What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

[Cyrus]

You continue to ignore actual language laws and developments that preceded various aspects of a language, yet again you compare two Indo-European cultures that have parallels and you believe that to be evidence? All Indo-European cultures have similarities (Sky God, Storm God, Divine Twins, Horse Twins) and that shouldn't be a surprise really.

Generalization can't solve this issue, there are certainly some things which are common in almost all IE cultures, but if you believe for example Germanic and Indo-Iranian progenitor Mannus and his twin brother Yima/Ymir exist in other IE cultures, please mention them. Or Iranian allfather Awtin (Abtin) and Germanic allfather Wodan (Odin) and his wife Franak (Frya) and Frigga (Friyo) (More info) with the same names exist in other IE cultures, you should talk about them, also the chief gods Asura/Aesir, Tir/Tyr, ... these are so important and can fundamentally change my theory.

 

[Cyrus]

So it appears we are talking principally about language, rather than genetics or culture.
I am interested in genetics, rather than language, but it seems Proto-Germanic had a very long gestation period (a formation directly from PIE somewhere between 4,500-2,500 BC and a TMRCA which Wikipedia estimates as 500 BC).

I agree about what you said about the gestation period of proto-Germanic (2,500 BC - 500 BC) but it reached to the north of Europe through the Late Hallstatt culture (500 BC).

https://meeting.physanth.org/program/2012/session06/lee-2012-an-ancient-dna-perspective-on-the-iron-age-princely-burials-from-baden-wurttemberg-germany.html

During the Iron Age in Europe, fundamental social principles such as age, gender, status, and kinship were thought to have played an important role in the social structure of Late Hallstatt and Early Latène societies. In order to address the question of kinship relations represented in the Iron Age “princely burials” that are characterized by their rich material culture, we carried out genetic analysis of individuals associated with the Late Hallstatt culture from Baden-Württemberg, Germany. Bone specimens of thirty-eight skeletal remains were collected from five sites including Asperg Grafenbühl, Mühlacker Heidenwäldle, Hirschlanden, Ludwigsburg, and Schodeingen. Specimens were subjected to DNA extraction and amplification under strict criteria for ancient DNA analysis. We successfully obtained mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region sequences from seventeen individuals that showed different haplotypes, which were assigned to nine haplogroups including haplogroups H, I, K, U5, U7, W, and X2b. Despite the lack of information from nuclear DNA to infer familial relations, information from the mtDNA suggests an intriguing genetic composition of the Late Hallstatt burials. In particular, twelve distinct haplotypes from Asperg Grafenbühl suggest a heterogeneous composition of maternal lineages represented in the “princely burials”. The results from this study provide clues to the social structure reflected in the burial patterns of the Late Hallstatt culture and implications on the genetic landscape during the Iron Age in Europe.

Would you please explain what it means in genetics?

Especially this subclade:

U7b5: Lur2_270/Lur/Iran & U7b5a: Tor747/German/Germany & U7b5a1: IrAz_F73/Azari/Iran

 

[Northener]

What happened after 1934, in fact in 1935, is the establishment of the Nuremberg Laws (racial purity laws), we see all researches about the Germanic migration from Luristan were stopped and researchers focused on just the racial purity of the Germanic people. In fact a pro-Semitic hypothesis was changed to an anti-Semitic hypothesis. We can still see this type of ultra-nationalism in the Germanic lands, they actually don't want to research about these issues, I sent an email to one of these Germanologists and asked about the history of Germanic culture before 800 BC and mentioned my own hypothesis and he replied "I don't know and I don't want know!"

Fabolous so the Nurenberg laws did prevent your magnificent Luristan theory.....huh huh conspiracy conspiracy on the wall.

When I state in answers of the question of this topic what does genetics say about the origins of Germanic people that the ‘Germans’ as first used by the Romans to describe the people right of the Rhine are an amalgam or Ertebølle HG, Funnelbeaker Neolithic and Single Grave and NW Bell Beaker people and genetics. That’s the core thing.

No single sign of an Iranian influx.

And as an answer we only get bla bla bla.

Sorry I’m mostly moderate to people who disagree with me but this kind of things is getting ridiculous. Even insulting.


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[bigsnake49]

I don't see why you need to have published outside of Iran, to have "peers" agree with you or to have a certificate in order to be able propose an idea.

Because, first, we cannot have access to his papers if they are written in Farsi and second he could be part of a nationalistic agenda. He can propose all the ideas he wants but he has to be able to prove them.

 

[Jovialis]

What are "Germanic people"? Does this mean German-speaking people, people who have adopted Germanic cultures or people who are typically German genetically? (The thread comes under y-DNA, so perhaps the question is intended to refer specifically to Germanic paternal genetics.) As such, there are many possible different interpretations of the question, all with different answers.

Being Celto-Germanic in a genetic sense seems pretty damn quantifiable to me.

 

[Cyrus]

Fabolous so the Nurenberg laws did prevent your magnificent Luristan theory.....huh huh conspiracy conspiracy on the wall.

When I state in answers of the question of this topic what does genetics say about the origins of Germanic people that the ‘Germans’ as first used by the Romans to describe the people right of the Rhine are an amalgam or Ertebølle HG, Funnelbeaker Neolithic and Single Grave and NW Bell Beaker people and genetics. That’s the core thing.

No single sign of an Iranian influx.

And as an answer we only get bla bla bla.

Sorry I’m mostly moderate to people who disagree with me but this kind of things is getting ridiculous. Even insulting.


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

I think you don't want to deny that Germanic people are an Indo-European people, do you?
The original land of Indo-Europeans was somewhere around the Caspian sea, like Anatolia, Armenia, Caspian steppe, what if it is proved that this original land was even in Iran, is it an insult?!
The interesting thing is that some of the greatest geneticists are already talking about it, for example David Reich says: "the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians".

 

[Northener]

I think you don't want to deny that Germanic people are an Indo-European people, do you?
The original land of Indo-Europeans was somewhere around the Caspian sea, like Anatolia, Armenia, Caspian steppe, what if it is proved that this original land was even in Iran, is it an insult?!
The interesting thing is that some of the greatest geneticists are already talking about it, for example David Reich says: "the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians".

Why should I deny this, but a Indo European influx from 2800 BC (CW/Single Grave) is something different not to be compared with importing a 'ready made' Germanic culture/language straight away from Iran thousand of years later.

 

[Northener]

So mister Cyrus you will still argue with dry eyes that Germans are an Irian tribe derivative and not born out of an amalgam between of Ertebølle HG, Funnelbeaker Neolithic and Single Grave and NW Bell Beaker people? Where could I found those tribes in my auDNA? Nada.

 

[Cyrus]

Why should I deny this, but a Indo European influx from 2800 BC (CW/Single Grave) is something different not to be compared with importing a 'ready made' Germanic culture/language straight away from Iran thousand of years later.

Forget old theories, geneticists are already talking about Indo-European origin in Iran, it is possible the main haplogroup of Indo-Europeans was neither R1a, nor R1b but J2, so your European haplogroups of aboriginal Europeans probably didn't relate to the original Germanic people.

 

[Northener]

Forget old theories, geneticists are already talking about Indo-European origin in Iran, it is possible the main haplogroup of Indo-Europeans was neither R1a, nor R1b but J2, so your European haplogroups of aboriginal Europeans probably didn't relate to the original Germanic people.

You are a historian?

Germanic is a product of history. The Romans were the first that used that word. They described it for people living right of the Rhine.

The Germans at that time were a result of mixing (see for the components ^^^). They were not a kind of coherent people that transferred from Iran to NW Europe et le voila the Germans (inc. language and culture) were there. That would be a kind of mediaval or very bad nineteenth century history writing. Long outdated and inadequate.

Do you really think an Iranian tribe came here and was responsible for a Germanic genetic profile and culture? Really?

Go fool someone else Cyrus these are 1001 night fairy tales.

And it's even worse this sentence 'this original land was even in Iran, is it an insult?!' implies IMO a kind of inferiority complex. In other postings this pops up reverse and is Iran the belly button of the world.

I can tell you I don't give a dam if genetic parts of Germans came from Siberia, Swaziland or Chili or whatsoever but I don't like these biased kind of stuff.

 

[Pip]

Because, first, we cannot have access to his papers if they are written in Farsi and second he could be part of a nationalistic agenda. He can propose all the ideas he wants but he has to be able to prove them.

He could still propose a reasonable idea, whichever language the idea is written in.
Whether he has nationalistic agenda is irrelevant to the requirement you seem to set that his ideas can only be validated by "peer review" and accreditation.
And if anything on this forum could truly be "proven", there would be no reason to have a forum for discussion at all.
This is supposed to be an exchange of ideas and information, not verbal combat.

 

[spruithean]

Generalization can't solve this issue, there are certainly some things which are common in almost all IE cultures, but if you believe for example Germanic and Indo-Iranian progenitor Mannus and his twin brother Yima/Ymir exist in other IE cultures, please mention them. Or Iranian allfather Awtin (Abtin) and Germanic allfather Wodan (Odin) and his wife Franak (Frya) and Frigga (Friyo) (More info) with the same names exist in other IE cultures, you should talk about them, also the chief gods Asura/Aesir, Tir/Tyr, ... these are so important and can fundamentally change my theory.

I'm not a fan of citing Wikipedia, however even a cursory glance at ALL other Indo-European religions reveals parallels between all of the various branches of PIE, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology, this doesn't not automatically mean that proto-Germanic speakers were from Iran. Cyrus, for the seemingly 1,000,000th time, why do you ignore the fact that there is no evidence for this proposed out of Iran migration for proto-Germanic? Why do Northern European populations (and Bronze Age, Iron Age, etc) plot farther away from Iranian populations? Your constant goalpost shifting is very tiring.
Also, you posted earlier

I agree about what you said about the gestation period of proto-Germanic (2,500 BC - 500 BC) but it reached to the north of Europe through the Late Hallstatt culture (500 BC).
https://meeting.physanth.org/program/2012/session06/lee-2012-an-ancient-dna-perspective-on-the-iron-age-princely-burials-from-baden-wurttemberg-germany.html

Would you please explain what it means in genetics?

Especially this subclade:
U7b5: Lur2_270/Lur/Iran & U7b5a: Tor747/German/Germany & U7b5a1: IrAz_F73/Azari/Iran

Again, we've been over this. A published paper established TWO dispersal events for U7, both of which are BEFORE the Bronze Age. Read the paper again and actually try to understand it in a context outside of your pet theory. Uniparental markers are NOT the sole determinants of a populations history. Why do we not see this Bronze Age/Iron Age Zagros region admixture in Germanic populations or populations preceding Germanic populations (Iron Age Jutland, Bronze Age Scandinavia, etc)?

Being Celto-Germanic in a genetic sense seems pretty damn quantifiable to me.

This will unfortunately be largely be ignored in favour of a biased pet theory...

I think you don't want to deny that Germanic people are an Indo-European people, do you?
The original land of Indo-Europeans was somewhere around the Caspian sea, like Anatolia, Armenia, Caspian steppe, what if it is proved that this original land was even in Iran, is it an insult?!
The interesting thing is that some of the greatest geneticists are already talking about it, for example David Reich says: "the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians".

You've misunderstood Northener, yet again. You should read more of what David Reich, David Anthony and several others have to say about the PIE origins and the locations. None of them say that proto-Germanic came from Iran. There is no evidence for your theory and the onus is on you to present any evidence and present it in a way that explains the discrepancies. Can you do that for us?

Forget old theories, geneticists are already talking about Indo-European origin in Iran, it is possible the main haplogroup of Indo-Europeans was neither R1a, nor R1b but J2, so your European haplogroups of aboriginal Europeans probably didn't relate to the original Germanic people.

Uh huh, now we're shifting the haplogroup focus because the others don't quite fit your narrative, ah okay.

which admixtures we would have seen if Cyrus's theories were right? because he says they(Germanics) were unmixed at the time they left Zagros region, so he makes it hard for others to contradict him lol.

We would expect to see Bronze Age or Iron Age Iran components in the autosomal DNA, this would make the PCA charts look very different, we'd see a higher affinity to Near East populations, and we don't see that. I shared a few links to several PCA charts a few posts back. Yes, of course that is his go to answer, because it leaves out the need for a real answer, the complete lack of evidence by saying that they were extremely endogenous lol. The archaeology supports a very different theory to Cyrus' and the genetic data we have so far is rather consistent with the archaeology and the various cultural spheres of prehistoric Europe.

The fact is that I just wanted to know what genetics says about the origin of modern Germanic people. What I know is that a Germanic culture existed in the west of Iran from at least 3rd millinium bc to the first half of the 1st millennium BC, but geneticists should say what happened latter, it is possible that some people from this part of Iran migrated directly to the North Europe or they migrated to another part of Europe, like Tuscany, and from this land the Germanic culture spread to the north of Europe, ...
If you believe that the Germanic culture didn't exist in Iran, you should either prove that Indo-Europeans never migrated to Iran before the 1st millennium BC or those who migrated couldn't be proto-Germanic people. For example you can say for these reasons an Indo-European language couldn't be changed to proto-Germanic in Iran. Why for example the German city of Munich/München is pronounced as Munix/Munxen in Iran, and probably Tuscany?

Germanic culture did not exist in the west of Iran. What is your evidence for this? Where is the autosomal admixture evidence of Bronze Age/Iron Age Iran populations in Bronze Age/Iron Age samples of Northern Europe? You've yet to account for the large discrepancies in your theory, archaeology does not support your theory and neither does genetic data. Hell, even relevant linguists do not support anything remotely close to your theory.

 

[spruithean]

He could still propose a reasonable idea, whichever language the idea is written in.
Whether he has nationalistic agenda is irrelevant to the requirement you seem to set that his ideas can only be validated by "peer review" and accreditation.
And if anything on this forum could truly be "proven", there would be no reason to have a forum for discussion at all.
This is supposed to be an exchange of ideas and information, not verbal combat.

Sure, but when people throughout several threads on various topics have presented decent rebuttals with solid backing information and it is largely ignored or taken out of context, it ruins discussions, hell the OP's seemingly deliberate removals of parts of quotes from various sources is also a cause for concern.

 

[Pip]

Being Celto-Germanic in a genetic sense seems pretty damn quantifiable to me.

I'm not keen on these scatter diagrams, which seem a bit primary school to me. We could judge quantifiability better if we were presented with actual numbers.

That said, I agree regarding quantifiability if we stick to genetics.

 

[Pip]

Sure, but when people throughout several threads on various topics have presented decent rebuttals with solid backing information and it is largely ignored or taken out of context, it ruins discussions, hell the OP's seemingly deliberate removals of parts of quotes from various sources is also a cause for concern.

Yes, although ignoring presented information or taking it out of context seems to cut both ways - it looks endemic on this thread and on these forums generally, more's the pity. You have to wade through a mass of pointless slanging matches in order to reach the odd useful piece of information hidden within them.

 

[Cyrus]

You are a historian?


Germanic is a product of history. The Romans were the first that used that word. They described it for people living right of the Rhine.

I'm a historian and I know the exact word "Germani" was first used by Herodotus in the 5th century BC as a people who lived in Iran, not Europe.

The Germans at that time were a result of mixing (see for the components ^^^). They were not a kind of coherent people that transferred from Iran to NW Europe et le voila the Germans (inc. language and culture) were there. That would be a kind of mediaval or very bad nineteenth century history writing. Long outdated and inadequate.

The Germanic culture in Europe certainly differed from the original one in Iran, we see strong influences especially from ancient Roman and Nordic cultures, but I think almost all nationalist people in the world believe that their own ancestors created their own cultures in their own lands, ok but we can't write history based on their inclination.

Do you really think an Iranian tribe came here and was responsible for a Germanic genetic profile and culture? Really?

Not Iranian tribes but Germanic tribes, Iran is just a land where different people have lived there, in the ancient times Germanic tribes lived and now different Iranian, Turkic, Arab, ... people live. It never means Germanic culture is the same as Iranian culture or vice versa.

Go fool someone else Cyrus these are 1001 night fairy tales.

I don't want to fool anyone, I just believe before 500 BC Germanic people lived in my country and I'm researching about it.

And it's even worse this sentence 'this original land was even in Iran, is it an insult?!' implies IMO a kind of inferiority complex. In other postings this pops up reverse and is Iran the belly button of the world.

You yourself talked about insult, we are all humankind and our original land was actually in Africa.

I can tell you I don't give a dam if genetic parts of Germans came from Siberia, Swaziland or Chili or whatsoever but I don't like these biased kind of stuff.

What are these biased kind of stuff?!

 

[Cyrus]

spruithean, what is the major difference between what I say and what you believe? I don't think that you want to deny what David Reich and other geneticists say about the original land of Indo-Europeans in present-day Iran, do you believe they migrated from Iran to the north of Europe in 2,000-1,500 BC, not 1,000-500 BC? We know ancient Gutians lived in Iran from at least 25th century BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people so even in your theory it is still possible that the same Gutians migrated to the north of Europe, isn't it?

 

[Northener]

The name is a coincidence. The Germanii he mentions inhabited the region called "Carmania" or Karmania.

The Germanic tribes have no direct genetic connection with people from Karmania.

So you have no hard evidence. The conclusion: wishful thinking and so very heavy biased.

I’m also a historian and I say this is not evidence based history writing. IMO all rubbish.

 

[Cyrus]

The name is a coincidence. The Germanii he mentions inhabited the region called "Carmania" or Karmania.
The Germanic tribes have no direct genetic connection with people from Karmania.
So you have no hard evidence. The conclusion: wishful thinking and so very heavy biased.
I’m also ahistorian and I say this is not evidence based history writing. IMO allrubbish.

Please read my previous post, there is not really a big difference between what I say and what you say.

 

[Northener]

Please read my previous post, there is not really a big difference between what I say and what you say.

There is a huge difference.

I plot genetically close to the early Germanic tribes and to Nordic LNBA.

I don't plot close to the people of Karmenia, it's up to you to show that they plot close to the Germani. But no evidence of that.

Between LNBA and nowadays there is no major shift in Germanic genetics. So no Germani coming in from Persia. They left no traces.

No trace, no story!

This is all in category Aryanism, 'also sprach Zarahustra....' Romantic (or even worse) schwaermerei (to say it in German).