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Thread: What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

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    I don't know why they don't test for downclades of Persian R1b-L23* so we could discus its relation to European R1b, without this I think we can only speculate! Different theories demand evidences. If R1b-s28 tribes lived in W.Persia so recently then howcome theres none found in the region?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know why they don't test for downclades of Persian R1b-L23* so we could discus its relation to European R1b, without this I think we can only speculate! Different theories demand evidences. If R1b-s28 tribes lived in W.Persia so recently then howcome theres none found in the region?
    R1b-s28 is an Italo-Celtic haplogroup, of course it is better to say it is an Etruscan haplogroup:



    The fact is that mtDNA haplogroup U7 has been also found in Italy, it is just funny but it is interesting to read what this article says: Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/



    All aboriginal people in Europe are from Iran but Indo-European people who migrated there are not!!!

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    I just searched about Tuscan language and found that voiceless labiovelar fricative (xʷ) exists in Tuscan phonology, I thought it just existed in proto-Germanic and modern Luri and Kurdish phonologies in the west of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_phonology It is possible that proto-Germanic people first migrated to the north of Italy and then Germany, I should research more about it.

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    It is becoming more interesting! We see the same West Iranian and proto-Germanic sound shifts (/k/ → [h], /t/ → [θ], /p/ → [ɸ]) in Tuscan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscan_dialect

    It can be really a game changer, Tuscany is much closer to the Germanic lands than Iran.

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    SORRY! I meant R-U106. If it once lived in Zagros region then we should find so many of its subclades in there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    SORRY! I meant R-U106. If it once lived in Zagros region then we should find so many of its subclades in there!
    There is a different story, it is certainly possible that subclades of R1b-U106 exist in the east of Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, ... but it relates to Satem language of Carded Ware culture, especially Indo-Iranian, like subclades of R1a-Z282 which have been found both in Scandinavia and Pakistan, as I said in another thread we know Finnish people called people of Scandinavia as Aryan (Orya) and their land Vaejah (Vuoja). What we read in Avesta about Vaejah (original land of Aryans) can be certainly modern Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I just searched about Tuscan language and found that voiceless labiovelar fricative (xʷ) exists in Tuscan phonology, I thought it just existed in proto-Germanic and modern Luri and Kurdish phonologies in the west of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_phonology It is possible that proto-Germanic people first migrated to the north of Italy and then Germany, I should research more about it.
    This change only took place in the last centuries. It just cannot date to a time when Ronance Tuscan did not even exist, because the entire region still spoke Etruscan. Standard Italian is based on late medieval Tuscan and lacks that feature. You may not want to believe it, but lenition from /k/ to /x/ is an extremely common sound change worldwide, and it did happen in different places in different timeframes, independently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This change only took place in the last centuries. It just cannot date to a time when Ronance Tuscan did not even exist, because the entire region still spoke Etruscan. Standard Italian is based on late medieval Tuscan and lacks that feature. You may not want to believe it, but lenition from /k/ to /x/ is an extremely common sound change worldwide, and it did happen in different places in different timeframes, independently.
    As a Persian I myself can't pronounce Luri/Kurdish xʷast "quest, want" correctly, in fact Persians pronounce this word as xast or xuast, the interesting thing is Arabs who live in the southwest of Iran can pronounce this sound correctly, however it doesn't exist in Arabic phonology. I believe if the language of a people is changed culturally (not by a migration), their phonology won't change totally, this is the main reason that we see different Indo-European languages in different lands.

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    It is interesting to know that the earliest known Germanic inscription is Negau helmet which dates back to 450 BC 350 BC, it is in a North Etruscan alphabet and has been found in Slovenia. Elder Futhark runes, the oldest form of the runic alphabets, are also commonly believed to originate in the North Etruscan alphabets.

    So it should be said that Aesir-worshippers migrated from Asagarta (Asgard/Zagros) to Tuscany in the north of Italia and from this land their culture spread to the north of Europe.

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    A newer study: Mitogenomes from The 1000 Genome Project Reveal New Near Eastern Features in Present-Day Tuscans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4365045/

    "The present study adds further support to previously reported findings suggesting the presence of a significant Near East component in Tuscan mitogenomes, and points to Iran as the region in the Near East providing the main genetic signal to present day Tuscans."

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    Look where\when pre-Akkadians lived? if we find this then it could solve the "semitic words in germanic vocabulary" case. Look Maykop culture located in N.Caucasia and pre-Semits too were living in S.Caucasia at the same time so they were neighbouring cultures, IMHO its in this time and location where Semitic vocabulary entered language of R-L51 or R-L151 tribes, after this encounter they(L51) moved to Europe, J1 tribes moved south to Levant then in 2200 BC conquered Sumerians to form the Akkadian empire.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    I almost think it would be a public service to delete this whole thread, as it is so full of complete misinformation.

    I warned you, Cyrus. I told you I thought perhaps I should inform Maciamo you're back under a sock account.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you said U7 is absent in Europe, not just nowadays but also 3,000 or even 6,000 years ago too, we just know 8,000 years ago a rare subclade of this haplogroup existed in the Mediterranean area, we are talking about people who live in the north of Europe, if you believe U7 existed in this region before 500 BC, you should show me your evidences (not what some people guess), otherwise the most possible thing is that this haplogroup came to this region from a land where it existed.
    I'm interested to know that in your theory of Germanic origin what the role of Hallstatt culture was, especially if you believe it is a Celtic culture, do you believe Germanic is a mixture of Nordic and Celtic cultures? I think you believe Nordic is actually almost the same as proto-IE, does it mean Germanic sound shifts relate to Celtic language?!
    So you're just going to ignore what that study I cited says about two dispersal events that predate the Bronze Age movements of Indo-Europeans? Why because it doesn't suit you? My evidences? So you will disregard a genetic paper written by professionals (who are using real science and real mathematics) in the field when it doesn’t suit you? When did I ever say that Germanic sound changes came from Celtic? You’ve made that assumption without any indication otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    LOL, with no doubt most of what we know about the Germanic culture are from modern Germanic lands, of course this culture is actually a mixture of Nordic and proto-Germanic cultures, Nordic culture had certainly a longer history in Europe but proto-Germanic one came from Iran. Anyway we know an IE culture came to Scandinavia from the southeast, whether in 500 BC or 1500 BC.
    Proto-Germanic did not come from Iran, we’ve been over this. Where is the archaeological evidence? Where is the genetic admixture (autosomal) evidence? There is no sign of such admixture in Neolithic or Bronze Age Scandinavians and again there are no signals of this in Migration Period Germanic aDNA samples that we have accumulated. Migration Period Germanic samples all show a strong affinity for North/Central Europe and Northern Europe, the women in several studies show higher mobility and more diverse origins but this is product of what we would expect with the migration period which brought various steppe people into Europe like the Huns, Alans, etc, we know several Germanic tribes took Hunnic wives, such as the Thuringii to name a specific tribe. The Goth from Crimea ancient DNA sample as stated by many was more likely a Pontic Greek as opposed to an ethnic Goth. We have a Gepid sample from Serbia which shows what we would expect for the Gepids, a mixture of Northern European, Steppe and Balkan ancestry. The Gepids were one of Attila's favoured tribes and we know the Gepids and Huns mixed, we know the Gepids likely mixed further with the Pannonian Avars as well, judging by their armour in certain burials. Even two of the chiefs of the Gepids were likely descended from Attila judging by their names (Giesmus and Mundus).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Of course with an intervening time of 2,700 years! In Istanbul Turks and Greeks don't call each other cousin, whereas they had the same culture 500 years ago.
    I think Germanic people should be really proud of their culture, they have migrated several times from a land to another land but generally they have never been under domination of others, for about 1,500 years they lived in the west of Iran, all of ancient known empires, such as Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Elamite, Urartian, ... could never conquer their land, with invasion of Iranian tribes from different directions they had to migrate to Armenia and then Getae (west of Balck sea), about 513 BC Darius the Great attacked to subdue them, as Herodotes says all Thracian tribes in this region gave themselves up to Darius without a struggle but the Getae obstinately defending themselves, Herodotes call them the noblest people in this region, anyway Scythians also invaded from the east and they had to migrate to south Germany and finally as we know they intermarried with Nordic people and created a new kingdom in the north of Europe, a few centuries later ancient Romans also wanted to conquer their land but they also couldn't. After the Hunnic invasion, we also see that Germanic tribes again migrated from a land to another land.
    Beating a dead horse here, proto-Germanic did not come from Iran. The Getae were not a Germanic tribe, the Getae were a Thracian people more closely related to Dacians and other neighbouring people in the Balkan region. We now have genetic evidence from Wielbark and Chernyakhov cultural complexes that the Goths most likely came from Southern Scandinavia before migrating to the Vistula and further toward the Steppe. They found a strong similarity between Jutland Iron Age people and those of the Wielbark culture in Poland, which is the likely home of Goths, Rugii and Gepids prior to their later migrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Germanic culture should first exist in the north of Europe and then it is gradually developed, there is actually no evidence of its existence in the north of Europe before 500 BC, the same Germanic culture which already exists traces its origin in Asia, in fact according to Germanic sources, all major cultural developments happened in Asgard which was in Asia.
    Using Snorri Sturluson as evidence is a poor choice, especially when modern scholars worth their salt do not take his works as evidence for much of anything. The etymology of Asgard from Old Norse is more akin to "Garden of the Gods" than anything else. Second, Snorri usually refers to Trojans as the ancestors of Scandinavians, however here is where the problem is, so do several other medieval people, many medieval people attach their history to that of a famous classical civilization as a means to fill in the blanks in a period of history that they do not know in regard to their own people. Snorri Sturluson is not a viable source for the ethnogenesis of Germanic cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I don't know why they don't test for downclades of Persian R1b-L23* so we could discus its relation to European R1b, without this I think we can only speculate! Different theories demand evidences. If R1b-s28 tribes lived in W.Persia so recently then howcome theres none found in the region?
    They should have tested for the downstream SNPs of L23, however they didn’t but judging by YFull and private DNA projects at FTDNA the expected subclades of L23 are seen. R-U152 is very limited to a specific range in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    R1b-s28 is an Italo-Celtic haplogroup, of course it is better to say it is an Etruscan haplogroup:

    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\gotadmin\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

    The fact is that mtDNA haplogroup U7 has been also found in Italy, it is just funny but it is interesting to read what this article says: Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/

    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\gotadmin\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]

    All aboriginal people in Europe are from Iran but Indo-European people who migrated there are not!!!
    Again, haplogroups do not speak language, and why is U152 better said to be an "Etruscan haplogroup"?

    Non-IE Europeans, those predating Indo-Europeans have their origins in hunter-gatherer populations of Europe combined with Early European Farmers who came from the Near East IIRC. This pre-dates Indo-Europeans. In the case of Etruscans this is an entirely separate issue and not related to proto-Germanic. What do Etruscans have to do with Germanic cultures? We already know where the futhark runes come from and that is not the only alphabet to have its roots in Old Italic Script or Cumae Greek both coming from Phoenician (a people who very adept at sea travel and trade and had many colonies throughout the Mediterranean).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    There is a different story, it is certainly possible that subclades of R1b-U106 exist in the east of Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, ... but it relates to Satem language of Carded Ware culture, especially Indo-Iranian, like subclades of R1a-Z282 which have been found both in Scandinavia and Pakistan, as I said in another thread we know Finnish people called people of Scandinavia as Aryan (Orya) and their land Vaejah (Vuoja). What we read in Avesta about Vaejah (original land of Aryans) can be certainly modern Scandinavia.
    Again U106 is not found in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan or India. The South/Central Asia pre-print was full of many errors and they’ve made corrections and we will see these corrections in the future when they release it sometime this year. Do we need to go over the calls again as to why Loebanr_IA is NOT U106? Furthermore the oldest samples of U106 in Europe like I have stated many times PRE-DATE the incorrect sample at Loebanr by quite a large margin.The oldest sample of U106 is in Lille Beddinge Sweden and dated to 2275-2032 BCE. The R-Z282 individuals you mention are on differing branches under R-Y17491 which formed 4600 years ago (Yamnaya and related time-frame).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is interesting to know that the earliest known Germanic inscription is Negau helmet which dates back to 450 BC � 350 BC, it is in a North Etruscan alphabet and has been found in Slovenia. Elder Futhark runes, the oldest form of the runic alphabets, are also commonly believed to originate in the North Etruscan alphabets.

    So it should be said that Aesir-worshippers migrated from Asagarta (Asgard/Zagros) to Tuscany in the north of Italia and from this land their culture spread to the north of Europe.
    Negau Helmet inscription is actually possibly dated to the 2nd Century BCE, which would make it younger than the helmet which is dated anywhere from 450 to 350 BCE. In response to the bolded part, why should this be said? Why is this your go to conclusion about a study of Tuscany and how it relates to Etruscans? What does Germanic mythology or ethnogenesis have to do with Etruscans and Tuscany? We've been over this, there is no evidence for a migration of Indo-European from the Zagros to Northern Europe. Why do we not see this admixture that we would expect from such a migration in Neolithic Scandinavia, Bronze Age Scandinavia or Migration Period Germanic samples from Europe if it really happened? Snorri Sturluson is not a viable source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    A newer study: Mitogenomes from The 1000 Genome Project Reveal New Near Eastern Features in Present-Day Tuscans: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4365045/

    "The present study adds further support to previously reported findings suggesting the presence of a significant Near East component in Tuscan mitogenomes, and points to Iran as the region in the Near East providing the main genetic signal to present day Tuscans."
    There is a new paper on Italy coming out soon and it will be very interesting. I do not see why you are making a connection of Etruscans with Germanic ethnogenesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Look where\when pre-Akkadians lived? if we find this then it could solve the "semitic words in germanic vocabulary" case. Look Maykop culture located in N.Caucasia and pre-Semits too were living in S.Caucasia at the same time so they were neighbouring cultures, IMHO its in this time and location where Semitic vocabulary entered language of R-L51 or R-L151 tribes, after this encounter they(L51) moved to Europe, J1 tribes moved south to Levant then in 2200 BC conquered Sumerians to form the Akkadian empire.
    I would be very wary of Vennemen’s theory, as it is not accepted by majority of linguists or relevant scholars and his Atlantic (Semitic) theory suffers from sparse misinterpreted data. Again, haplogroups do not speak languages, people do. Attributing certain haplogroups solely to a language is an error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I almost think it would be a public service to delete this whole thread, as it is so full of complete misinformation.

    I warned you, Cyrus. I told you I thought perhaps I should inform Maciamo you're back under a sock account.
    I am not opposed to this at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I almost think it would be a public service to delete this whole thread, as it is so full of complete misinformation.

    I warned you, Cyrus. I told you I thought perhaps I should inform Maciamo you're back under a sock account.
    I agree, the fact is that I knew nothing about Tuscans, they are the main people in Europe who relate to Gutians and other ancient people in the west of Iran, so I should focus on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I agree, the fact is that I knew nothing about Tuscans, they are the main people in Europe who relate to Gutians and other ancient people in the west of Iran, so I should focus on them.
    Typical !!! A pseudo-answer, completely off the mark, aimed once again at deflecting off the real purport of the post quoted. With the same unchanging obvious purpose: to keep the bl**dy thread alive, at all costs.

    This is bare-faced t-rolling. I know the position backstage is to let all kinds of weirdos (including me!) express themselves on this forum, as long as they remain harmless. But isn't it about time you moderators took effective action here?
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Typical !!! A pseudo-answer, completely off the mark, aimed once again at deflecting off the real purport of the post quoted. With the same unchanging obvious purpose: to keep the bl**dy thread alive, at all costs.

    This is bare-faced t-rolling. I know the position backstage is to let all kinds of weirdos (including me!) express themselves on this forum, as long as they remain harmless. But isn't it about time you moderators took effective action here?
    I also know what your obvious purpose is, it really doesn't matter for me that this thread is deleted, I already know what I wanted to know, now you should wait for my work which will be published soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    In response to the bolded part, why should this be said? Why is this your go to conclusion about a study of Tuscany and how it relates to Etruscans? What does Germanic mythology or ethnogenesis have to do with Etruscans and Tuscany?
    You yourself should research about it, Etruscans became Aesir-worshippers too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    now you should wait for my work which will be published soon.
    Keep me posted. I can't wait to read the hodgepodge of absurdities it's bound to be!

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    Could the rest of the people who posted on this thread let me know if they object to my deleting the thread? Many of you published important information, which is the only thing keeping me back.

    Or, I could just delete all of Cyrus' posts, but then your posts might not make sense.

  21. #371
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    Negau helmet information means zero in reference to populace

    As an example . The illyrian helmet was made in the Peloponnese and sold to Macedonians tribes firstly............it was made in an area very close where where the Corinthian helmet was made ................finding helmets, shields, weapons etc in one area means zero, not every people made armour and weapons, there was not many places on manufacturers of armour in europe until after the dark ages
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
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    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  22. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could the rest of the people who posted on this thread let me know if they object to my deleting the thread? Many of you published important information, which is the only thing keeping me back.

    Or, I could just delete all of Cyrus' posts, but then your posts might not make sense.
    You must have guessed how I feel about it by now. :)

  23. #373
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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Keep me posted. I can't wait to read the hodgepodge of absurdities it's bound to be!
    I have deciphered some parts of ancient Jiroft inscriptions of Kerman, you will learn many new things about the history of Indo-Europeans, you just don't know who I am.

  24. #374
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    Look friends please don't get overly angry when people post different theories in the forum just disagree with them by posting your own point of view with evidence which point to the contrary. Forums are where people of different theories, views want to discuss their subjects.

  25. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Look friends please don't get overly angry when people post different theories in the forum just disagree with them by posting your own point of view with evidence which point to the contrary. Forums are where people of different theories, views want to discuss their subjects.
    Right agree. But when fantasy replaces facts.....theory must have a fundament nornosh.


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