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Thread: What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Sometimes I think you actually want to support my theory! Almost all Finnish words that you mentioned are from proto-Germanic (after 500 BC) but those ones that you said are from pre-Proto-Germanic actually show the Germanic migration from the west of Iran to the north of Europe.
    For example about proto-Finnic *kapja "hoof", if you remember I had mentioned Arabic xuf "hoof": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AE%D9%81#Etymology_2 linguists believe the reconstructed IE word *ḱoph₂�s "hoof" is a loanword from proto-Semitic: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...2%82%82%C3%B3s
    Proto-Germanic *xufaz seems to be a direct loanword from Semitic but we see irregular sound changes in Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages, both x and f didn't exist in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic phonologies, in Indo-Iranian x has been palatalized to ć and f has been aspirated to , so we have Indo-Iranian *ćapʰ�s but we see regular x>k and f>p in Balto-Slavic, so it is *kopyto, proto-Finnic word is clearly from Balto-Slavic.
    Sorry, but you produce the evolution X>k and f>p but almost everytime it's rather the opposite. At least in Germanic (and other languages) this is the rule, and the words with K- or P- are rather loans made before the Germanics devoicing/"spirantizing" mutation (I don't find the correct english word, sorry).
    That said the map you provide here is an hypothesis and has no scientific basis as conclusion. Everybody can make beautiful maps checking their own hypothesis.
    aside:
    here under a traduction of Bernard SERGENT: academic compilation of other works:
    "Germanic presents a big amount of lexicon shared with Macro-Baltic, then with Italics and Celtics. For grammar and morphology, the relations are very numerous with Baltic languages (43% according to Kroeber-Chrétien/Adams calcul) despite some very big differences discard it as a member of the same family, and the correspondances of lexicon are for the most with Baltic languahes, not with Slavic languages. Eric Hamp speaks nevertheless of a "North-European group" which unitesGermanic, Baltic-Slavic and Albanese."*...

    *gathered into a "Baltic-Balkanic super-family" by some people...

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    @Spruithean

    All that is very difficult to disentangle;
    I think (with my present knowledge) that loanwords from Germanic in Finnic are superstratum; but in Saami Finnic, I red somewhere one substratum was seemingly satemlike what pushed me to imagine it could rather be after contacts with northern IE tribes so Fatyanovo ones ore some other CWClike group; the other substrata was of an unkown family of language.
    In Scandinavia, the local Y-R1a post-CWC look as if they had been pushed from South towards North, so in my opinion, not the Germanic launcher.
    That said it's true that we can think too that the very widely spred CWC tribes could have spoken at first a vague continuum of not too evolved post-PIE, so think the westernmost ones could have evolved into centum dialects when the easternmost ones evolved into satem diaects; that said (to seem fair play! LOL), I find this last argument a bit convoluted. But we discussed this already in other threads, less weird than this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Sorry, but you produce the evolution X>k and f>p but almost everytime it's rather the opposite. At least in Germanic (and other languages) this is the rule, and the words with K- or P- are rather loans made before the Germanics devoicing/"spirantizing" mutation (I don't find the correct english word, sorry).
    It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.

    Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje

    From Proto-Finnic *hlgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian hljes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Because you don't pay attention to what I said about mtDNA haplogroup U7.
    The lone instance of it in a single female Viking grave? I'm not ignoring it, it is a single sample, you cannot use that as evidence of anything when we already know that a fair number of people from outside of Scandinavia were there in the Viking Age (the Sigtuna paper highlights this). A single case from the medieval period does not say much in regards to the ethnogenesis of Germanic-speaking peoples. They also estimate that U7 originated 30,000 years ago in the Black Sea area.

    From the Sigtuna paper:

    Social Structures and Mobility

    Different sex-related mobility patterns for Sigtuna inhabitants have been suggested based on material culture, especially ceramics. Building on design and clay analyses, some female potters in Sigtuna are thought to have grown up in Novgorod in Rus’ [40]. Moreover, historical sources mention female mobility in connection to marriage, especially among the elite from Rus’ and West Slavonic regions [41, 42]. Male mobility is also known from historical sources, often in connection to clergymen moving to the town [43].
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982218308443

    We see a similar scenario in Migration period papers where they highlight higher female mobility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.

    Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje

    From Proto-Finnic *h�lgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *��lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian h�ljes.


    Please, not even once does your link to hylje even connect it to Iran. Countless times in this thread we have shown that there is no Iranian-like admixture in prehistoric Northern European samples, there is no archaeological evidence of such a migration and everything points to your theory being incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The lone instance of it in a single female Viking grave? I'm not ignoring it, it is a single sample, you cannot use that as evidence of anything when we already know that a fair number of people from outside of Scandinavia were there in the Viking Age (the Sigtuna paper highlights this). A single case from the medieval period does not say much in regards to the ethnogenesis of Germanic-speaking peoples.

    From the Sigtuna paper:



    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982218308443

    We see a similar scenario in Migration period papers where they highlight higher female mobility.

    [FONT=Verdana]

    Please, not even once does your link to hylje even connect it to Iran.
    You certainly know I meant "princely burials" in Germany from about 500 BC (Late Hallstatt culture), not just this Viking queen.

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    A "~30,000 year old" haplogroup that likely originated in the Black Sea area?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044

    To quote the entire abstract:

    Human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U is among the initial maternal founders in Southwest Asia and Europe and one that best indicates matrilineal genetic continuity between late Pleistocene hunter-gatherer groups and present-day populations of Europe. While most haplogroup U subclades are older than 30 thousand years, the comparatively recent coalescence time of the extant variation of haplogroup U7 (~16–19 thousand years ago) suggests that its current distribution is the consequence of more recent dispersal events, despite its wide geographical range across Europe, the Near East and South Asia. Here we report 267 new U7 mitogenomes that – analysed alongside 100 published ones – enable us to discern at least two distinct temporal phases of dispersal, both of which most likely emanated from the Near East. The earlier one began prior to the Holocene (~11.5 thousand years ago) towards South Asia, while the later dispersal took place more recently towards Mediterranean Europe during the Neolithic (~8 thousand years ago). These findings imply that the carriers of haplogroup U7 spread to South Asia and Europe before the suggested Bronze Age expansion of Indo-European languages from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region.
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-06-19 at 01:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Because you don't pay attention to what I said about mtDNA haplogroup U7.
    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Look Germanics settled the North from southern Germany
    I don't know what's going on here, but this all makes no sense. No plausible story based on what these gentleman put forward.
    Reasonable replies from for example Spruithaen are replied with another random straw....without any coherency.

    Let me tell you there is no plausible connection between the genetics of the Germans and Iranian or Persian tribes. Fairy tales.

    The German genetics are een historical admixture of funnel beaker (Ertebolle/ENF mixture) and highly Steppe influenced Single Grave and Bell Beaker. This al took place from LNBA and beyond on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia. Not that fantastic movement of 'Germanic tribes' rushing in from Iran....yeah sure.

    Did you know that the Groningers in the Netherlands are Inca derived? Why? Because the genes of the potatoes in Groningen show a basic resemblance of those in the Andes. So there most be a connection....;)

    But a rational debate seems to be hard.....that's a loss because a good discussion about my ancestry would be nice. But this shows IMO a tendency towards throlling.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.
    Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".
    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje
    From Proto-Finnic *h�lgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *��lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian h�ljes.
    'caviar cannot be taken as an example for ancient Germanic evolution; it's a rather modern loanword in english, surely from a written source, maybe after a long chain of transmission, so phonologically out of worth; in any case not before the 9th Cy - look at Greek words with ch /kh/ >/X/ pronounced /k/ in French and other languages, or Cy- /ku/ or /kü/ pronounced /Si/ in French - 'caviar' is maybe of Turkish origin or of Iranian origin or...?, with kh- ~/X/ or /H/ according to some writings, but it says nothing about the Germanic (even English) and Iranian links about the 500 BC -
    concerning "Proto-Finnic *hülgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *šülke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz". what is your Iranian or Near-Eastern language cognate?
    it's my last post TO YOU in this thread -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Of course there is no evidence about the existence of Celtic and Italic people in Europe before the 1st millennium BC too, in fact we know before 500 BC in Italy the main languages were Etruscan, Camunic, Picenian, Ligurian, Sicanian, Paleo-Sardinian, ... which ere not Indo-European, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, ... people spoke Rhaetian language which is believed to be a Tyrsenian language, not Indo-European, and in the west of Europe the main languages were Vasconic, Aquitanian, Iberian and Tartessian languages. R1b has still the highest frequency among Basques who are not an Indo-European people.

    Haha! Who made that map? What's its source? You yourself? Tyrrhenian IS a language family composed of Etruscan + Rhaetian + Lemnian (which by the way is very Etruscan-like, possibly just a dialect of it or a sister language), so what the heck is that "Tyrrhenian language" up there in Northern Europe? What the heck is Lemnian doing all over Greece when it was only ever found in the tiny island of Lemnos in the Iron Age? Ditto for Northern Picene, what is it doing all over the Dinaric Balkans with no evidence at all for its presence except in Eastern Italy? What explains the reach of Tartessian so much northward of its known location in the Iron Age? And what's this "Trojan language" (and the people of Troy might've been Luwian or Phrygian in fact) not just in Northwestern Anatolia, but also in the South Balkans? What on earth is Pictish about if it was probably a Celtic or para-Celtic language? And what's this extent of Paleo-Sardinian and Paleo-Sicilian languages to the Maghrebi coast?

    In fact, ALL of those languages depicted in the map are known only in the 1st millennium B.C., and some of them have little or no inscriptions written in them - all of them, with no exception (I don't count Trojan, because it is not attested at all in the linguistic record). So, the evidence for the existence of these non-IE languages is exactly the same there is for the IE languages that you're claiming didn't exist in Europe because... well, because like most languages ever in ancient times they weren't written down (wow what a great evidence, indeed). If IE languages like Italic, Celtic and Germanic did not "exist" before their first attestation in Europe, then for sure those non-IE languages didn't, either (of course that's just a nonsensical argument in the same vein of the ones we have read here from you).

    Looks like one of those fictional maps made for stories of imaginary alternative worlds, frankly. Some people just don't know when they should stop for lack of enough evidences or knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener
    I don't know what's going on here, but this all makes no sense. No plausible story based on what these gentleman put forward.
    Reasonable replies from for example Spruithaen are replied with another random straw....without any coherency.

    Let me tell you there is no plausible connection between the genetics of the Germans and Iranian or Persian tribes. Fairy tales.

    The German genetics are een historical admixture of funnel beaker (Ertebolle/ENF mixture) and highly Steppe influenced Single Grave and Bell Beaker. This al took place from LNBA and beyond on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia. Not that fantastic movement of 'Germanic tribes' rushing in from Iran....yeah sure.

    Did you know that the Groningers in the Netherlands are Inca derived? Why? Because the genes of the potatoes in Groningen show a basic resemblance of those in the Andes. So there most be a connection....;)

    But a rational debate seems to be hard.....that's a loss because a good discussion about my ancestry would be nice. But this shows IMO a tendency towards throlling.....
    I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."

    Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html

    "A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.

    The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.

    The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.

    The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.

    She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean
    A "~30,000 year old" haplogroup that likely originated in the Black Sea area?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044
    Please, you certainly know we are talking about what haplogroup and where its original land is.

    The Viking World, page 266:



    North Sea Archaeologies: A Maritime Biography, 10,000 BC - AD 1500, page 211:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."

    Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html

    "A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.

    The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.

    The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.

    The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.

    She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."
    First of all the Germans were not 'newborn' in the iron age/Jastorf. They didn't fall out of space. The 'original' Germans genetic roots lay in the Bronze Age. So did the Germans of the European migration ages in the early middle ages. And even nowadays my family falls in this specific genetic cluster.

    The Vikings later on had many connections they also found a Buddha among the Vikings, that doesn't make them Buddhist or Indian ;)

    http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/t...ng-age-buddha/

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener
    First of all the Germans were not 'newborn' in the iron age/Jastorf. They didn't fall out of space. The 'original' Germans genetic roots lays the Bronze Age. So did the Germans of the European migration ages in the early middle ages. And even nowadays my family falls in this specific genetic cluster.

    The Vikings later on had many connections they also found a Buddha among the Vikings, that doesn't make them Buddhist or Indian ;)

    http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/t...ng-age-buddha/
    A Buddha certainly doesn't prove anything but if you also find Indian style of construction or Indian style clothes and accessories in Scandinavian cities and villages, and archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts relate them to Scandinavian ancestral roots, then it can be certainly said that Scandinavians had an Indian culture, the same thing can be said about all other peoples and cultures in the world.

    If Germanic culture existed in the north of Europe before 500 BC, there should be at least some evidences about it in the Germanic sources, but we see more than 800 years ago Icelandic historian Snorri Sturluson also says about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard "Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there." And from another side we see several evidences which prove Germanic Asgard is the same ancient land of Asagarta (Hellenized as Zagros) in Iran, Snorri also says "Odin is the chief of Asagarth. On the border of Sweden the Great (Suedin in Mesopotamian sources) is a mountain range (Zagros) running from northeast to southwest. South of it are the lands of the Turks (Seljuks at the time of Snorri's writing), where Odin had possessions."

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    The fact is I really love to read Germanic mytho-historical sources, I have two sons, one of is Odin and another one is Armin, two Irano-Germanic names.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."
    Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html
    "A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.
    The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.
    The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.
    The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.
    She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."
    What does Jastorf culture show links with? Oh that's right the Nordic Bronze Age. It developed out of the Nordic Bronze Age and had influences from Hallstatt to the south.

    Nadia Haupt was looking at trade links between Vikings and Iran. You can find her blog online if you so wish.

    Another link from a different news site: https://en.mehrnews.com/news/10561/D...Iranian-museum
    Here is Nadia's blog (it is in Danish): https://salamviking.wordpress.com/20...rokko-og-iran/

    Also context again, besides being Vikings she is looking for the trade links and influences on the development of medieval Scandinavian civilizations, like Denmark from the Viking Age (Medieval) onward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Please, you certainly know we are talking about what haplogroup and where its original land is.
    The Viking World, page 266:
    Please? Ha. Read the study I linked, it discusses mt-Hg U And specifically U7. In far greater detail and accuracy than two books written PRIOR to the study.

    That's a leap, especially considering the lack of autosomal DNA to corroborate. Also, again the context is a singular Viking Age woman, we know the Vikings were active in both the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. Nadia Haupt investigated that and she isn't the only one who has investigated that, not once do they (the archaeologists, not journalists) say that Scandinavian civilizations come from Iran.

    North Sea Archaeologies: A Maritime Biography, 10,000 BC - AD 1500, page 211:
    He is describing modern distribution there and again you are ignoring the published study I linked about Haplogroup U and specifically U7. I even quoted the entire abstract. Read the abstract, hell, read the entire study.

    For context again: your links are discussing a single Viking Age woman. This does not speak for the ethnogenesis of Germanic, the fact that you ignore pre-Iron Age data from Europe in regards to Northern Europe and the development of Germanic speaking areas screams that you are "biased".
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-06-19 at 15:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    A Buddha certainly doesn't prove anything but if you also find Indian style of construction or Indian style clothes and accessories in Scandinavian cities and villages, and archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts relate them to Scandinavian ancestral roots, then it can be certainly said that Scandinavians had an Indian culture, the same thing can be said about all other peoples and cultures in the world.

    If Germanic culture existed in the north of Europe before 500 BC, there should be at least some evidences about it in the Germanic sources, but we see more than 800 years ago Icelandic historian Snorri Sturluson also says about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard "Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there." And from another side we see several evidences which prove Germanic Asgard is the same ancient land of Asagarta (Hellenized as Zagros) in Iran, Snorri also says "Odin is the chief of Asagarth. On the border of Sweden the Great (Suedin in Mesopotamian sources) is a mountain range (Zagros) running from northeast to southwest. South of it are the lands of the Turks (Seljuks at the time of Snorri's writing), where Odin had possessions."
    You certainly live in another paradigm than Spruithean or I do. The development of the Germanic language (like Celtic or Slavic) was a gradual development out of in the `german case the TRB and Single Grave (Bell Beaker) people mix. We have no books nor recordings so this proces is like with every prehistoric language difficult to reconstruct.

    As said in the (proto) Germanic mythology there will be corresponding themes with he whole Indo-European world.

    But your option of Iranian tribes with a 'Germanic package' neglects the historical developments out of Nordic Bronze age (proto-germanic) to iron age Germanic/Jastorf. Genetically there is also no evidence of your claim. But as Spruithean said you seem to be very biased in this respect. No cool reasonable logic IMO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The fact is I really love to read Germanic mytho-historical sources, I have two sons, one of is Odin and another one is Armin, two Irano-Germanic names.

    Yes and Spruithean an I partly originated in exact the same region are in reality hugginn and muginn....they bring the news from the Germanic world ;)

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean
    Please? Ha. Read the study I linked it discusses mt-Hg U And specifically U7.
    I read it and it says "In conclusion, the Near East is the most likely ancestral homeland of U7." This articel says nothing about Germany and north of Europe but it just mentions some rare subclades of U7 in Mediterranean and Southeast Europe. Logically in 500 BC, people with Haplogroup U7 in Europe could be from nowhere except Iran, look at the map of U7:


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I read it and it says "In conclusion, the Near East is the most likely ancestral homeland of U7." This articel says nothing about Germany and north of Europe but it just mentions some rare subclades of U7 in Mediterranean and Southeast Europe. Logically in 500 BC, people with Haplogroup U7 in Europe could be from nowhere except Iran, look at the map of U7:

    Yeah, but you are ignoring the abstract and the conclusions within as they pertain to the U7 in Near East and Europe:

    Human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U is among the initial maternal founders in Southwest Asia and Europe and one that best indicates matrilineal genetic continuity between late Pleistocene hunter-gatherer groups and present-day populations of Europe. While most haplogroup U subclades are older than 30 thousand years, the comparatively recent coalescence time of the extant variation of haplogroup U7 (~16–19 thousand years ago) suggests that its current distribution is the consequence of more recent dispersal events, despite its wide geographical range across Europe, the Near East and South Asia. Here we report 267 new U7 mitogenomes that – analysed alongside 100 published ones – enable us to discern at least two distinct temporal phases of dispersal, both of which most likely emanated from the Near East. The earlier one began prior to the Holocene (~11.5 thousand years ago) towards South Asia, while the later dispersal took place more recently towards Mediterranean Europe during the Neolithic (~8 thousand years ago).These findings imply that the carriers of haplogroup U7 spread to South Asia and Europe before the suggested Bronze Age expansion of Indo-European languages from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region.
    I will also quote:

    In conclusion, the Near East is the most likely ancestral homeland of U7. Our analyses reveal two temporally and geographically distinct signals of U7 expansion that disseminated from this region. The first signal dates shortly after the LGM and this dispersal is responsible for the spread of U7 towards South and Central Asia prior to the Holocene, while the more recent expansion explains its spread in Mediterranean Europe most probably during the early Holocene. These dispersals of hg U7 towards South Asia and Europe preclude any major association of U7 with the putative Bronze Age expansion of the Indo-European language family to these regions.
    Do you see what they are saying? They are saying that there are two distinct phases of dispersal, both of which come from the Near East, the earlier one headed toward South Asia 11.5kya and the second one dispersed into the Mediterranean area during the Neolithic 8000 years ago. This is all far older than Indo-Europeans and their migrations during the early stages of the Bronze Age and would seem to fit better with the spread of farming, and we know that farming likely spread out of the Near East. The study discusses these lineages in the context of the spread of farming.

    I'm not saying that U7 didn't originate in the Near East, my point is that U7 originated and spread far earlier than Indo-European groups. This is why we must look to the Neolithic and try to understand the population movements and the events leading up to the Iron Age and beyond. You are also ignoring the fact that U7 is practically absent in Europe today, again phylogeny of these U7 haplogroups matter and this is what the study touched on. Besides the Iron Age samples you cite again are Iron Age Hallstatt, Hallstatt was not likely to be Germanic, now was it? How refined were the mtDNA haplogroup calls (was there enough quality genetic material left for in-depth haplogroup analysis) for these princely burials in the south of Germany? We see several Neolithic Farmer associated lineages (both Y-DNA and mtDNA) holding on in post-Bronze Age Europe, to conclude that U7 is a sign of migration from Indo-European speakers from Iran is not viable when the dispersals of U7 "preclude any major association of U7 with the putative Bronze Age expansion of the Indo-European language family".


    Logically in 500 BC, people with Haplogroup U7 in Europe could be from nowhere except Iran
    No, logically people in 500 BC with this haplogroup would more than likely descend from Neolithic Farmer populations, especially considering the data from this paper I've linked.

    This is why you can't ignore everything before the Iron Age and how it pertains to the ethnogenesis of Germanic in Europe, because the culture most likely to be associated with proto-Germanic, Jastorf, shows a direct link to the Nordic Bronze Age. If we see (refer to Eurogenes posts shared earlier by Northener) no major population change (admixture change) in Northern Europe from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age that is very telling that there was no Indo-European proto-Germanic migration from Iran, all signs point to proto-Germanic being a development out of Northern Europe.

    I should add, the similarities we see in mythology between Indo-European people is simply that, similarities because they are rooted in a common Indo-European ancestral mythology. All Indo-European groups have similar mythos like Divine Twins or Horse Twins, Sky Gods, Storm Gods, etc.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Yeah, but you are ignoring the abstract and the conclusions within as they pertain to the U7 in Near East and Europe:
    I will also quote:
    Do you see what they are saying? They are saying that there are two distinct phases of dispersal, both of which come from the Near East, the earlier one headed toward South Asia 11.5kya and the second one dispersed into the Mediterranean area during the Neolithic 8000 years ago. This is all far older than Indo-Europeans and their migrations during the early stages of the Bronze Age and would seem to fit better with the spread of farming, and we know that farming likely spread out of the Near East. The study discusses these lineages in the context of the spread of farming.
    I'm not saying that U7 didn't originate in the Near East, my point is that U7 originated and spread far earlier than Indo-European groups. This is why we must look to the Neolithic and try to understand the population movements and the events leading up to the Iron Age and beyond. You are also ignoring the fact that U7 is practically absent in Europe today, again phylogeny of these U7 haplogroups matter and this is what the study touched on. Besides the Iron Age samples you cite again are Iron Age Hallstatt, Hallstatt was not likely to be Germanic, now was it? How refined were the mtDNA haplogroup calls (was there enough quality genetic material left for in-depth haplogroup analysis) for these princely burials in the south of Germany? We see several Neolithic Farmer associated lineages (both Y-DNA and mtDNA) holding on in post-Bronze Age Europe, to conclude that U7 is a sign of migration from Indo-European speakers from Iran is not viable when the dispersals of U7 "preclude any major association of U7 with the putative Bronze Age expansion of the Indo-European language family".
    No, logically people in 500 BC with this haplogroup would more than likely descend from Neolithic Farmer populations, especially considering the data from this paper I've linked.
    This is why you can't ignore everything before the Iron Age and how it pertains to the ethnogenesis of Germanic in Europe, because the culture most likely to be associated with proto-Germanic, Jastorf, shows a direct link to the Nordic Bronze Age. If we see (refer to Eurogenes posts shared earlier by Northener) no major population change (admixture change) in Northern Europe from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age that is very telling that there was no Indo-European proto-Germanic migration from Iran, all signs point to proto-Germanic being a development out of Northern Europe.
    I should add, the similarities we see in mythology between Indo-European people is simply that, similarities because they are rooted in a common Indo-European ancestral mythology. All Indo-European groups have similar mythos like Divine Twins or Horse Twins, Sky Gods, Storm Gods, etc.
    As you said U7 is absent in Europe, not just nowadays but also 3,000 or even 6,000 years ago too, we just know 8,000 years ago a rare subclade of this haplogroup existed in the Mediterranean area, we are talking about people who live in the north of Europe, if you believe U7 existed in this region before 500 BC, you should show me your evidences (not what some people guess), otherwise the most possible thing is that this haplogroup came to this region from a land where it existed.
    I'm interested to know that in your theory of Germanic origin what the role of Hallstatt culture was, especially if you believe it is a Celtic culture, do you believe Germanic is a mixture of Nordic and Celtic cultures? I think you believe Nordic is actually almost the same as proto-IE, does it mean Germanic sound shifts relate to Celtic language?!

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Yes and Spruithean an I partly originated in exact the same region are in reality hugginn and muginn....they bring the news from the Germanic world ;)
    LOL, with no doubt most of what we know about the Germanic culture are from modern Germanic lands, of course this culture is actually a mixture of Nordic and proto-Germanic cultures, Nordic culture had certainly a longer history in Europe but proto-Germanic one came from Iran. Anyway we know an IE culture came to Scandinavia from the southeast, whether in 500 BC or 1500 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    LOL, with no doubt most of what we know about the Germanic culture are from modern Germanic lands, of course this culture is actually a mixture of Nordic and proto-Germanic cultures, Nordic culture had certainly a longer history in Europe but proto-Germanic one came from Iran. Anyway we know an IE culture came to Scandinavia from the southeast, whether in 500 BC or 1500 BC.
    Ok than greetings to my distant cousin


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener
    Ok than greetings to my distant cousin
    Of course with an intervening time of 2,700 years! In Istanbul Turks and Greeks don't call each other cousin, whereas they had the same culture 500 years ago.
    I think Germanic people should be really proud of their culture, they have migrated several times from a land to another land but generally they have never been under domination of others, for about 1,500 years they lived in the west of Iran, all of ancient known empires, such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Elamite, Urartian, ... could never conquer their land, with invasion of Iranian tribes from different directions they had to migrate to Armenia and then Getae (west of Balck sea), about 513 BC Darius the Great attacked to subdue them, as Herodotes says all Thracian tribes in this region gave themselves up to Darius without a struggle but the Getae obstinately defending themselves, Herodotes call them the noblest people in this region, anyway Scythians also invaded from the east and they had to migrate to south Germany and finally as we know they intermarried with Nordic people and created a new kingdom in the north of Europe, a few centuries later ancient Romans also wanted to conquer their land but they also couldn't. After the Hunnic invasion, we also see that Germanic tribes again migrated from a land to another land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Of course with an intervening time of 2,700 years! In Istanbul Turks and Greeks don't call each other cousin, whereas they had the same culture 500 years ago.
    I think Germanic people should be really proud of their culture, they have migrated several times from a land to another land but generally they have never been under domination of others, for about 1,500 years they lived in the west of Iran, all of ancient known empires, such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Elamite, Urartian, ... could never conquer their land, with invasion of Iranian tribes from different directions they had to migrate to Armenia and then Getae (west of Balck sea), about 513 BC Darius the Great attacked to subdue them, as Herodotes says all Thracian tribes in this region gave themselves up to Darius without a struggle but the Getae obstinately defending themselves, Herodotes call them the noblest people in this region, anyway Scythians also invaded from the east and they had to migrate to south Germany and finally as we know they intermarried with Nordic people and created a new kingdom in the north of Europe, a few centuries later ancient Romans also wanted to conquer their land but they also couldn't. After the Hunnic invasion, we also see that Germanic tribes again migrated from a land to another land.
    It was a greeting with a smiley, because I do believe in a gradual development and mixtures but not in whatsoever tribe that brought in a fullgrown ‘Germanic culture’ package that migrated from west Iran, no evidence for that.

    The only phase when Germanic tribes went from Southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany to other parts in Europe was during the early middle ages.


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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    It was a greeting with a smiley, because I do believe in a gradual development and mixtures but not in whatsoever tribe that brought in a fullgrown ‘Germanic culture’ package that migrated from west Iran, no evidence for that.

    The only phase when Germanic tribes went from Southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany to other parts in Europe was during the early middle ages.
    Germanic culture should first exist in the north of Europe and then it is gradually developed, there is actually no evidence of its existence in the north of Europe before 500 BC, the same Germanic culture which already exists traces its origin in Asia, in fact according to Germanic sources, all major cultural developments happened in Asgard which was in Asia.

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