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Thread: What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

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    There is not really ultra-nationalist claims here, everyone is saying what we have analyzed as amateur for years now. About y-dna modern distribution, J2b is probably the closest thing that would fit your hypothesis of a prehistoric lineage coming from Iran to Europe in Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    There is not really ultra-nationalist claims here, everyone is saying what we have analyzed as amateur for years now. About y-dna modern distribution, J2b is probably the closest thing that would fit your hypothesis of a prehistoric lineage coming from Iran to Europe in Late Neolithic / Chalcolithic.
    It is at least good that you say there could be also a migration from Iran to Europe, it is the first time that I hear it in this forum but Scandinavian one doesn't seem to be J2b.

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    It seems no one wants to talk about haplogroup J2 in Scandinavia, I just found something:

    J1a-FGC58748FGC58748/Z43008 formed 2600 ybp > J1a-FGC58748* id:YF11104 SWE

    What does it mean?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Present-day distribution :

    J2 in Germany : 4.5%
    J2 in Sweden : 2.5%
    J2 in Norway : 0.5%

    J1 in Germany : close to 0
    J1 in Norway and sweden : 0

    Wow... that's surely enough to change the language.

    As for Germanic-oriented nationalist claims, from me, in central France???!! It takes some stretch of the imagination, doesn't it?

    You are T-ROLLING THIS FORUM. I hope everyone will just give up answering you, and let this ABSURD thread die its natural death.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Would you please tell me what BA or IA Iranian admixture does not exist in ancient or modern DNA samples from Northern Europe? People who live in the west of Iran and north of Europe have these haplogroups: R1b, R1a, I, E1b1b, J, Q, G, N. And almost all European haplogroups are subclades of Iranian ones.
    The admixture we are referring to would be components such as Iran_Neolithic, Iran_Chalcolithic, Iran_BA, Iran_IA, etc. We don't find any of those components in Scandinavia or Germanic populations. Various Migration period and Medieval Period Germanic populations plot quite closely with Nordic BA and associated samples. Uniparental markers are part of the story, but autosomal DNA tells you more in regards to a person's origins.

    Now the second part right there, that is a BOLD claim, where is your evidence for that? Let me guess, Grugni et al 2012? The same study we've discussed 100 times over in this thread? The very same study which didn't test BEYOND the SNPs they listed? Come on. You can't make those claims when the specifications of a paper limited their depth of haplogroup testing (see the list of SNPs they tested). Besides several of those Haplogroups you mention PREDATE Indo-Europeans and are found in Europe as early as the Paleolithic period (I-M170 clades most notably), again we have very old samples of I, I2, G, I1, etc in Europe ranging from the Paleolithic to the Neolithic prior to the migration of the IE people. Now the I1 and I2 samples can easily be explained without really extravagant theories and the paper (Grugni) specifically calls these lineages (I-M170/I2/I1) "West Eurasian" or "European".
    In terms of haplogroup Q, I refer you to the study I linked previous, and again the limited SNP depth of Grugni et al is not definitive of anything in terms of phylogeny of Iranian or European haplogroups because "low resolution" haplogroups without actually getting close to a terminal SNP can lead to really broad statements.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...438-017-1363-8

    Also, Eupedia's page on Haplogroup Q has a subheading for Q in Scandinavia and it mentions an early sample of Q-L56 in Khvalynsk culture. Which is the precursor to Yamnaya. The specific branch of Q in Scandinavia is from a distinctly European lineage. Haplogroup Q more likely originates in Siberia where it expanded with a great amount of Q being quite common among indigenous people of North America.
    Again, it is not appropriate to claim that these Iranian haplogroups discussed in Grugni et al are all predecessors to European haplogroups without actually knowing what the real terminal SNPs are for these various modern Iranian samples. We know from private testing that Iranian haplogroups are quite a bit downstream of the ones featured in Grugni et al. You can see examples at FamilyTreeDNA's Iranian DNA Project these can be seen via the tables of results and SNPs they provide. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...na/dna-results
    In regards to U106 and non-IE... that's unlikely. We find U106 in the samples I mentioned like Lille Beddinge, Sweden (Allentoft et al 2015), Únětice, Czech Rep. (Olalde 2018), De Tuithoorn, NL (Olalde 2017) and these are dated to the Bronze Age timeframe. Haplogroups in Europe that could be considered non-IE, are those that were there early on from the Paleolithic onward, I, C, G, F*, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What about haplogroup J2 in Scandinavia:

    It doesn't seem to be J2b:

    What is it?
    A specific J2 lineage. J2 is quite old and probably associated with the diffusion of domesticated cattle and goats, so not exactly IE and doesn't correlate well with any Bronze Age Migration out of Gutium. Like all haplogroups J2 is old and it has many subclades all with specific geographic origins. The map at Eupedia is quite all encompassing, because it is looking at OVERALL distribution of the paragroup of J2.
    For your most recent post https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC58748/
    It's a very specific lineage of J2 which quite downstream from the paragroup J2. This lineage looks European with related collateral branches above this node having a distinct Balkan to Central Europe spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Present-day distribution :

    J2 in Germany : 4.5%
    J2 in Sweden : 2.5%
    J2 in Norway : 0.5%

    J1 in Germany : close to 0
    J1 in Norway and sweden : 0

    Wow... that's surely enough to change the language.

    As for Germanic-oriented nationalist claims, from me, in central France???!! It takes some stretch of the imagination, doesn't it?

    You are T-ROLLING THIS FORUM. I hope everyone will just give up answering you, and let this ABSURD thread die its natural death.
    J2 in Luristan: 17%
    J1 in Luristan: 2%

    As I have said several times the most important haplogroups are R1b and R1a which have the highest frequency in Luristan.

    J2a, Q-M346(L56) and other haplogroups actually prove there was a migration from Iran to Scandinavia.

    I didn't say you are nationalist but your link claimed nationalist things (a pure race with no change in the last 3000 years!!), anyway I already know what I wanted to know, so it really doesn't matter other ones reply or not.

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    Jeez, no one has said pure race. That's you misunderstanding data, yet again. You are really t-rolling this board now, it is quite obvious.

    Read my post above for J2 and Q. They are specific lineages found in Scandinavia that belong to European branches. They are not evidence of anything. You have a tendency to link things without actually doing the research. This thread is tired as it is the same discussion all the time that leads absolutely nowhere because you fail to see what anyone is saying in favour of accusing people of "ultra-nationalism", that's rich coming from you quite honestly. We constantly circle back around to the same 2012 citation that discusses modern distribution in a modern country. So because ample evidence and strong counter arguments have been given through evidence with support from ancient samples and very indepth genetics papers you still refuse to see the writing on the wall here, and instead accuse people of nationalism. Incredible.

    What other haplogroups? Are you citing Grugni et al again? The very same study which only tested a limited amount of SNPs and did not provide any higher clade resolution because of the list of SNPs they tested? Yet when we look at private studies we find very specific lineages in the Iranian DNA project.

    This thread is essentially a revolving door.
    Last edited by spruithean; 31-05-19 at 14:08. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    For your most recent post https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC58748/
    It's a very specific lineage of J2 which quite downstream from the paragroup J2. This lineage looks European with related collateral branches above this node having a distinct Balkan to Central Europe spread.
    Armenia is not in Balkan or Central Asia, that is really very interesting, as I said in the thread about Indo-European phonology, Persian sources also talk about Gutian migration to Armenia. Skjoldr (Skayordi in the Persian/Armenian sources) was the first Gutian king of Armenia (Urartu/Heorot) who helped Cyaxares in the conquest of Assyrian empire.

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    I'm well aware that Armenia is not in the Balkans. Are you aware that Europeans were active in Armenia since the Byzantine Empire? You are aware that Armenians settled in Europe throughout the middle ages for various reasons, yes? Or will this thread always jump to your theory instead of first looking at more recent movements of people?


    Do you have evidence for Skjöldr being Skayordi? Besides a loose linguistic argument? Evidence for Urartu being Heorot? Or again, more wishful thinking?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Jeez, no one has said pure race. That's you misunderstanding data, yet again. You are really t-rolling this board now, it is quite obvious.

    Read my post above for J2 and Q. They are specific lineages found in Scandinavia that belong to European branches. They are not evidence of anything. You have a tendency to link things without actually doing the research. This thread is tired as it is the same discussion all the time that leads absolutely nowhere because you fail to see what anyone is saying in favour of accusing people of "ultra-nationalism", that's rich coming from you quite honestly. We constantly circle back around to the same 2012 citation that discusses modern distribution in a modern country. So because ample evidence and strong counter arguments have been given through evidence with support from ancient samples and very indepth genetics papers you still refuse to see the writing on the wall here, and instead accuse people of nationalism. Incredible.

    What other haplogroups? Are you citing Grugni et al again? The very same study which only tested a limited amount of SNPs and did not provide any higher clade resolution because of the list of SNPs they tested? Yet when we look at private studies we find very specific lineages in the Iranian DNA project.

    This thread is essentially a revolving door.
    I should really thank you, you helped too much about my theory, the fact is I didn't know anything about genetic relations between people who lived in the west of Iran and Scandinavians, if you look at my first posts in this thread I firstly thought it probably related to haplogroup I! The fact is for many years I thought there are just cultural relation between two lands but I already know many things about genetic relations too, thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I'm well aware that Armenia is not in the Balkans. Are you aware that Europeans were active in Armenia since the Byzantine Empire? You are aware that Armenians settled in Europe throughout the middle ages for various reasons, yes? Or will this thread always jump to your theory instead of first looking at more recent movements of people?
    Do you have evidence for Skjöldr being Skayordi? Besides a loose linguistic argument? Evidence for Urartu being Heorot? Or again, more wishful thinking?
    It doesn't talk about historical Armenia but modern one which was part of Sassanid empire, look at also this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4888/

    Sweden 2, Armenia 2, Azerbaijan 1, Qatar 1, ...

    I don't know why you think Iran and Europe are in two different worlds, an inscription of Darius the Great has been found in Gherla (Armenopolis) in the northwest of Romania, this thing that some people from Iran came to the Central or Northern Europe in 500 BC is not a strange thing.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I should really thank you, you helped too much about my theory, the fact is I didn't know anything about genetic relations between people who lived in the west of Iran and Scandinavians, if you look at my first posts in this thread I firstly thought it probably related to haplogroup I! The fact is for many years I thought there are just cultural relation between two lands but I already know many things about genetic relations too, thanks again.
    You fail to comprehend the studies that have been linked to you, and what we've been telling post after post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It doesn't talk about historical Armenia but modern one which was part of Sassanid empire, look at also this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4888/

    Sweden 2, Armenia 2, Azerbaijan 1, Qatar 1, ...

    I don't know why you think Iran and Europe are in two different worlds, an inscription of Darius the Great has been found in Gherla (Armenopolis) in the northwest of Romania, this thing that some people from Iran came to the Central or Northern Europe in 500 BC is not a strange thing.
    A 9100 year old haplogroup tells us absolutely nothing. Most of the downstreams of those are PRIOR to Indo-Europeans. You fail to pay attention to chronology and phylogeny, which then leak over to you not paying attention to the specific phylogeny of ancient samples or their respective chronologies.

    We know that the Achaemenid Empire extended into Europe. This doesn't mean any one from Iran then moved to Northern Europe, you make assumptions based on bad interpretations of data. Several people in this thread have provided ample evidence that shows a solid case against your theory and you continue to ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:

    More nonsense and more ridiculous assumptions made here. You fail to pay attention to Uralisms from Uralic in Germanic, Celtic loanwords, Latin loanwords, Germanic loanwords (both pre-proto-Germanic and proto-Germanic) into Finnish, as well as Germanic loanwords into Balto-Slavic etc. You continue to ignore archaeological continuity, autosomal continuity in Scandinavia and Northern Germany and the list goes on. You have every right to believe your theory, but the more you ignore everything everyone is sharing with you the more you look like a t-roll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    You fail to comprehend the studies that have been linked to you, and what we've been telling post after post.
    A 9100 year old haplogroup tells us absolutely nothing. Most of the downstreams of those are PRIOR to Indo-Europeans. You fail to pay attention to chronology and phylogeny, which then leak over to you not paying attention to the specific phylogeny of ancient samples or their respective chronologies.
    We know that the Achaemenid Empire extended into Europe. This doesn't mean any one from Iran then moved to Northern Europe, you make assumptions based on bad interpretations of data. Several people in this thread have provided ample evidence that shows a solid case against your theory and you continue to ignore it.
    More nonsense and more ridiculous assumptions made here. You fail to pay attention to Uralisms from Uralic in Germanic, Celtic loanwords, Latin loanwords, Germanic loanwords (both pre-proto-Germanic and proto-Germanic) into Finnish, as well as Germanic loanwords into Balto-Slavic etc. You continue to ignore archaeological continuity, autosomal continuity in Scandinavia and Northern Germany and the list goes on. You have every right to believe your theory, but the more you ignore everything everyone is sharing with you the more you look like a t-roll.
    You yourself know that new genetic studies also support my theory, of course you hope that these studies are proved to be wrong and they say that Germanic haplogroups don't exist in Asia but I know they will disappoint you, in fact you should wait for more genetic studies and several other evidences for Germanic presence in Iran, I believe this is a historical fact which can never be changed.

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    Why Germanic 'god' relates to Indo-Iranian 'khuda' and Latin 'Deo' to Sanskrit 'Deva', IndoIranian 'Bagh' to Indic 'Baghwan' maybe because they share common ancestor PIE

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Present-day distribution :

    J2 in Germany : 4.5%
    J2 in Sweden : 2.5%
    J2 in Norway : 0.5%

    J1 in Germany : close to 0
    J1 in Norway and sweden : 0

    Wow... that's surely enough to change the language.

    As for Germanic-oriented nationalist claims, from me, in central France???!! It takes some stretch of the imagination, doesn't it?

    You are T-ROLLING THIS FORUM. I hope everyone will just give up answering you, and let this ABSURD thread die its natural death.
    Exactly. For me the "confession statement" of his has already been said: "I believe θ(th) didn't exist in the north of Europe before the arrival of proto-Germanic language in 500 BC"; and then he tops that with "I believe this is a historical fact which can never be changed."

    It's a matter of belief, a dogma, an ideological principle, a personally invested agenda - not a matter of disinterested, unbiased science. And it's particularly funny and also bizarre to see an Iranian man on a crusade to prove that Germanic people are from Iran bashing other people (non-Germanic people, mind you, lol) as "ultra-nationalists" and "racists". Talk about projection.

    Honestly I recommend everyone to just stop feeding this bunch of delusional fiction and nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:


    I try my proper nail.
    the Alemanni tribes name dates since a very later time than your Alman of Armenia, of supposed Gutian origin (which I dont contest specifically here). this name is not mentioned concerning the first known Germanic tribes; it seems it's rather a new name of OUR era signifying "all men" (°all-? mandi? I've not the old form at hand) after kind of fusion of old dispersed or weakened tribes of previous other names; sulemy the same phenomenon as the formation of the Franks name. So a direct link with the Alman of Armenia is to discard.
    If you like names forms proximities I can cite a place Tamul in the Baltic region (not precised, I found it in an abstract about Narva culture period), and Tamul waterfalls in Mexico; it opens you new doors to rewrite history, opening a door to Southern India as a 'must'.
    Concerning proper names, I made researches about curious surnames of Brittany and I found, for some of them, at te level of look (writing) same surnames in Iberia, or Italy, or the Netherlands, or Finland or Poland or Hungary and so on... until China! It's not proximity, but appearent identity!
    And these names, present in these countries since surnames exist, have absolutely no link tying them, they have different etymologies, except a very small number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh
    Why Germanic 'god' relates to Indo-Iranian 'khuda' and Latin 'Deo' to Sanskrit 'Deva', IndoIranian 'Bagh' to Indic 'Baghwan' maybe because they share common ancestor PIE
    I think you know Persian, as you read about Sanskrit Deva: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=deva

    "god, divinity, good spirit" in Hindu religion, 1819, from Sanskrit deva "a god" (as opposed to asuras "wicked spirits"), etymologically "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Greek dios "divine" and Zeus, and Latin deus "god" (Old Latin deivos), from PIE root *dyeu- "to shine," in derivatives "sky, heaven, god."

    Div in Persian means "demon", not "god", the important point is that this word never means "shining" in Persian, in fact it is not possible that a word with this meaning is used for demon, the Middle Persian word for "shining" is tewa which is clearly a loanword from proto-Germanic, in Modern Persian that is "Taban" (w>b sound change). https://glosbe.com/fa/en/%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%86

    As you read in this book: A history of Zoroastrianism: The Early Period By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet (The Gods of Pagan Iran, page 77), the chief god of Iran was Tir/Tyr, it was also the chief god of Armenians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tir_(god), the founder of Parthian empire and some other Parthian and then Armenian kings were Tiridates which means "Given by God (Tir)". Tyr is from proto-Germanic Tiwaz: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tyr Also compare to the name of Gutian king Tirigan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I try my proper nail.
    the Alemanni tribes name dates since a very later time than your Alman of Armenia, of supposed Gutian origin (which I dont contest specifically here). this name is not mentioned concerning the first known Germanic tribes; it seems it's rather a new name of OUR era signifying "all men" (°all-? mandi? I've not the old form at hand) after kind of fusion of old dispersed or weakened tribes of previous other names; sulemy the same phenomenon as the formation of the Franks name. So a direct link with the Alman of Armenia is to discard.
    If you like names forms proximities I can cite a place Tamul in the Baltic region (not precised, I found it in an abstract about Narva culture period), and Tamul waterfalls in Mexico; it opens you new doors to rewrite history, opening a door to Southern India as a 'must'.
    Concerning proper names, I made researches about curious surnames of Brittany and I found, for some of them, at te level of look (writing) same surnames in Iberia, or Italy, or the Netherlands, or Finland or Poland or Hungary and so on... until China! It's not proximity, but appearent identity!
    And these names, present in these countries since surnames exist, have absolutely no link tying them, they have different etymologies, except a very small number.
    It really doesn't matter that there are similar names in modern Germanic lands or not, I say the names of all ancient tribes in the west of Iran such as Guti, Suedi, Alman, Padan, Suebi, ... have Germanic origin, it is certainly possible that we find two similar names in two different lands, but what about 10, 100, 1000, ...? I can list the names of at least 500 place names in the west of Iran which have Germanic origin, most of them also exist in the modern Germanic lands.

  20. #270
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    For example search the same name of Lur: https://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=Lur&country=

    As you see more than half of them are in Iran, but what are other ones:

    Lur, Pakistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (land of Kalash people)
    Lur, Sweden, Skåne
    Lur, Sweden, Västra Götaland
    Lur, Austria, Styria
    ...

    Number of placenames which contain the word Lur:

    Iran: 24
    Afghanistan: 11
    Sweden: 7
    Pakistan: 5

  21. #271
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    For example search the same name of Lur: https://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=Lur&country=

    As you see more than half of them are in Iran, but what are other ones:

    Lur, Pakistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (land of Kalash people)
    Lur, Sweden, Skåne
    Lur, Sweden, Västra Götaland
    Lur, Austria, Styria
    ...

    Number of placenames which contain the word Lur:

    Iran: 24
    Afghanistan: 11
    Sweden: 7
    Pakistan: 5
    Cyrus, I think there is some common ground in mythology and some distant genetic relationship. That’s all. Tribes that bring direct the Germanic culture to NW Europe from Iran is a fairy tale.

    But I guess this remarks are like to bring water to the sea.....believers stay believers.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Would you please explain this haplogroup:

    R1a-Y17491 (formed 4900 ybp), a subclade of R1a-Z282 which is itself a subclade of R1a-Z283: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

    Subclades:
    R-YP5872 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF08495 Sweden > R-YP6536 Sweden
    R-YP4858 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF04155PAK Pakistan > R-FGC64133 (formed 3100 ybp) Turkey/Syria

    Look at the location of R1a-Z283 in the Migration map of haplogroup R1a:


  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Would you please explain this haplogroup:

    R1a-Y17491 (formed 4900 ybp), a subclade of R1a-Z282 which is itself a subclade of R1a-Z283: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

    Subclades:
    R-YP5872 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF08495 Sweden > R-YP6536 Sweden
    R-YP4858 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF04155PAK Pakistan > R-FGC64133 (formed 3100 ybp) Turkey/Syria

    Look at the location of R1a-Z283 in the Migration map of haplogroup R1a:


    Corded Ware.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    What is the relation between the western branch of the Corded Ware culture and Pakistan?

  25. #275
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    What is the relation between the western branch of the Corded Ware culture and Pakistan?
    Very distant cousins, very different branches. So no direct connection Iran and Germanic.


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    Last edited by Northener; 01-06-19 at 19:16.

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