What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

[Cyrus]

There is a huge difference.
I plot genetically close to the early Germanic tribes and to Nordic LNBA.
I don't plot close to the people of Karmenia, it's up to you to show that they plot close to the Germani. But no evidence of that.
Between LNBA and nowadays there is no major shift in Germanic genetics. So no Germani coming in from Persia. They left no traces.
No trace, no story!
This is all in category Aryanism, 'also sprach Zarahustra....' Romantic (or even worse) schwaermerei (to say it in German).

Ok, between LNBA and nowadays there is no major shift in Germanic genetics but Nordic LNBA dates back to 1,600 BC, almost 1,000 years after the earliest mentions of ancient Gutians in the Mespotamian sources, from another side, we know the original land of Germanic people, as an Indo-European people, was in Iran, so even in your theory it is certainly possible that Goths, Germans, ... came from Iran. If we assume that your theory is correct, it can be said about my theory that in the 1st millennium bc Germanic people still lived in Iran.

 

[Northener]

Ok, between LNBA and nowadays there is no major shift in Germanic genetics but Nordic LNBA dates back to 1,600 BC, almost 1,000 years after the earliest mentions of ancient Gutians in the Mespotamian sources, from another side, we know the original land of Germanic people, as an Indo-European people, was in Iran, so even in your theory it is certainly possible that Goths, Germans, ... came from Iran. If we assume that your theory is correct, it can be said about my theory that in the 1st millennium bc Germanic people still lived in Iran.

No prove, nothing sure.
About 2800 BC was the Corded Ware Single Grave influx, they were Indo European, this is for the whole North European plain and Southern Scandinavia. The chances are bigger that these people went also to the Iran area. Than that there was an Iran-North Europe axis.

When these people liver in Iran 1000 BC and they went afterwards let’s say 500 BC to NW Europe there has to be genetic smilarites. There aren’t.

But you are a believer, so (genetic) facts obviously don’t matter.....


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[Cyrus]

No prove, nothing sure.
About 2800 BC was the Corded Ware Single Grave influx, they were Indo European, this is for the whole North European plain and Southern Scandinavia. The chances are bigger that these people went also to the Iran area. Than that there was an Iran-North Europe axis.

When these people liver in Iran 1000 BC and they went afterwards let’s say 500 BC to NW Europe there has to be genetic smilarites. There aren’t.

But you are a believer, so (genetic) facts obviously don’t matter.....


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

I believe in what geneticists say but it seems modern studies don't matter for you and you prefer to believe just the old ones.

 

[Northener]

I believe in what geneticists say but it seems modern studies don't matter for you and you prefer to believe just the old ones.

This says nothing I can draw some lines on a map too.....
You are willing to believe that Germans have Iranian roots, everything that is against it is ignored. But evidence of it is not there.
So dream on.

 

[johen]

Considering a similarity between geman and iranian, nostratic language theory is very persuasive. It seemed to be caused by ANE descendants, even if the nostratic has seriously theoretical problems.

According to dr. yates book old world roots of the cherokee,
Greek, not french, not english, has some similarity to cherokee.

 

[nornosh]

When the mainstream theory says IEs colonized Europe, Middle east, C.Asia from 2500-1700 BCs from Pontic steppes then why Cyrus don't accept this its not very far from his theory of 1st millenium BC in time, geography? Pontic steppe, W.Persia are located in Eurasia anyways. When we say Pontic steppes/Caucasus it encompasses the entire region anyhow.

 

[Pip]

Ok, between LNBA and nowadays there is no major shift in Germanic genetics but Nordic LNBA dates back to 1,600 BC, almost 1,000 years after the earliest mentions of ancient Gutians in the Mespotamian sources, from another side, we know the original land of Germanic people, as an Indo-European people, was in Iran, so even in your theory it is certainly possible that Goths, Germans, ... came from Iran. If we assume that your theory is correct, it can be said about my theory that in the 1st millennium bc Germanic people still lived in Iran.

What if it were the other way round? (That some Germanics moved into Iran during the first millennium BC, rather than Iranians moving into Germany.)
This better fits the genetic data:
1. North European R1a-M417 appears in Iran
2. Baltic-like autosomal DNA appears in Iran then (in an Indo-Iranian migration apparently later than the first Indo-Aryan migration)
3. I cannot see any obvious yDNA or autosomal DNA moving in the opposite direction

The Mesopotamian mentions of Gutians might have been a reference to a Germanic-related group that came down from the North Western Steppe/Eastern Baltic during the first wave of Indo-Aryans. The Indo-Iranian wave appears to have come later, but from the same source, having similar NE European autosomal profiles.

 

[johen]

When the mainstream theory says IEs colonized Europe, Middle east, C.Asia from 2500-1700 BCs from Pontic steppes then why Cyrus don't accept this its not very far from his theory of 1st millenium BC in time, geography? Pontic steppe, W.Persia are located in Eurasia anyways. When we say Pontic steppes/Caucasus it encompasses the entire region anyhow.

That is why people are concerned about IE theory, not b/c of just migration, but b/c of colonizing almost whole eurasia. That is why I always think that another third party participated in this IE theory project. 20 years later, maybe India?

ANE descendant (or EHG group) dominated steppe of central asia til EMBA. Later, their power expanded to central europe and china by seima turbino with brutality and super tin weapon.

Under the circumstances, how do we think IE relay-race migration always all the way to altai and finally india? democratic society at that time?

 

[Cyrus]

When the mainstream theory says IEs colonized Europe, Middle east, C.Asia from 2500-1700 BCs from Pontic steppes then why Cyrus don't accept this its not very far from his theory of 1st millenium BC in time, geography? Pontic steppe, W.Persia are located in Eurasia anyways. When we say Pontic steppes/Caucasus it encompasses the entire region anyhow.

What do you mean by IEs? We know IEs were initially divided into two different groups: Satem and Centum. Corded Ware culture could be either the land of satem-speaking people (Balto-Slvaic, Indo-Iranian, Armenian, ...) or centum-speakign people (Anatolian, Hellenic, Germanic, ...). It is impossible to deny that all IE words in proto-Uralic are from Satem languages (especially Indo-Iranian), not Centum, so they were certainly satem-speaking people who lived in the north of Eurasia, especially Scandinavia.

I don't know why we should believe in the most impossible miracles, how an absolute Centum language like Germanic can be come out from a satem language (Corded Ware culture)?

 

[Pip]

I don't know why we should believe in the most impossible miracles, how an absolute Centum language like Germanic can be come out from a satem language (Corded Ware culture)?

One doesn't necessarily come out of the other; both could have had a common root. Conflating genetics, language and culture can lead to premature conclusions.

Autosomal genetics suggest that people regarded as Germanics are essentially CW-descendant people infused with some DNA from dominant R1b and I1 paternal lineages. It looks like several groups of them did not succumb or fit in and migrated away. They would have adopted different dialects and cultural practices, depending on intra-group balances and on the environments and peoples they joined elsewhere.

 

[Cyrus]

One doesn't necessarily come out of the other; both could have had a common root. Conflating genetics, language and culture can lead to premature conclusions.

Autosomal genetics suggest that people regarded as Germanics are essentially CW-descendant people infused with some DNA from dominant R1b and I1 paternal lineages. It looks like several groups of them did not succumb or fit in and migrated away. They would have adopted different dialects and cultural practices, depending on intra-group balances and on the environments and peoples they joined elsewhere.

In the ancient times people didn't fly from a land to another land, all linguistic evidences show that in the 3rd millennium bc there was just Satem language in the north of Eurasia, when you say Germanics are essentially CW-descendant people, it means they were originally a Satem-speaking people but Germanic language is certainly a Centum language, like ancient Anatolian languages in the northwest of Iran.

The same things can be said to those who claim in the 3rd millennium bc there were Indo-Iranian or Armenian people in the west of Iran, all linguistic evidences show that in this period there was just Centum language in this region, not Satem, so the original people of this region were certainly a Centum-speaking people.

 

[johen]

In the ancient times people didn't fly from a land to another land, all linguistic evidences show that in the 3rd millennium bc there was just Satem language in the north of Eurasia, when you say Germanics are essentially CW-descendant people, it means they were originally a Satem-speaking people but Germanic language is certainly a Centum language,

any chance of german language to be from R1b BB culture?

I don't know the language, but centum celtic/gemanic/greek seems to be R1b, but different clade, which means different origin. Likewise satem slavic and indo-iranian is R1a, but different clade. Even if heaven collapses, archaeology does not allow CW to connect to sintashta.

 

[Pip]

In the ancient times people didn't fly from a land to another land.

No, they went on foot, by boat and on horseback. It didn't have to be the long gradual process that many assume.

 

[Pip]

In the ancient times people didn't fly from a land to another land, all linguistic evidences show that in the 3rd millennium bc there was just Satem language in the north of Eurasia, when you say Germanics are essentially CW-descendant people, it means they were originally a Satem-speaking people but Germanic language is certainly a Centum language, like ancient Anatolian languages in the northwest of Iran.
The same things can be said to those who claim in the 3rd millennium bc there were Indo-Iranian or Armenian people in the west of Iran, all linguistic evidences show that in this period there was just Centum language in this region, not Satem, so the original people of this region were certainly a Centum-speaking people.

I'm talking genetics, not languages. Just because Germanics look mostly CW autosmally, this didn't prevent their ancestors from adopting a centum language, presumably mainly from the R1b-U106 people with whom they admixed and traded. Nor did it prevent several groups of them from migrating south eastwards towards the Caspian at various points in their development history. Genetic data suggests this happened at around the time you consider they were moving in the opposite direction. Yes, I suppose it's quite likely that some moved back to the Baltic, bringing the odd Iranian with them.

 

[Cyrus]

any chance of german language to be from R1b BB culture?
I don't know the language, but centum celtic/gemanic/greek seems to be R1b, but different clade, which means different origin. Likewise satem slavic and indo-iranian is R1a, but different clade. Even if heaven collapses, archaeology does not allow CW to connect to sintashta.

I don't see any reason for considering Bell Beaker culture as Indo-European, R1b has the highest frequency among Basques who are not an Indo-European people. As another member said in this thread, I also believe just subclades of R1b-Z2103 relate to original Indo-Europeans.

 

[johen]

I don't see any reason for considering Bell Beaker culture as Indo-European, R1b has the highest frequency among Basques who are not an Indo-European people. As another member said in this thread, I also believe just subclades of R1b-Z2103 relate to original Indo-Europeans.

you're correct. I don't mean that all R1b people were speaking IE, but I just mentioned that R1b seems to a connecting point of centum celtic, greek and gemanic. Those language has not common clade, hence, german could be a line of L51. Ancient greek could be with Z2013, but we don't know celtic clade. Actually it is just my guess.

 

[Cyrus]

I'm talking genetics, not languages. Just because Germanics look mostly CW autosmally, this didn't prevent their ancestors from adopting a centum language, presumably mainly from the R1b-U106 people with whom they admixed and traded. Nor did it prevent several groups of them from migrating south eastwards towards the Caspian at various points in their development history. Genetic data suggests this happened at around the time you consider they were moving in the opposite direction. Yes, I suppose it's quite likely that some moved back to the Baltic, bringing the odd Iranian with them.

R1b-U106 seems to be originally a Rhaetian haplogroup, not Indo-European. R1b existed in Europe from at least 14,000 years ago, when geneticists talk about Indo-European origin in modern Iran, it doesn't mean almost the whole people of Europe migrated from Iran.

 

[nornosh]

R1b-U106 seems to be originally a Rhaetian haplogroup, not Indo-European. R1b existed in Europe from at least 14,000 years ago, when geneticists talk about Indo-European origin in modern Iran, it doesn't mean almost the whole people of Europe migrated from Iran.

oh if R1b-U106 too is originally from Europe then which(Germanic) ydna hgs migrated in 500 BC from Zagros then, I am very confused?

This Satem, Centum thing is much less important than people give them, if one IE language diverge to hundreds of languages then how come CW satem cannot change to Germanic Centum with some Celtic influence" their new neighbours in West Europe"? Has Thor, Zeus guaranteed Centum remain centum, satem remain satem lol

 

[Cyrus]

oh if R1b-U106 too is originally from Europe then which(Germanic) ydna hgs migrated in 500 BC from Zagros then, I am very confused?

In 500 BC Europe is a well-populated area and we shouldn't expect to see a huge change in DNA, anyway you think the same haplogroup R1b-Z2103 that I mentioned, also J2, Q, ... came from which land?

This Satem, Centum thing is much less important than people give them, if one IE language diverge to hundreds of languages then how come CW satem cannot change to Germanic Centum with some Celtic influence" their new neighbours in West Europe"? Has Thor, Zeus guaranteed Centum remain centum, satem remain satem lol

What is your imagination about Indo-European sound changes?!! For example proto-IE *gʷ is changed to dʒ/? in Satem languages but b in Celtic, how these sound could be changed to kʷ in proto-Germanic?!
Without any doubt proto-Germanic is a direct descendant of proto-Indo-European.

 

[Pip]

R1b-U106 seems to be originally a Rhaetian haplogroup, not Indo-European. R1b existed in Europe from at least 14,000 years ago, when geneticists talk about Indo-European origin in modern Iran, it doesn't mean almost the whole people of Europe migrated from Iran.

Are you saying Germanic U106 also came into Europe from Iran in the 1st millennium BC, but speaking a wholly different (Rhaetian) language to other Germanic (IE) migrants from Iran?
If so, how is there an early 2nd millennium BC Swedish U106 sample? Why would phylogeny suggest U106 development around Sweden and the Western Baltic pre-2,000 BC?
And why would Swedish Bronze Age samples be such a close match to modern Germanic U106 samples autosomally?