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Thread: The Arrival of Siberian Ancestry Connecting the Eastern Baltic to Uralic Speakers fur

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    some of the Second half of twentith Cy Hungarian scientists thought that the basis of the first proto-Uralic speakers, concerning phenotypes, was a 'cromagnoid' pop (Russian meaning), it's to say 'proto-europoid' as an important component of pre-Andronovo people , kind of EHG for us; the admixture with Siberian pops would have occurred later when reaching more Northern regions West of Oural Mountains, admixture which varied in proportions because of different moves later.
    That said, around the 2500's BC during a PWC stage, the crania of people in Estonia and Latvia (very few or almost nothing in Lithuania) became more mesocephalic, with lower and broader faces and more importantly with mostly flatter faces and noses, showing slight so called "mongoloid" input, from the East-Europe Forest zone, phenotypically on the direction of people from Carelia, themselves already a mix but more Siberian-like. But this input would have been almost erased by the CWC-like input in the Baltic countries a litlle later. PWC there = Uralic? Not sure. For Y-haplos I know nothing to date.
    Concerning the question of discrepancies between language, auDNA and Y-haplos, we also can imagine that first Uralic speakers were more 'siberian-like', from farther East, and that after acquisition of Seyma-Turbino metallurgic skills they took the road westwards, assimilating IE females, and "European" mt-DNA and autosomes. Just to say things can hide things, and evidence is not always so evident; but I prefer rely on specialists of Uralic cultures!
    Very interesting comment! Thanks for your input. I think these anthropological findings are basically compatible to what I believe was happening in the centuries before Proto-Uralic proper (not related languages and cultures) started to expand and diverge, which I think happened only after it became highly influenced by CWC.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I don't know, I just get the feeling the mutation for blondeness arose around the Baltic and propagated from around there and it took a while to get further to the south.
    the original allele for blond hair did not originate in Europe but in East Eurasia and is found in the +14,000y Afontova Gora 3 specimen.

    The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with and likely causal for blond hair in Europeans [4,5] is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the [Siberian] ANE individual Afontova Gora 3 which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (1471060 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
    Or, as I will sum this up, "Ancient Gentlemen Preferred Blondes". I am brown haired and brown eyes, yet browsing my 23 and Me chromosomes, I have the recessive alleles for blonde hair and blue eyes so I could pass on this to future generations if I mated with someone homozygous for blonde hair and blue eyes.
    That doesn't explain why other populations didn't become blond. Were ancient southern gentlemen not as fond of blondes?
    blond hair and other light pigmentation traits cannot spread so fast from females, because females can only reproduce once a year and are fertile for a short period of time in life. it must have been blond men breeding dark haired women + possibly sex selective infanticide of male offspring produced with dark women. this may correlate with the absence of R1b-L21 haplotype in Western Yamnaya (setting them apart from their darker cousins in Ukraine) and the appearance of more north/easterly EHG haplotypes such as R1a. in europeans, men have a genotypical skin tone that is on average lighter than european women, and a lower frequency of brown eyes and dark hair colors + a remarkably higher frequency of blue eyes than north european women.


    journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294

    north euro full-suite pigmentation did make it down south fast (and as far east as Northeast Mongolia) but it was reduced to near zero levels after thousands of years of mixing. for example in Israel Chalcolithic:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/anomal...ran-dna-shows/

    as for "recessiveness" it doesn't work that way. your pigmentation alleles are not recessive, you probably just don't have the required number to have blond hair or blue eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    the original allele for blond hair did not originate in Europe but in East Eurasia and is found in the +14,000y Afontova Gora 3 specimen.










    blond hair and other light pigmentation traits cannot spread so fast from females, because females can only reproduce once a year and are fertile for a short period of time in life. it must have been blond men breeding dark haired women + possibly sex selective infanticide of male offspring produced with dark women. this may correlate with the absence of R1b-L21 haplotype in Western Yamnaya (setting them apart from their darker cousins in Ukraine) and the appearance of more north/easterly EHG haplotypes such as R1a. in europeans, men have a genotypical skin tone that is on average lighter than european women, and a lower frequency of brown eyes and dark hair colors + a much higher frequency of blue eyes. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294


    north euro full-suite pigmentation did make it down south fast (and as far east as Northeast Mongolia) but it was reduced to near zero levels after thousands of years of mixing. for example in Israel Chalcolithic:


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/anomal...ran-dna-shows/

    Yes, they killed their swarthy kids. As always you came up with the most plausible explanation. How do you do it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yes, they killed their swarthy kids. As always you came up with the most plausible explanation. How do you do it?
    but perhaps only if male. sex selective infanticide is noted in several anthropological documentations of human cultures, and seems to have been especially common in northern latitudes (among aboriginal shamanistic cultures such as those of arctic North America).

    some kind of artificially imposed limitations on the more efficient sex are required for evolution to speed up in such a short period of time. the politically correct and democentric assumption of sexual selectuon as "some people favoring one trait and breeding at will" doesn't work at such speeds, to produce such extra-ordinary things, in the real world. we saw how fast light pigmentation declined in the United States and Western Europe (within "white" ethnic groups) when people tried that out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    but perhaps only if male. sex selective infanticide is noted in several anthropological cultures and seems to have been especially common in northern latitudes (among aboriginal shamanistic cultures such as those of arctic North America).
    Boys suffer disproportionate degrees of infant mortality in most tribal societies (due negligence and culling). That's because having many daughters is the easiest way to become wealthy.

    As for blondism, it seems to be associated with settled agriculture at high latitudes - both CW and GAC became light-pigmented within centuries. The autosomally similar nomadic-pastoral Hungarian conquerors in contrast were quite dark still in the Middle Ages.

    Apparently, depigmentation is still in process among Europeans:

    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/30/12/2654/1014645

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Boys suffer disproportionate degrees of infant mortality in most tribal societies (due negligence and culling). That's because having many daughters is the easiest way to become wealthy.
    does not account for speed of evolution in MLBA Eurasia and I need a source for your second overarching statement

    As for blondism, it seems to be associated with settled agriculture at high latitudes - both CW and GAC became light-pigmented within centuries.
    blondism at this stage was the same old rs12821256 mutation from Afontova Gora, which correlates even more strongly with EHG. Motala HGs are the oldest blond population yet sequenced and got their blondism from an EHG source (such as Samara). the "blondest" of them all were the Indo-Iranian steppe pastoralists. Blondism = EHG/ANE.

    The autosomally similar nomadic-pastoral Hungarian conquerors in contrast were quite dark still in the Middle Ages.
    we are dealing with a small number of alleles which do not have an impact on autosomal genomic variation. 21st century white americans are autosomally very similar to 19th century white americans, but much darker. hungarian conquerors were mixed but not necessarily with an autosomally different population (like white Americans)

    Apparently, depigmentation is still in process among Europeans:
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/30/12/2654/1014645
    Not in Western Europeans and white North Americans (ur study concerns southern Euros) who have dropped from over 50% blue eyed to 20% blue eyed in just 100 years (in the USA). would have been close to 95% 1000 years ago. I am talking about the novel full-suite North Euro pigmentation (blu eyes, blond hair, fullest-extent skin pigmentation), not simple light skin, which is everywhere.

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    In HIrisPlex-S rs12821256 isn't required for blondism I think.

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    ^ required or not, it was the "original" blond allele and just what AfontovaGora/Motala/Samara/GAC/CWC/Indo Iranian nomads happened to carry. new blond genes that have arisen long afterward notwithstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    ^ required or not, it was the "original" blond allele and just what AfontovaGora/Motala/Samara/GAC/CWC/Indo Iranian nomads happened to carry. new blond genes that have arisen long afterward notwithstanding.
    Don't think GAC and the blond Hungarian LBK had it. That doesn't mean rs12821256 isn't a strong causal factor in blondism. But the selective pressure was in place among farmers before the introgression.

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    Not all GAC were even light in any regard. a large sample size (by aDNA standards) were almost uniformly dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed.


    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705


    Data on phenotypic traits based on imputed genotypes (Dataset S5) revealed that the individuals had mostly brown eyes, dark or dark-blonde hair, and intermediate to dark skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Not all GAC were even light in any regard. a large sample size (by aDNA standards) were almost uniformly dark skinned, dark haired and dark eyed.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705
    Yes, I think the introgression of EHG alleles accelerated the trend towards depigmentation. You see this in northern Baltic CWC, which goes from more or less uniformly dark to uniformly light between the Bronze Age and the Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The Siberian contribution here seems extremely small (3-5% peak in the IA). If Uralic came from the east, there must have been some kind of elite dominance.
    or the incoming uralic speakers only had small amounts of siberian ancestry. that could also mean that uralic did not necessarily spread from siberia. but i think lazardis once modeled ancient people from kora as 50% siberian. and sami still have higher amounts of siberian ancestry too. how did haplogroup N reach such a frequency in the baltics without bringing more siberian admixture in the autosomes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    Not in Western Europeans and white North Americans (ur study concerns southern Euros) who have dropped from over 50% blue eyed to 20% blue eyed in just 100 years (in the USA). would have been close to 95% 1000 years ago. I am talking about the novel full-suite North Euro pigmentation (blu eyes, blond hair, fullest-extent skin pigmentation), not simple light skin, which is everywhere.
    when we try to analyse internal evolution of some genes distribution we have to do it in an inbreeding pop; it's very not the case for the US which saw a lot of changes in the geographic origin of their latest immigrants, without speaking of different deomgraphy of subgroups among "white" Americans. We cannot infer drift speed based on unstable pops. And the surveys concerning phenotypes were not conducted in the same way, I think, so not very comparable. I doubt they have in th US surveys about the genetic pigmentation of 100 years ago pops. Perhaps you have?

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