurasia and I need a source for your second overarching statement

    As for blondism, it seems to be associated with settled agriculture at high latitudes - both CW and GAC became light-pigmented within centuries.
    blondism at this stage was the same old rs12821256 mutation from Afontova Gora, which correlates even more strongly with EHG. Motala HGs are the oldest blond population yet sequenced and got their blondism from an EHG source (such as Samara). the "blondest" of them all were the Indo-Iranian steppe pastoralists. Blondism = EHG/ANE.

    The autosomally similar nomadic-pastoral Hungarian conquerors in contrast were quite dark still in the Middle Ages.
    we are dealing with a small number of alleles which do not have an impact on autosomal genomic variation. 21st century white americans are autosomally very similar to 19th century white americans, but much darker. hungarian conquerors were mixed but not necessarily with an autosomally different population (like white Americans)

    Apparently, depigmentation is still in process among Europeans:
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/30/12/2654/1014645
    Not in Western Europeans and white North Americans (ur study concerns southern Euros) who have dropped from over 50% blue eyed to 20% blue eyed in just 100 years (in the USA). would have been close to 95% 1000 years ago. I am talking about the novel full-suite North Euro pigmentation (blu eyes, blond hair, fullest-extent skin pigmentation), not simple light skin, which is everywhere.

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    In HIrisPlex-S rs12821256 isn't required for blondism I think.

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    ^ required or not, it was the "original" blond allele and just what AfontovaGora/Motala/Samara/GAC/CWC/Indo Iranian nomads happened to carry. new blond genes that have arisen long afterward notwithstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    ^ required or not, it was the "original" blond allele and just what AfontovaGora/Motala/Samara/GAC/CWC/Indo Iranian nomads happened to carry. new blond genes that have arisen long afterward notwithstanding.
    Don't think GAC and the blond Hungarian LBK had it. That doesn't mean rs12821256 isn't a strong causal factor in blondism. But the selective pressure was in place among farmers before the introgression.

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    Not all GAC were even light in any regard. a large sample size (by aDNA standards) were almost uniformly dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed.


    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705


    Data on phenotypic traits based on imputed genotypes (Dataset S5) revealed that the individuals had mostly brown eyes, dark or dark-blonde hair, and intermediate to dark skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Not all GAC were even light in any regard. a large sample size (by aDNA standards) were almost uniformly dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705
    Yes, I think the introgression of EHG alleles accelerated the trend towards depigmentation. You see this in northern Baltic CWC, which goes from more or less uniformly dark to uniformly light between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The Siberian contribution here seems extremely small (3-5% peak in the IA). If Uralic came from the east, there must have been some kind of elite dominance.
    or the incoming uralic speakers only had small amounts of siberian ancestry. that could also mean that uralic did not necessarily spread from siberia. but i think lazardis once modeled ancient people from kora as 50% siberian. and sami still have higher amounts of siberian ancestry too. how did haplogroup N reach such a frequency in the baltics without bringing more siberian admixture in the autosomes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Not in Western Europeans and white North Americans (ur study concerns southern Euros) who have dropped from over 50% blue eyed to 20% blue eyed in just 100 years (in the USA). would have been close to 95% 1000 years ago. I am talking about the novel full-suite North Euro pigmentation (blu eyes, blond hair, fullest-extent skin pigmentation), not simple light skin, which is everywhere.
    when we try to analyse internal evolution of some genes distribution we have to do it in an inbreeding pop; it's very not the case for the US which saw a lot of changes in the geographic origin of their latest immigrants, without speaking of different deomgraphy of subgroups among "white" Americans. We cannot infer drift speed based on unstable pops. And the surveys concerning phenotypes were not conducted in the same way, I think, so not very comparable. I doubt they have in th US surveys about the genetic pigmentation of 100 years ago pops. Perhaps you have?

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    Eupedia was mentioned by Razib Khan on gnxp.com:

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    5.01656257 Lithuanian
    5.23910298 Estonian
    5.62605546 Latvian


    Distance to: V9_2
    12.18419468 Latvian
    13.80708876 Finnish_East
    14.72018342 Lithuanian


    Distance to: V8_1
    12.85644197 Danish
    13.63573980 Icelandic
    13.72093291 Swedish


    Distance to: V7_1
    8.96780352 Finnish_East
    9.52254693 Karelian
    10.18165998 Veps


    Distance to: IVLS09KT_1
    5.04062496 Latvian
    5.50057270 Lithuanian
    6.26407216 Estonian


    Distance to: ILS01_1
    7.82924007 Estonian
    8.42123506 Finnish_West
    9.22287916 Lithuanian


    Distance to: IIIt_1
    4.28407516 Latvian
    4.90111212 Lithuanian
    6.05364353 Estonian


    Distance to: IIg_1
    6.67333500 Estonian
    7.29479266 Finnish_West
    7.84891075 Karelian


    Distance to: IIf_1
    3.46323548 Estonian
    3.91945149 Lithuanian
    5.15613227 Latvian


    Distance to: IIa_1
    6.92439167 Finnish_West
    8.00038749 Estonian
    9.52319799 Latvian


    Distance to: 0LS11_1
    13.36786819 Latvian
    15.58689514 Lithuanian
    16.04228163 Finnish_East


    Distance to: 0LS10_1
    5.23468242 Finnish_East
    6.42783789 Karelian
    7.11577122 Veps


    Distance to: 0LS09_1
    8.37142760 Polish_Warmia-Masuria
    8.78802025 Polish
    9.53349359 Sorb_Lusatia


    Distance to: 0LS08_1
    14.48634529 Estonian
    14.54076339 Finnish_West
    15.87410470 Polish_Warmia-Masuria


    Distance to: 0LS07_1
    30.98349722 Latvian
    31.50465362 Finnish_East
    33.13537837 Lithuanian


    Distance to: 0LS03_1
    3.88991002 Finnish_East
    5.24377726 Karelian
    6.42808681 Veps

  17. #42
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,313

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just for fun, I didn't expect to be near any of them.

    Distance to: Jovialis
    45.99478884 X01_1
    46.43634568 X18_1
    48.97498545 VIII7_1
    49.59877418 0LS09_1
    49.87730145 VIII12_1
    51.41644484 V8_1
    54.85165084 IIf_1
    55.61441360 ILS01_1
    56.75822936 IIg_1
    57.04274187 VII4_1
    57.07696208 V10_2
    57.76169492 VIII4_1
    58.16950490 X19_1
    58.47382491 IIIt_1
    58.91643234 VIII6_1
    59.23220577 IIa_1
    59.25235185 IVLS09KT_1
    59.29573087 V7_1
    59.82589072 0LS08_1
    59.93800964 0LS03_1
    60.58137833 V12_1
    60.72285319 0LS10_1
    60.89795974 VII15_1
    61.07142458 X13_1
    61.52200176 VIII9_1
    62.46243911 VIII8_1
    62.77509299 VIII11_1
    63.86524250 X04_1
    64.05198201 V11_1
    65.00953315 X05_1
    65.99912727 X12_1
    66.01279724 VIII10_1
    66.25189809 X08_1
    66.61437833 VII16_1
    66.74341990 X20_1
    67.51816644 V16_1
    67.87745281 X15_2
    68.11342893 VIII5_2
    68.94542407 X11_1
    69.19991402 X14_1
    69.23050700 X17_2
    69.77807464 V9_2
    70.14573615 X09_1
    70.33336833 X10_1
    70.61159749 VII2_1
    71.45256329 0LS11_1
    71.96914895 X02_1
    75.02618210 VII3_1
    75.43451597 X03_1
    77.12347632 X06_1
    77.42277055 V14_2
    83.68355394 X07_1
    85.13075825 0LS07_1
    91.97059095 X16_1

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