Silesian
Junior Member
- Messages
- 739
- Reaction score
- 104
- Points
- 43
- Ethnic group
- Citizen of Earth.
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-BY593
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5b2a2
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spruithean said:You've not seen the recent papers on Uralic and associated Y-haplogroups have you?
Any word from a centum language in Finnic/Samic?
Germanic loanwords in Finnic that arrived PRIOR to long a raising:
Finnish hake- from PGmc *sākija-
Finnish raha from PGmc *skrahā
Finnish kavio from Pre-PGmc *kāpa-
Finnish lieka from Pre-PGmc *lēgā-
(PRE-proto-Germanic loans right there)
Early Finnic & Samic Germanic loanwords demonstrating earlier *e prior to i-mutation
Finnish teljo from PGmc *?eljō
Finnish mennink?inen from PGmc *men?ingō
Northern Sami deahkki from early PGmc *?ekkwiz
Northern Sami jievja from early PGmc *heują
Finnish rengas from early PGmc *hrengaz
Or what about Finnish ruhtinas from PGmc *druhtinaz? Will you ignore these?
Or Finnic *kuningas from Proto-Germanic *kuningaz, or this same word *kuningaz being the influence for Northern Sami: gonagas and other variants in various Sami languages. What about Proto-Germanic *lambaz found in Proto-Finnic *lambas (descendants are found in Estonian to Votic) which is also shared with Samic languages and this isn't even a full list of the Germanic loanwords in Finnic/Samic languages.
What are these genetic samples? R1b has the highest frequency in the west of Europe where Basques and other non-Indo-European people lived, the oldest samples of R1b has been also found in Europe which date back to 14,000 years ago, it is very clear that this haplogroup came from west to east.
I can't understand how it is possible that in the 1st millennium BC the languages of most of people who lived in the west of Europe were non-Indo-European but we relate haplogroup R1b which had the highest frequency among them to Indo-Europeans?!
Sometimes I think you actually want to support my theory! Almost all Finnish words that you mentioned are from proto-Germanic (after 500 BC) but those ones that you said are from pre-Proto-Germanic actually show the Germanic migration from the west of Iran to the north of Europe.
For example about proto-Finnic *kapja "hoof", if you remember I had mentioned Arabic xuf "hoof": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/خف#Etymology_2 linguists believe the reconstructed IE word *ḱoph₂�s "hoof" is a loanword from proto-Semitic: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ḱoph₂ós
Proto-Germanic *xufaz seems to be a direct loanword from Semitic but we see irregular sound changes in Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages, both x and f didn't exist in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic phonologies, in Indo-Iranian x has been palatalized to ć and f has been aspirated to pʰ, so we have Indo-Iranian *ćapʰ�s but we see regular x>k and f>p in Balto-Slavic, so it is *kopyto, proto-Finnic word is clearly from Balto-Slavic.
Do you not pay attention to the complete lack of Iranian-like admixture in prehistoric Scandinavia/Northern Europe?
Sometimes I think you actually want to support my theory! Almost all Finnish words that you mentioned are from proto-Germanic (after 500 BC) but those ones that you said are from pre-Proto-Germanic actually show the Germanic migration from the west of Iran to the north of Europe.
For example about proto-Finnic *kapja "hoof", if you remember I had mentioned Arabic xuf "hoof": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/خف#Etymology_2 linguists believe the reconstructed IE word *ḱoph₂�s "hoof" is a loanword from proto-Semitic: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ḱoph₂ós
Proto-Germanic *xufaz seems to be a direct loanword from Semitic but we see irregular sound changes in Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages, both x and f didn't exist in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic phonologies, in Indo-Iranian x has been palatalized to ć and f has been aspirated to pʰ, so we have Indo-Iranian *ćapʰ�s but we see regular x>k and f>p in Balto-Slavic, so it is *kopyto, proto-Finnic word is clearly from Balto-Slavic.
Sorry, but you produce the evolution X>k and f>p but almost everytime it's rather the opposite. At least in Germanic (and other languages) this is the rule, and the words with K- or P- are rather loans made before the Germanics devoicing/"spirantizing" mutation (I don't find the correct english word, sorry).
Because you don't pay attention to what I said about mtDNA haplogroup U7.
Social Structures and Mobility
Different sex-related mobility patterns for Sigtuna inhabitants have been suggested based on material culture, especially ceramics. Building on design and clay analyses, some female potters in Sigtuna are thought to have grown up in Novgorod in Rus’ [40]. Moreover, historical sources mention female mobility in connection to marriage, especially among the elite from Rus’ and West Slavonic regions [41, 42]. Male mobility is also known from historical sources, often in connection to clergymen moving to the town [43].
It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English
caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.
Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje
From Proto-Finnic *h�lgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *��lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian h�ljes.
The lone instance of it in a single female Viking grave? I'm not ignoring it, it is a single sample, you cannot use that as evidence of anything when we already know that a fair number of people from outside of Scandinavia were there in the Viking Age (the Sigtuna paper highlights this). A single case from the medieval period does not say much in regards to the ethnogenesis of Germanic-speaking peoples.
From the Sigtuna paper:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218308443
We see a similar scenario in Migration period papers where they highlight higher female mobility.
Please, not even once does your link to hylje even connect it to Iran.
Human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U is among the initial maternal founders in Southwest Asia and Europe and one that best indicates matrilineal genetic continuity between late Pleistocene hunter-gatherer groups and present-day populations of Europe. While most haplogroup U subclades are older than 30 thousand years, the comparatively recent coalescence time of the extant variation of haplogroup U7 (~16–19 thousand years ago) suggests that its current distribution is the consequence of more recent dispersal events, despite its wide geographical range across Europe, the Near East and South Asia. Here we report 267 new U7 mitogenomes that – analysed alongside 100 published ones – enable us to discern at least two distinct temporal phases of dispersal, both of which most likely emanated from the Near East. The earlier one began prior to the Holocene (~11.5 thousand years ago) towards South Asia, while the later dispersal took place more recently towards Mediterranean Europe during the Neolithic (~8 thousand years ago). These findings imply that the carriers of haplogroup U7 spread to South Asia and Europe before the suggested Bronze Age expansion of Indo-European languages from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region.
Because you don't pay attention to what I said about mtDNA haplogroup U7.
Look Germanics settled the North from southern Germany
It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.
Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje
From Proto-Finnic *h�lgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *��lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian h�ljes.
Of course there is no evidence about the existence of Celtic and Italic people in Europe before the 1st millennium BC too, in fact we know before 500 BC in Italy the main languages were Etruscan, Camunic, Picenian, Ligurian, Sicanian, Paleo-Sardinian, ... which ere not Indo-European, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, ... people spoke Rhaetian language which is believed to be a Tyrsenian language, not Indo-European, and in the west of Europe the main languages were Vasconic, Aquitanian, Iberian and Tartessian languages. R1b has still the highest frequency among Basques who are not an Indo-European people.
Northener said:I don't know what's going on here, but this all makes no sense. No plausible story based on what these gentleman put forward.
Reasonable replies from for example Spruithaen are replied with another random straw....without any coherency.
Let me tell you there is no plausible connection between the genetics of the Germans and Iranian or Persian tribes. Fairy tales.
The German genetics are een historical admixture of funnel beaker (Ertebolle/ENF mixture) and highly Steppe influenced Single Grave and Bell Beaker. This al took place from LNBA and beyond on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia. Not that fantastic movement of 'Germanic tribes' rushing in from Iran....yeah sure.
Did you know that the Groningers in the Netherlands are Inca derived? Why? Because the genes of the potatoes in Groningen show a basic resemblance of those in the Andes. So there most be a connection....
But a rational debate seems to be hard.....that's a loss because a good discussion about my ancestry would be nice. But this shows IMO a tendency towards throlling.....
spruithean said:A "~30,000 year old" haplogroup that likely originated in the Black Sea area?
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044
I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."
Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html
"A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.
The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.
The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.
The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.
She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."
Northener said:First of all the Germans were not 'newborn' in the iron age/Jastorf. They didn't fall out of space. The 'original' Germans genetic roots lays the Bronze Age. So did the Germans of the European migration ages in the early middle ages. And even nowadays my family falls in this specific genetic cluster.
The Vikings later on had many connections they also found a Buddha among the Vikings, that doesn't make them Buddhist or Indian
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/t...ng-age-buddha/
I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."
Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html
"A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.
The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.
The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.
The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.
She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."
Please, you certainly know we are talking about what haplogroup and where its original land is.
The Viking World, page 266:
North Sea Archaeologies: A Maritime Biography, 10,000 BC - AD 1500, page 211:
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