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Thread: What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Pre-print is where the papers initially go for review to look for errors. It is not coincidence, nor is this a conspiracy this is science, scientists don't set out with a theory and then look for evidence, they acquire data and then build from there. I've looked through the Y-calls and they are really quite inconsistent there are some that are consistent but that is because they follow phylogeny well (and they are high quality samples), some are somewhat questionable others are extremely questionable. It's not about belief here, it's about the data and the reads and probabilities and how a new computer program (by new I mean very new) interpreted the data. Anyway this paper with its corrections has gone through peer review (the data currently out on bioXriv is NOT the new stuff that is set to be released) and it will be published eventually, it could be as long as 6 months.

    We will always find samples that present low coverage, damage, etc. due to the nature of genetic material (it degrades over time) and the chemical processes that human bodies undergo when buried in various types of soil or other materials, we know some soils are acidic and they damage the DNA if not entirely destroying it. Damaged DNA can cause incorrect sequence reads due to the damage (it can alter how the nucleobases are interpreted), there are many studies where some samples are reported with no haplogroups at all due to the damage, or are given very basal calls due to the damage and being unnable to read the bases along the "strands".

    Anyway,

    Some of the calls that ARE consistent are S8505.E1.L1., S8504.E1.L1., I6550, I6549, I1784, S8524.E1.L1., I2927, I2128, S8194.E1.L1., I6553, I3262, I1985, and many others

    Some of the inconsistent calls are S8527.E1.L1., Darra-i Kur, S8998.E1.L1., I1003, I1992 etc. to name a few of them.
    What if they confirm this haplogroup in Afghanistan and Pakistan and it is found in several other ancient skeletons in this region too? Does it prove the Germanic people lived here in the ancient times? Or it also proves nothing?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Nordic bronze age culture is the base of Germanic culture in Europe but the Germanic culture itself came through Halstatt culture and they were combined in the Jastrof culture about 500 BC, it can be said Germanic men married Nordic women!
    About mtDNA haplogroup U7:
    We read in Wikipedia: Genetic analysis of individuals associated with the Late Hallstatt culture from Baden-W�rttemberg Germany considered to be examples of Iron Age "princely burials" included haplogroup U7. Haplogroup U7 was reported to have been found in 1200-year-old human remains (dating to around 834), in a woman believed to be from a royal clan who was buried with the Viking Oseberg Ship in Norway. Haplogroup U7 was found in 1000-year-old human remains (dating to around AD 1000-1250) in a Christian cemetery is Kongemarken Denmark. However, U7 is rare among present-day ethnic Scandinavians.
    There could indeed be a certain Hallstatt influence, but I'm of North Dutch descent and I plot right into the Nordic LNBA cluster. There was some Saxon influx (Jastorf-heirs) but they didn't replace the indigenous population all the way, the resemblance in genetic profile is already from LNBA times.

    The Hallstatt genetic influence is big in Belgium/ South Dutch/Southwest Germany/Northern France that's not Germanic core area.

    At the core of the (proto) Germanic genetic profile stands not Hallstatt but Funnelbeaker and Single Grave/Bell Beaker admixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I didn't know Europe is too large! Anyway whether from Anatolia or Pontic Steppe (both of them are not far from Iran) I believe a branch of proto-Indo-Europeans came to Iran and created proto-Germanic language and from this land they migrated to the north of Europe.
    So in fact I'm an Iranian in disguise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    So in fact I'm an Iranian in disguise?
    Some people from Europe came to Iran, created the Germanic culture and came back, it can't mean that you are Iranian.

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    What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Some people from Europe came to Iran, created the Germanic culture and came back, it can't mean that you are Iranian.
    Looks nonsens to me. The Germanic culture was not ready made imported from Iran.
    It evolved in the first place, like for the most parts of Europe, out of HG, EEF and Steppe pastoralist. In the Germanic case it evolved out of Neolithic Funnelbeaker and LN/BA Single Grave/Bell Beaker. This evolved on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia in Iron Age to what the Roman labeled as Germanic. If we want to pin point it than the Jastorf culture the first Germanic culture. But the Jastorf culture was no 'Iranian imported Germanic' culture. See no reason why....
    No beem me up Scotty.....;)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY9NkYGUEyE
    Last edited by Northener; 29-05-19 at 23:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What if they confirm this haplogroup in Afghanistan and Pakistan and it is found in several other ancient skeletons in this region too? Does it prove the Germanic people lived here in the ancient times? Or it also proves nothing?!
    Of course it proves nothing, because these samples date to several centuries after the same clades and their upstream parent clades were already found in Europe. Besides the autosomal admixture that appears together with them in the very same age is European, more specifically Steppe_MLBA. Similarly, other clades of R1a and R1b first found in Eastern Europe started to appear at that very same time in South-Central Asia, having appeared earlier in North-Central Asia - and always together with the appearance of some amount of Steppe_EMBA or Steppe_MLBA autosomal admixture. Thus, anyone linking the dots chronologically and geographically will conclude that, even if those haplogroups were found in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the LBA/EIA, they had logically come from Eastern Europe via North-Central Asia.

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    When you want to look at the Indo-European component in the Germanic culture initially brought in by Corded Ware (Single Grave Culture) people than Davidski has made this connection....not exactly Iran but still.

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/...ine-twins.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Read this blog of Davidski, it's very clear that the genetic profile of Nordic Bronze (LNBA) is basically the cluster (=origin) that formed the Germans of the Iron Age and later.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...ronze-age.html
    To be fair I think Eurogenes is interpreting the PCA data and his pretty restricted models (very few reference populations) in a way that is too literal and IMHO a bit implausible, as if the premise was one of strong isolation of Scandinavia from the rest of North Europe even. The neighboring populations around Scandinavia were already very similar genetically, so unless you really use a higher-resolution analysis, you won't detect possible demographic and sociocultural/ethnic changes from LN/EBA to the IA. If linguists are right then Germanic must've arisen from a complex and close interaction of a language group closer to Balto-Slavic with an influential language group closer to Italo-Celtic. As Eurogenes admit, there are other models that can get just as good fits or in fact even better, spectacular ones, but he claims that "they are not necessary to explain the genetic makeup of the Nordic population after the BA" or something like that. Okay, not necessary, but should it be? We should try to be realistic, and I don't think expecting virtually no gene flow with other North European regions even during the expansive Nordic BA period is realistic. Admixture events involving very similar populations, in different proportions and intensities, could well end up creating a population that would plot pretty much in the same spot on a PCA. Some of my admittedly flawed nMonte models using Global 25 population samples can be best modeled using mainly a mix of BB (particularly Britain and Netherlands, i.e. northern BB) and CWC (particularly Germany, i.e. western CWC) reference admixtures.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you read here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....sian-DNA-Paper

    Central and South Asian DNA Paper

    Its finally out!!!

    The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia
    Next time you post an obvious lie here to try to lead other members to mistakes in order to advance your pet agenda, you will receive an infraction, okay? You're so obsessed with nitpicking anything that could give a modicum of credibility to your hypothesis that you're starting to act in an irresponsible and dishonest way. Quit that now, Cyrus. Even the seemingly most absurd hypothesis and points of view can be discussed here, but not outright lies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Looks nonsens to me. The Germanic culture was not ready made imported from Iran.
    It evolved in the first place, like for the most parts of Europe, out of HG, EEF and Steppe pastoralist. In the Germanic case it evolved out of Neolithic Funnelbeaker and LN/BA Single Grave/Bell Beaker. This evolved on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia in Iron Age to what the Roman labeled as Germanic. If we want to pin point it than the Jastorf culture the first Germanic culture. But the Jastorf culture was no 'Iranian imported Germanic' culture. See no reason why....
    No beem me up Scotty.....;)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY9NkYGUEyE
    I meant Germanic language, I am really interested to know that is there something in the Germanic culture which doesn't exist in the Iranian culture, especially those ones which don't exist in other Indo-European cultures?

    Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams

    http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC

    For example look at page 180:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I meant Germanic language, I am really interested to know that is there something in the Germanic culture which doesn't exist in the Iranian culture, especially those ones which don't exist in other Indo-European cultures?

    Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture By J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams

    http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC

    For example look at page 180:
    You talk about language but your 'evidence' is mythology. As said there is some Indo-European mythological (and genetic) connection. But loose not 1:1 as you seem to suppose.

    Germanic (just like Slavic, Celtic or you name it) is an unique historical phenomenon, bound to a certain area, a product of mixtures. No Gutian tribes that travelled a few ;) miles and popped up as Jutes or Goths. That's outdated nineteenth century stuff.

    What the difference is, I guess the Gernanic language is evident not Iranian like. So besides some Indo-European common traces this all has no single ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Of course it proves nothing, because these samples date to several centuries after the same clades and their upstream parent clades were already found in Europe. Besides the autosomal admixture that appears together with them in the very same age is European, more specifically Steppe_MLBA. Similarly, other clades of R1a and R1b first found in Eastern Europe started to appear at that very same time in South-Central Asia, having appeared earlier in North-Central Asia - and always together with the appearance of some amount of Steppe_EMBA or Steppe_MLBA autosomal admixture. Thus, anyone linking the dots chronologically and geographically will conclude that, even if those haplogroups were found in Afghanistan and Pakistan in the LBA/EIA, they had logically come from Eastern Europe via North-Central Asia.
    I didn't get what you mean, do you mean R1b-U106 is not a Germanic haplogroup and if it is found in other lands, whether in the west Asia or Europe, it can't mean that they are a Germanic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    You talk about language but your 'evidence' is mythology. As said there is some Indo-European mythological (and genetic) connection. But loose not 1:1 as you seem to suppose.

    Germanic (just like Slavic, Celtic or you name it) is an unique historical phenomenon, bound to a certain area, a product of mixtures. No Gutian tribes that travelled a few ;) miles and popped up as Jutes or Goths. That's outdated nineteenth century stuff.

    What the difference is, I guess the Gernanic language is evident not Iranian like. So besides some Indo-European common traces this all has no single ground.
    Germanic language didn't exist in the north of Europe before 500 BC, other than genetic evidences that we are talking about it here, we should also trace the Germanic culture to know where this language was spoken before 500 BC.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Germanic language didn't exist in the north of Europe before 500 BC, other than genetic evidences that we are talking about it here, we should also trace the Germanic culture to know where this language was spoken before 500 BC.
    And as if there are no sources, no records, no books of that period, everyone can project it's own pet theory on it. Of course there will be some or more than some Indo-European influences, but that doesn't mean this all leads restrictive to Iran or the Iranian language. Or in real German all "schwärmerei".
    Last edited by Northener; 30-05-19 at 21:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I didn't get what you mean, do you mean R1b-U106 is not a Germanic haplogroup and if it is found in other lands, whether in the west Asia or Europe, it can't mean that they are a Germanic people?
    I meant that chronology matters, so the direction of the genetic flow is obvious if autosomal admixtures and parental markers are disbuted in time and space and appear first in some place and only much later pop up in other place with the same genetic characteristics not just found earlier elsewhere, but also derived from earlier admixtures and lineages also found in that other place. If R1b-U106 appears together with a previously nonexistant European-derived Steppe_MLBA ancestry in a place (Pakistan, Afghanistan) only centuries after it was found in Europe, and there is a striking chronological concomitance between the arrival of that haplogroup and the arrival of a clearly European genetic signal that didn't exist there before... then, well, what do you think that suggests to us? Of course, that U106 arrived in South-Central Asia in the BA and as late as the IA, just like other haplogroups and just like the BA steppe admixture, and that it came via Central Asia from Europe. If you don't understand even that, then it's a lost case, indeed.

    And no, U106 is not a literal "Germanic haplogroup" since its inception. There isn't such a thing. It's just a haplogroup that, probably because of several factors of genetic drift, became particularly common in the population that would later form the Proto-Germanic speakers. U106 is correlated with Germanic speakers, but it is obvious that haplogroups are not languages, and people have always moved and shifted their language, so males with U106 could've spoken any number of languages in the past (though probably not most of them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Germanic language didn't exist in the north of Europe before 500 BC, other than genetic evidences that we are talking about it here, we should also trace the Germanic culture to know where this language was spoken before 500 BC.
    Tell me one sole scientifically sound reason to claim that the Germanic language didn't exist in the north of Europe before 500 B.C. And please don't tell me that it is because Proto-Germanic has been estimated to have been spoken around 500 B.C. duh!, because that would be a confession of total ignorance about even the most basic aspects of historical linguistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I meant that chronology matters, so the direction of the genetic flow is obvious if autosomal admixtures and parental markers are disbuted in time and space and appear first in some place and only much later pop up in other place with the same genetic characteristics not just found earlier elsewhere, but also derived from earlier admixtures and lineages also found in that other place. If R1b-U106 appears together with a previously nonexistant European-derived Steppe_MLBA ancestry in a place (Pakistan, Afghanistan) only centuries after it was found in Europe, and there is a striking chronological concomitance between the arrival of that haplogroup and the arrival of a clearly European genetic signal that didn't exist there before... then, well, what do you think that suggests to us? Of course, that U106 arrived in South-Central Asia in the BA and as late as the IA, just like other haplogroups and just like the BA steppe admixture, and that it came via Central Asia from Europe. If you don't understand even that, then it's a lost case, indeed.

    And no, U106 is not a literal "Germanic haplogroup" since its inception. There isn't such a thing. It's just a haplogroup that, probably because of several factors of genetic drift, became particularly common in the population that would later form the Proto-Germanic speakers. U106 is correlated with Germanic speakers, but it is obvious that haplogroups are not languages, and people have always moved and shifted their language, so males with U106 could've spoken any number of languages in the past (though probably not most of them).
    As you said haplogroups are not languages, so it is possible male with U106 were originally a non-Indo-European people in the north of Europe, they migrated to the Caspian steppe and adopted an IE language and then they came to Iran and created proto-Germanic language and then came back to Europe. What is wrong about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Tell me one sole scientifically sound reason to claim that the Germanic language didn't exist in the north of Europe before 500 B.C. And please don't tell me that it is because Proto-Germanic has been estimated to have been spoken around 500 B.C. duh!, because that would be a confession of total ignorance about even the most basic aspects of historical linguistics.
    OK, for example I believe θ(th) didn't exist in the north of Europe before the arrival of proto-Germanic language in 500 BC, now please show evidences that this sound existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you said haplogroups are not languages, so it is possible male with U106 were originally a non-Indo-European people in the north of Europe, they migrated to the Caspian steppe and adopted an IE language and then they came to Iran and created proto-Germanic language and then came back to Europe. What is wrong about it?
    Answer: lack of any evidence, especially if you consider - as you should - the chronology of events. Science cannot be based on mere hypothetical possibility. Your hypothesis is predicated on an increasingly flimsy argument, which is that Proto-Germanic language and culture were imposed onto much of Northern Europe, but that left negligible or nonexistant impact in the overall ancestry of the population (since BA or IA Iranian admixture really does not exist in ancient or modern DNA samples from that region).

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Answer: lack of any evidence, especially if you consider - as you should - the chronology of events. Science cannot be based on mere hypothetical possibility. Your hypothesis is predicated on an increasingly flimsy argument, which is that Proto-Germanic language and culture were imposed onto much of Northern Europe, but that left negligible or nonexistant impact in the overall ancestry of the population (since BA or IA Iranian admixture really does not exist in ancient or modern DNA samples from that region).
    Would you please tell me what BA or IA Iranian admixture does not exist in ancient or modern DNA samples from Northern Europe? People who live in the west of Iran and north of Europe have these haplogroups: R1b, R1a, I, E1b1b, J, Q, G, N. And almost all European haplogroups are subclades of Iranian ones.

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    What about haplogroup J2 in Scandinavia:


    It doesn't seem to be J2b:



    What is it?

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    Here is what experienced genetics buffs think of the matter :

    This is how things look in a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of Northern European genetic variation based on my Global25 test. Strikingly, Nordic_MN_B, SWE_Battle_Axe, Nordic_LN and Nordic_BA more or less recapitulate the cluster made up of present-day Swedish samples.
    From this page : http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...ronze-age.html

    In plain English : there has been NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE GENETIC MAKEUP OF GERMANIC POPULATIONS SINCE THE BRONZE AGE. Their DNA today is basically what it was 3000 years ago. All of it locally produced.

    No... no Iranian introgression of any kind!! Get it?
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

  23. #248
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    OK, for example I believe θ(th) didn't exist in the north of Europe before the arrival of proto-Germanic language in 500 BC, now please show evidences that this sound existed.
    What? Do you think a sound must be brought to some region from outside for it to start existing due to some sound change in a given language? There is no proof at all that /th/ existed or DID NOT EXIST (don't you believe it existed? So what? who cares about your personal beliefs? This is about evidence, and you have none to make any sort of claim. Do you even have any evidence whatsoever of languages spoken in the Early Iron Age in North Europe? No? Then don't create fantasies in your mind). By the way, it is obvious that it should be enough that (pre-)Proto-Germanic had developed this sound, other languages don't need to have had the same phoneme.

    But all of that is in fact completely irrelevant, a non-issue, because sound changes bring new phonemes to a certain language due to the internal dynamics of language evolution, with one phoneme slowly but surely changing more and more its actual realization until it becomes a new phoneme. New sounds appear and disappear all the time, they don't need to be the same already found in languages of the same area. The /th/ of Castillian Spanish only appeared around the 17th century from earlier /ts/. It did not exist in the languages of the Iberian Peninsula before that. Or do you think it was necessary for Icelandic or English people to migrate to Spain to "teach" the locals about the phoneme /th/? Man, your knowledge of linguistics is not just extremely shallow, it even lacks plain common sense.

    P.S.: By the way, reconstructed Proto-Italic had the /th/ sound. It was probably spoken originally in Central Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Would you please tell me what BA or IA Iranian admixture does not exist in ancient or modern DNA samples from Northern Europe? People who live in the west of Iran and north of Europe have these haplogroups: R1b, R1a, I, E1b1b, J, Q, G, N. And almost all European haplogroups are subclades of Iranian ones.
    I talk about admixture and you reply talking about Y-DNA haplogroups, and the most upstream forms of those haplogroups generically? Do you know what autosomal admixture means? Honestly I can't even take your post seriously any longer...

    Besides, it's obvious that most European Y-DNA subclades of haplogroups do not derive directly from clades originated in Iran and expanded from there, but from clades that already existed in Neolithic "Old Europe", in Neolithic Anatolia or in the Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age Pontic-Caspian steppe. Most of the Y-DNA haplogroups you keep talking about were already well established in Europe by the Copper Age or even before that. There is little direct relationship between the most common subclades of haplogroups of Northern Europe and the most common subclades of haplogroups of Iran, and some of these clearly came from Europe and Central Asia to Iran, not the other way around. Contrary to most of Northern Europe after the Early Bronze Age, Iran did experience a significant genetic change between the Late Neolithic and the modern era.

    Sorry, repeating your mantra countless times won't make it true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Here is what experienced genetics buffs think of the matter :



    From this page : http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...ronze-age.html

    In plain English : there has been NO SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE GENETIC MAKEUP OF GERMANIC POPULATIONS SINCE THE BRONZE AGE. Their DNA today is basically what it was 3000 years ago. All of it locally produced.

    No... no Iranian introgression of any kind!! Get it?
    Instead of these ultra-nationalist claims, please reply my questions, Eupedia website itself says haplogroup Q came in the last 3000 years, if you believe J2 dates back to more than 3000 years ago, you should explain how? Haplogroup R1a and R1b existed in other lands too, it is certainly possible that they came back from other lands too.

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