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Thread: The Arrival of Siberian Ancestry Connecting the Eastern Baltic to Uralic Speakers fur

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    The Arrival of Siberian Ancestry Connecting the Eastern Baltic to Uralic Speakers fur


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    Table 1 Archaeological Information, Genetic Sex, mtDNA and Y Chromosome Haplogroups, and Average Coverage of the Individuals of This Study
    Individual Location Period Date Sex MT hg Y hg Av. cov.
    Morph. Gen.
    X02 Iru, Harju, EST BA 1090–910 BC a M XY T1a1b R1a 0.031
    0LS11 Jõelähtme, Harju, EST BA 1060–850 BC a M XY H1c R1a1 0.214
    V9 Jõelähtme, Harju, EST BA 1220–1010 BC a M XY K1c1h R1a1’2 0.474
    V14 Muuksi, Harju, EST BA 1280–1050 BC a M XY U2e2a1 R1a1’2 0.443
    X05 Muuksi, Harju, EST BA 1210–1010 BC a M XY T2a1b1a1 R1a1’2 0.029
    X08 Muuksi, Harju, EST BA 930–810 BC a M XY T2a1b1a2 R1a1c 0.306
    X09 Muuksi, Harju, EST BA 820–770 BC a M XY J1b1a R1a <0.017
    X10 Muuksi, Harju, EST BA 1220–1020 BC a M XY U5a2a1 R1a1’2 0.22
    X11 Napa, Ida-Viru, EST BA 1030–890 BC a M XY J1c2k R1a 0.224
    X12 Napa, Ida-Viru, EST BA 900–790 BC a M XY W6 R1a1’6 0.023
    X13 Rebala, Harju, EST BA 780–480 BC a M ? K1b2a <0.017
    X14 Rebala, Harju, EST BA 780–430 BC a M XY H1b2 R1a1c 0.307
    V16 Väo, Harju, EST BA 730–390 BC a M XY H1b2 R1a1’2 0.22
    X16 Väo, Harju, EST BA 1080–910 BC a M? XY J1c4 R1a 0.018
    X17 Väo, Harju, EST BA 930–810 BC a M XY U4a2b R1a1c 0.387
    X18 Väo, Harju, EST BA? 1200 BC–… b M XY U3b2a ? <0.017
    X19 Väo, Harju, EST BA 1200–400 BC b ? XX U <0.017
    X20 Väo, Harju, EST BA 900–800 BC a ? XY U4a2b R1a 0.085
    X15 Vehendi, Tartu, EST BA 1210–1000 BC a M? XY U5b1b1 R1a1c 0.339
    0LS09 Ilmandu, Harju, EST IA 540–380 BC a F XX H6a1a <0.017
    V7 Ilmandu, Harju, EST IA 790–430 BC a M XY T2a1b1a1 R1a <0.017
    V8 Ilmandu, Harju, EST IA 730–400 BC c M? XX HV0 <0.017
    0LS10 Kunda, Lääne-Viru, EST IA 770–430 BC c M XY H13a1a1a N3a3′5 0.319
    V10 Kunda, Lääne-Viru, EST IA 790–430 BC a M XY H1a R1a1c 0.403
    V11 Kurevere, Saare, EST IA 390–200 BC a M? XX W3a1d 0.277
    V12 Kurevere, Saare, EST IA 360–40 BC a M? XY I1a1c N3a3a 0.245
    X04 Loona, Saare, EST IA 480–360 BC a M XY H1c R1a1’2 0.256
    VII3 Poanse, Pärnu, EST IA 380–180 BC a M XY U5a1d ? <0.017
    VII4 Võhma, Lääne-Viru, EST IA 760–400 BC a M XY T1a1b N3a3a 0.342
    VII15 Kerstovo, Ingria, RUS IA 45 BC–77 AD a ? XY U5a2a1 R1a 0.244
    VIII7 Kerstovo, Ingria, RUS IA 75–200 AD b ? XX H2a1a 0.062
    VIII8 Kerstovo, Ingria, RUS IA 75–200 AD b ? XY H3h R1a1c 0.0517
    VIII9 Kerstovo, Ingria, RUS IA 75–200 AD b ? XX U4a2 0.3
    VIII5 Malli, Ingria, RUS IA 75–300 AD b ? XX T1a1b 0.398
    IIa Karja, Saare, EST MA 1230–1300 AD b M XY H3h1 N3a3a 0.734
    0LS03 Kukruse, Ida-Viru, EST MA 1180–1220/1240 AD b M XY U4d1 R1a1a’b 0.0696
    IVLS09KT Mäletjärve, Tartu, EST MA 1570–1600 AD b M XY H2a1 J2b2 0.332
    IIf Otepää, Valga, EST MA 1360–1390 AD b M XY T2b N3a3a 0.206
    IIg Pada, Lääne-Viru, EST MA 1210–1230/1240 AD b M XY U4a2b N3a3a 0.102
    IIIt Vaabina, Võru, EST MA 1250–1450 AD b F XX U5a2a1 0.0413
    ILS01 Vana-Kuuste, Tartu, EST MA 1500–1625 AD b M XY H11a1 R1a 0.0827
    See also Figure S3, Tables S1 and S2, and Data S2. <0.017, not included in autosomal analyses; Av. cov., average genomic coverage; BA, Bronze Age; EST, Estonia; F, female; Gen., genetic; IA, Iron Age; M, male; MA, Middle Ages; Morph., morphological; MT hg, mtDNA haplogroup; RUS, Russia; Y hg, Y chromosome haplogroup.
    a 14C date; calibrated using OxCal v4.2.4 [27] and IntCal13 atmospheric curve [28]
    b Typo-chronological date
    c Combined 14C date of multiple dates using OxCal v4.2.4 [27] R_combine; calibrated using OxCal v4.2.4 [27] and IntCal13 atmospheric curve [28]

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    The Siberian contribution here seems extremely small (3-5% peak in the IA). If Uralic came from the east, there must have been some kind of elite dominance.

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    Haplogroup N3a was absent in Baltic Bronze Age males but three Baltic Iron Age males belonged to N3a. The genetic transition from R1a to N3a took place around 5,000 years ago with the arrival of Finno-Ugric speakers from Siberia. Three additional modern males from the region after the Iron Age also carried hg N3a (6 out of 15 males overall after the BA-IA transition.)




    We identified chrY hgs for 30 male individuals (Tables 1 and S2; STAR Methods). All 16 successfully haplogrouped EstBA males belonged to hg R1a, showing no change from the CWC period, when this was also the only chrY lineage detected in the Eastern Baltic [11, 13, 30, 31]. Three EstIA and two IngIA individuals also belonged to hg R1a, but three EstIA males belonged to hg N3a, the earliest so far observed in the Eastern Baltic. Three EstMA individuals belonged to hg N3a, two to hg R1a, and one to hg J2b. ChrY lineages found in the Baltic Sea region before the CWC belong to hgs I, R1b, R1a5, and Q [10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 32]. Thus, it appears that these lineages were substantially replaced in the Eastern Baltic by hg R1a [10, 11, 12, 13], most likely through steppe migrations from the east [30, 31]. Although we did not detect N3a chrYs in our BA sample, unlike in BA Fennoscandia [26], we cannot rule out its presence due to small sample size. However, the frequency should not exceed 0.17 with 95% and 0.25 with 99% confidence [33]. The frequency of hg N3a was significantly higher in our IA than our BA group (Fisher’s exact test p value 0.013). Our results enable us to conclude that, although the expansion time for R1a1 and N3a3′5 in Eastern Europe is similar [25], hg N3a likely reached Estonia or at least became comparably frequent to modern Estonia [1] only during the BA-IA transition.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    the increase of WHG ancestry from CWC to BA samples could not be the product of local fussion?

    So N carried Uralic languages, then R1a the Baltoslavic branch?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    See also: Phys.org: Ancient DNA suggests that some Northern Europeans got their languages from Siberia.
    https://phys.org/news/2019-05-ancien...languages.html

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    delete.......

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Good study and it debunks these weird theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture).

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    J2b2 definitely linked with post-neolithic Pontic Steppe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Good study and it debunks these weird theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture).
    yes, it was weird and now well rejected, but even more weird is how he reacts about the new data: pitable denial and bizarre hocus pocus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    yes, it was weird and now well rejected, but even more weird is how he reacts about the new data: pitable denial and bizarre hocus pocus.
    He also doesn't seem to mention the recent Iranian steppe papers with lots of R1a and no R1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Good study and it debunks these weird theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture).
    His theory about the Slavs migrating to the Balkans in the Medieval been predominantly E-V13 while no mentioning of R1a or I2a1 at all is also very weird...

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    Although he does make cogent points about Bohemia being an early center of West Slavic dispersal; the first appearance of Slavic Wendish tribes in Germany is in the borderlands of Thuringia during the 600s, which likely included members of my clade R1a-YP445, judging from its present distribution. He also wrote a piece about Battle-Axe being Finnic and gave a detailed description of his theory of the development of the words for 'seal' in German languages as well as Finnic dialects, but I couldn't absorb it because I kept thinking of the Selke Trophy in hockey (because of the early root; think 'selkies' in Scotland) which my favorite player has won several times.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Good study and it debunks these weird theories that Carlos from indo-european.eu believes in (about Finno-Ugric Corded Ware culture).
    But we still don't know where CWC R1a came from. Yamna has no R1a, and CWC has no connection with sintashta archaeologically.

    the presence of a
    291 genetic component associated with Caucasus hunter-gatherers and later with people
    292 representing the Yamnaya Culture in Eastern hunter-gatherers and Estonian CCC individuals
    293 means that the expansion of the CWC cannot be seen as the sole means for the spread of this
    294 genetic component, at least in Eastern Europe. The transition to intensive farming and animal
    295 husbandry in Estonia, which took place a few thousand years after the farming transition in
    296 many other parts of Europe, was conveyed by the CWC individuals and involved an influx of
    297 new genetic material. These people carried a clear Steppe ancestry with some minor Anatolian298 contribution, most likely absorbed through female lineages during the population movements.


    All four of the Estonian CWC individuals could be assigned to the R1a-Z645 sub-clade of hg165 R1a-M417 which together with N is one of the most common Y chromosome haplogroups inpresent-day Estonians (33%)44 166 . Importantly, this R1a lineage is only distantly related to the 167 R1a5 lineage we found in the CCC sample.


    Our results support the hypothesis that individuals associated with the CCC hunter-gatherers in286 Estonia were genetically most similar to Eastern hunter-gatherers from Karelia, a region further287 east from Estonia.




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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    In my opinion it's mostly an indirect connection (a "coincidence" of sorts) that caused the relationship between the spread of Siberian ancestry and the Uralic languages' expansion. IMO they were originally a later derivation of the Lyalovo suset of the Comb Ceramic culture in the area roughly between the Oka and Kama rivers, developingo into the Fatyanovo-Balanovo and Abashevo-influenced Volosovo culture, which would help explain the fact that many Uralic branches have so much linguistic IE and genetic CWC-like influence. In that region Proto-Uralic would've developed originally in a mostly EHG (with some WHG mixed in too), but by the time of its expansion they would've absorbed a disproportionately male genetic impact of a Siberian people (bringing clades of N haplogroup). They would've absorbed them instead of shifting their language and culture entirely because of them. However, since that haplogroup and that Siberian ancestry was rare or nonexistant to the west of their homeland in the Oka-Kama/Urals region, they would've become their distinctive "trademark" even though the origin of the language and most of their genetics was not in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    In my opinion it's mostly an indirect connection (a "coincidence" of sorts) that caused the relationship between the spread of Siberian ancestry and the Uralic languages' expansion. IMO they were originally a later derivation of the Lyalovo suset of the Comb Ceramic culture in the area roughly between the Oka and Kama rivers, developingo into the Fatyanovo-Balanovo and Abashevo-influenced Volosovo culture, which would help explain the fact that many Uralic branches have so much linguistic IE and genetic CWC-like influence. In that region Proto-Uralic would've developed originally in a mostly EHG (with some WHG mixed in too), but by the time of its expansion they would've absorbed a disproportionately male genetic impact of a Siberian people (bringing clades of N haplogroup). They would've absorbed them instead of shifting their language and culture entirely because of them. However, since that haplogroup and that Siberian ancestry was rare or nonexistant to the west of their homeland in the Oka-Kama/Urals region, they would've become their distinctive "trademark" even though the origin of the language and most of their genetics was not in them.
    Doesn't PU have Indo-Iranian loans? That would make homeland in CCC unlikely imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Doesn't PU have Indo-Iranian loans? That would make homeland in CCC unlikely imho.
    Maybe I phrased my opinion incorrectly. I meant that I think Volosovo or maybe the direct ancestor of it was Proto-Uralic (I knew the name, but right now I forgot it, sorry, maybe someone else can help my memory, lol), which would've got its language from the language family of Comb Ceramic, and it would then have come from a EHG language already spoken in Northeastern Europe since the Mesolithic. But the II loans might've come during the initial expansion of PU branches in and after Volosovo. Do you think it is also possible that the neighboring Garino-Bor to the east of them was linguistically related to Volosovo? I sometimes think Volosovo is a bit too late for Common PU, so Volosovo could be related to "western" dialects, and Garino-Bor to an "eastern" expansion of PU (maybe the proto-proto-language of Samoyedic?), both of them deriving their language from an earlier unified PU stage.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...h-fog-wrought/

    Razib Khan chimes in, with Maciamo's map of N1c in the article.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...h-fog-wrought/

    Razib Khan chimes in, with Maciamo's map of N1c in the article.
    I think this is pretty clear:
    "Additionally, ancient DNA suggests that the arrival of this ‘eastern’ Uralic mediated ancestry seems to date to the early Iron Age. The hypothesis that the Finnic languages were primal to Baltic Europe, is on shaky ground which has cracked open. Rather, the circumstantial evidence is that Finnic languages replaced Indo-European dialects."

    So is the following. The "Northern European Phenotype" which figures so prominently in discussions of population genetics (although clearly not all northern Europeans are blonde and blue eyed) developed rather late, was not at modern levels even in the Bronze Age, and was not "brought" to "Europe" by the Indo-Europeans. The original steppe people were darker than modern Europeans, and if groups like Andronovo were relatively lighter, although also not at modern levels, it's because of genetic material picked up somewhere else.

    The bigger, more surprising, though not entirely so, implication of this paper is that the Nordic phenotype was not brought to the north by a new people, but that it developed in situ through the mixing of peoples. The evidence from this, and other, papers is that Northern Europeans in the Bronze-Age were considerably darker in complexion and mien than they are today. That selection between the Bronze Age and the present has resulted in a sweeping up in frequencies of derived alleles which are strongly correlated with lighter skin, along with selection in other traits considered typical of Northern Europeans, such as the ability to digest milk sugar."


    His map is interesting and clearly shows what happened to pigmentation in the Northeastern Europe over time.


    "Compare this chart to the one at the top. Between the Bronze Age and the Estonian Middle Ages, and therefore the modern period, the genome-wide changes have been subtle. But for lactase persistence and many of the pigmentation loci, there has been a substantial change without substantial gene flow (and, the East Asian Finnic ancestry likely introduced “dark” alleles, as one can see ancestral copies of SLC24A5 in Finns).Lactase persistence is interesting because cattle culture in Europe precedes this allele by thousands of years. Likely Pre-Indo-European farmers seem to have utilized cheese (which has lower sugar content)."

    "Looking at the detailed SNPs, there are ancestral copies of both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 variants which are extremely rare in the area today into the Iron Age."

    To return to a discussion we had here on what effect the Beaker people had phenotypically on Britain, yes, they seem to have brought more light eyes, and 45A2 to Britain, but they did not look like modern British people.


    He does charts for other parts of Europe as well, i.e. Britain and Iberia, from which we have a lot of samples. It's well worth a look.

    The most interesting question is why. He says he doesn't know, and I certainly don't.

    Of course, he has to do deal with you know whom.

    "Update: A reader of this weblog has pointed out that there is strong evidence that Northern European pigmentation profiles were all over the steppe and forest-steppe by the Bronze Age. Some of the data support that. But when I look closely at the steppe societies such as the Srubna, it is not clear at all that that was the case. For example, a derived SNP at SLC45A2 is close to fixed in modern northern Europeans, rs16891982 (~98%). The frequency is lower in Southern Europeans, closer to ~90%. In the Srubna and related groups, it is closer to 75%. In the Bell Beaker samples from Britain and Central Europe, it is closer to 65%. The frequency is lower in European farmers, but I don’t see the math working proportion-wise for Corded Ware Culture type ancestry with a dilution of EEF leading to a drop from ~100% to 65%.Additionally, the Estonian CWC samples in the Reich data are ancestral, not derived.
    Basically, there was a lot of heterogeneity. Even amongst groups that were similar on genome-wide terms.
    (also note that the derived allele was already present at ~25% among Neolithic farmers)"

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    Or, as I will sum this up, "Ancient Gentlemen Preferred Blondes". I am brown haired and brown eyes, yet browsing my 23 and Me chromosomes, I have the recessive alleles for blonde hair and blue eyes so I could pass on this to future generations if I mated with someone homozygous for blonde hair and blue eyes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Or, as I will sum this up, "Ancient Gentlemen Preferred Blondes". I am brown haired and brown eyes, yet browsing my 23 and Me chromosomes, I have the recessive alleles for blonde hair and blue eyes so I could pass on this to future generations if I mated with someone homozygous for blonde hair and blue eyes.
    That doesn't explain why other populations didn't become blond. Were ancient southern gentlemen not as fond of blondes?

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    I don't know, I just get the feeling the mutation for blondeness arose around the Baltic and propagated from around there and it took a while to get further to the south.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    so drinking milk whites skin, eyes and hair, LOL.

    I'm worring for white supremacists and the effect of chocolat in the next generations... ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    In my opinion it's mostly an indirect connection (a "coincidence" of sorts) that caused the relationship between the spread of Siberian ancestry and the Uralic languages' expansion. IMO they were originally a later derivation of the Lyalovo suset of the Comb Ceramic culture in the area roughly between the Oka and Kama rivers, developingo into the Fatyanovo-Balanovo and Abashevo-influenced Volosovo culture, which would help explain the fact that many Uralic branches have so much linguistic IE and genetic CWC-like influence. In that region Proto-Uralic would've developed originally in a mostly EHG (with some WHG mixed in too), but by the time of its expansion they would've absorbed a disproportionately male genetic impact of a Siberian people (bringing clades of N haplogroup). They would've absorbed them instead of shifting their language and culture entirely because of them. However, since that haplogroup and that Siberian ancestry was rare or nonexistant to the west of their homeland in the Oka-Kama/Urals region, they would've become their distinctive "trademark" even though the origin of the language and most of their genetics was not in them.
    some of the Second half of twentith Cy Hungarian scientists thought that the basis of the first proto-Uralic speakers, concerning phenotypes, was a 'cromagnoid' pop (Russian meaning), it's to say 'proto-europoid' as an important component of pre-Andronovo people , kind of EHG for us; the admixture with Siberian pops would have occurred later when reaching more Northern regions West of Oural Mountains, admixture which varied in proportions because of different moves later.
    That said, around the 2500's BC during a PWC stage, the crania of people in Estonia and Latvia (very few or almost nothing in Lithuania) became more mesocephalic, with lower and broader faces and more importantly with mostly flatter faces and noses, showing slight so called "mongoloid" input, from the East-Europe Forest zone, phenotypically on the direction of people from Carelia, themselves already a mix but more Siberian-like. But this input would have been almost erased by the CWC-like input in the Baltic countries a litlle later. PWC there = Uralic? Not sure. For Y-haplos I know nothing to date.
    Concerning the question of discrepancies between language, auDNA and Y-haplos, we also can imagine that first Uralic speakers were more 'siberian-like', from farther East, and that after acquisition of Seyma-Turbino metallurgic skills they took the road westwards, assimilating IE females, and "European" mt-DNA and autosomes. Just to say things can hide things, and evidence is not always so evident; but I prefer rely on specialists of Uralic cultures!

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