What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?

[Cyrus]

I'm well aware that Armenia is not in the Balkans. Are you aware that Europeans were active in Armenia since the Byzantine Empire? You are aware that Armenians settled in Europe throughout the middle ages for various reasons, yes? Or will this thread always jump to your theory instead of first looking at more recent movements of people?
Do you have evidence for Skjöldr being Skayordi? Besides a loose linguistic argument? Evidence for Urartu being Heorot? Or again, more wishful thinking?

It doesn't talk about historical Armenia but modern one which was part of Sassanid empire, look at also this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4888/

Sweden 2, Armenia 2, Azerbaijan 1, Qatar 1, ...

I don't know why you think Iran and Europe are in two different worlds, an inscription of Darius the Great has been found in Gherla (Armenopolis) in the northwest of Romania, this thing that some people from Iran came to the Central or Northern Europe in 500 BC is not a strange thing.

 

[Cyrus]

About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:

 

[spruithean]

I should really thank you, you helped too much about my theory, the fact is I didn't know anything about genetic relations between people who lived in the west of Iran and Scandinavians, if you look at my first posts in this thread I firstly thought it probably related to haplogroup I! The fact is for many years I thought there are just cultural relation between two lands but I already know many things about genetic relations too, thanks again.

You fail to comprehend the studies that have been linked to you, and what we've been telling post after post.

It doesn't talk about historical Armenia but modern one which was part of Sassanid empire, look at also this one: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF4888/

Sweden 2, Armenia 2, Azerbaijan 1, Qatar 1, ...

I don't know why you think Iran and Europe are in two different worlds, an inscription of Darius the Great has been found in Gherla (Armenopolis) in the northwest of Romania, this thing that some people from Iran came to the Central or Northern Europe in 500 BC is not a strange thing.

A 9100 year old haplogroup tells us absolutely nothing. Most of the downstreams of those are PRIOR to Indo-Europeans. You fail to pay attention to chronology and phylogeny, which then leak over to you not paying attention to the specific phylogeny of ancient samples or their respective chronologies.

We know that the Achaemenid Empire extended into Europe. This doesn't mean any one from Iran then moved to Northern Europe, you make assumptions based on bad interpretations of data. Several people in this thread have provided ample evidence that shows a solid case against your theory and you continue to ignore it.

About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:

More nonsense and more ridiculous assumptions made here. You fail to pay attention to Uralisms from Uralic in Germanic, Celtic loanwords, Latin loanwords, Germanic loanwords (both pre-proto-Germanic and proto-Germanic) into Finnish, as well as Germanic loanwords into Balto-Slavic etc. You continue to ignore archaeological continuity, autosomal continuity in Scandinavia and Northern Germany and the list goes on. You have every right to believe your theory, but the more you ignore everything everyone is sharing with you the more you look like a t-roll.

 

[Cyrus]

You fail to comprehend the studies that have been linked to you, and what we've been telling post after post.
A 9100 year old haplogroup tells us absolutely nothing. Most of the downstreams of those are PRIOR to Indo-Europeans. You fail to pay attention to chronology and phylogeny, which then leak over to you not paying attention to the specific phylogeny of ancient samples or their respective chronologies.
We know that the Achaemenid Empire extended into Europe. This doesn't mean any one from Iran then moved to Northern Europe, you make assumptions based on bad interpretations of data. Several people in this thread have provided ample evidence that shows a solid case against your theory and you continue to ignore it.
More nonsense and more ridiculous assumptions made here. You fail to pay attention to Uralisms from Uralic in Germanic, Celtic loanwords, Latin loanwords, Germanic loanwords (both pre-proto-Germanic and proto-Germanic) into Finnish, as well as Germanic loanwords into Balto-Slavic etc. You continue to ignore archaeological continuity, autosomal continuity in Scandinavia and Northern Germany and the list goes on. You have every right to believe your theory, but the more you ignore everything everyone is sharing with you the more you look like a t-roll.

You yourself know that new genetic studies also support my theory, of course you hope that these studies are proved to be wrong and they say that Germanic haplogroups don't exist in Asia but I know they will disappoint you, in fact you should wait for more genetic studies and several other evidences for Germanic presence in Iran, I believe this is a historical fact which can never be changed.

 

[nornosh]

Why Germanic 'god' relates to Indo-Iranian 'khuda' and Latin 'Deo' to Sanskrit 'Deva', IndoIranian 'Bagh' to Indic 'Baghwan' maybe because they share common ancestor PIE

 

[Ygorcs]

Present-day distribution :

J2 in Germany : 4.5%
J2 in Sweden : 2.5%
J2 in Norway : 0.5%

J1 in Germany : close to 0
J1 in Norway and sweden : 0

Wow... that's surely enough to change the language.

As for Germanic-oriented nationalist claims, from me, in central France???!! It takes some stretch of the imagination, doesn't it?

You are T-ROLLING THIS FORUM. I hope everyone will just give up answering you, and let this ABSURD thread die its natural death.

Exactly. For me the "confession statement" of his has already been said: "I believe θ(th) didn't exist in the north of Europe before the arrival of proto-Germanic language in 500 BC"; and then he tops that with "I believe this is a historical fact which can never be changed."

It's a matter of belief, a dogma, an ideological principle, a personally invested agenda - not a matter of disinterested, unbiased science. And it's particularly funny and also bizarre to see an Iranian man on a crusade to prove that Germanic people are from Iran bashing other people (non-Germanic people, mind you, lol) as "ultra-nationalists" and "racists". Talk about projection.

Honestly I recommend everyone to just stop feeding this bunch of delusional fiction and nonsense.

 

[MOESAN]

About the name of Armenia (Aremani), it should be mentioned that this is just the name of this land in Old Persian after Gutian migration to this land, Armenians have always called themselves Hay and their country Hayastan. The original name was Alman (Alemanni), /l/ didn't exist in Old Persian phonology and l>r was one of the main sound changes in this language. I had talked about this name in ancient Akkadian sources:

I try my proper nail.
the Alemanni tribes name dates since a very later time than your Alman of Armenia, of supposed Gutian origin (which I dont contest specifically here). this name is not mentioned concerning the first known Germanic tribes; it seems it's rather a new name of OUR era signifying "all men" (°all-? mandi? I've not the old form at hand) after kind of fusion of old dispersed or weakened tribes of previous other names; sulemy the same phenomenon as the formation of the Franks name. So a direct link with the Alman of Armenia is to discard.
If you like names forms proximities I can cite a place Tamul in the Baltic region (not precised, I found it in an abstract about Narva culture period), and Tamul waterfalls in Mexico; it opens you new doors to rewrite history, opening a door to Southern India as a 'must'.
Concerning proper names, I made researches about curious surnames of Brittany and I found, for some of them, at te level of look (writing) same surnames in Iberia, or Italy, or the Netherlands, or Finland or Poland or Hungary and so on... until China! It's not proximity, but appearent identity!
And these names, present in these countries since surnames exist, have absolutely no link tying them, they have different etymologies, except a very small number.

 

[Cyrus]

Why Germanic 'god' relates to Indo-Iranian 'khuda' and Latin 'Deo' to Sanskrit 'Deva', IndoIranian 'Bagh' to Indic 'Baghwan' maybe because they share common ancestor PIE

I think you know Persian, as you read about Sanskrit Deva: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=deva

"god, divinity, good spirit" in Hindu religion, 1819, from Sanskrit deva "a god" (as opposed to asuras "wicked spirits"), etymologically "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Greek dios "divine" and Zeus, and Latin deus "god" (Old Latin deivos), from PIE root *dyeu- "to shine," in derivatives "sky, heaven, god."

Div in Persian means "demon", not "god", the important point is that this word never means "shining" in Persian, in fact it is not possible that a word with this meaning is used for demon, the Middle Persian word for "shining" is tewa which is clearly a loanword from proto-Germanic, in Modern Persian that is "Taban" (w>b sound change). https://glosbe.com/fa/en/تابان

As you read in this book: A history of Zoroastrianism: The Early Period By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet (The Gods of Pagan Iran, page 77), the chief god of Iran was Tir/Tyr, it was also the chief god of Armenians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tir_(god), the founder of Parthian empire and some other Parthian and then Armenian kings were Tiridates which means "Given by God (Tir)". Tyr is from proto-Germanic Tiwaz: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tyr Also compare to the name of Gutian king Tirigan.

 

[Cyrus]

I try my proper nail.
the Alemanni tribes name dates since a very later time than your Alman of Armenia, of supposed Gutian origin (which I dont contest specifically here). this name is not mentioned concerning the first known Germanic tribes; it seems it's rather a new name of OUR era signifying "all men" (°all-? mandi? I've not the old form at hand) after kind of fusion of old dispersed or weakened tribes of previous other names; sulemy the same phenomenon as the formation of the Franks name. So a direct link with the Alman of Armenia is to discard.
If you like names forms proximities I can cite a place Tamul in the Baltic region (not precised, I found it in an abstract about Narva culture period), and Tamul waterfalls in Mexico; it opens you new doors to rewrite history, opening a door to Southern India as a 'must'.
Concerning proper names, I made researches about curious surnames of Brittany and I found, for some of them, at te level of look (writing) same surnames in Iberia, or Italy, or the Netherlands, or Finland or Poland or Hungary and so on... until China! It's not proximity, but appearent identity!
And these names, present in these countries since surnames exist, have absolutely no link tying them, they have different etymologies, except a very small number.

It really doesn't matter that there are similar names in modern Germanic lands or not, I say the names of all ancient tribes in the west of Iran such as Guti, Suedi, Alman, Padan, Suebi, ... have Germanic origin, it is certainly possible that we find two similar names in two different lands, but what about 10, 100, 1000, ...? I can list the names of at least 500 place names in the west of Iran which have Germanic origin, most of them also exist in the modern Germanic lands.

 

[Cyrus]

For example search the same name of Lur: https://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=Lur&country=

As you see more than half of them are in Iran, but what are other ones:

Lur, Pakistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (land of Kalash people)
Lur, Sweden, Skåne
Lur, Sweden, Västra Götaland
Lur, Austria, Styria
...

Number of placenames which contain the word Lur:

Iran: 24
Afghanistan: 11
Sweden: 7
Pakistan: 5

 

[Northener]

For example search the same name of Lur: https://www.geonames.org/search.html?q=Lur&country=

As you see more than half of them are in Iran, but what are other ones:

Lur, Pakistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (land of Kalash people)
Lur, Sweden, Skåne
Lur, Sweden, Västra Götaland
Lur, Austria, Styria
...

Number of placenames which contain the word Lur:

Iran: 24
Afghanistan: 11
Sweden: 7
Pakistan: 5

Cyrus, I think there is some common ground in mythology and some distant genetic relationship. That’s all. Tribes that bring direct the Germanic culture to NW Europe from Iran is a fairy tale.

But I guess this remarks are like to bring water to the sea.....believers stay believers.




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[Cyrus]

Would you please explain this haplogroup:

R1a-Y17491 (formed 4900 ybp), a subclade of R1a-Z282 which is itself a subclade of R1a-Z283: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

Subclades:
R-YP5872 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF08495 Sweden > R-YP6536 Sweden
R-YP4858 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF04155PAK Pakistan > R-FGC64133 (formed 3100 ybp) Turkey/Syria

Look at the location of R1a-Z283 in the Migration map of haplogroup R1a:

 

[Northener]

Would you please explain this haplogroup:

R1a-Y17491 (formed 4900 ybp), a subclade of R1a-Z282 which is itself a subclade of R1a-Z283: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y17491/

Subclades:
R-YP5872 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF08495 Sweden > R-YP6536 Sweden
R-YP4858 (formed 4600 ybp) id:YF04155PAK Pakistan > R-FGC64133 (formed 3100 ybp) Turkey/Syria

Look at the location of R1a-Z283 in the Migration map of haplogroup R1a:

Corded Ware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

 

[Cyrus]

Corded Ware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

What is the relation between the western branch of the Corded Ware culture and Pakistan?

 

[Northener]

What is the relation between the western branch of the Corded Ware culture and Pakistan?

Very distant cousins, very different branches. So no direct connection Iran and Germanic.


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[Cyrus]

Very distance cousins, very different branches. So no direct connection Iran and Germanic.


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No, they are from the same branch and closely related to each other.

I think it can solve the puzzle:

Where is it?

 

[Northener]

there....

 

[Northener]

and here....

so you theory is thin air.....

 

[Ygorcs]

Corded Ware.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

"Closely related" with a common origin in 2600 B.C., even before Akkadians had conquered all of Mesopotamia? Is that still "closely related" to you, who claim a Proto-Germanic migration during the Iron Age, after 500 B.C., "only" a little more than 2000 years later? Actually an origin 4600 ybp makes all the sense. CWC had several clades derived from R1a-M417, many of them started to split by them. Sintashta, Srubnaya and, via them, Andronovo are clearly a mix of CWC with local Yamnaya-derived populatons (which had already acquired quite a bit of extra EEF in the preceding centuries, too). CWC, full of subclades of R1a-M417, expanded and later dispersed exactly between 4900-4300 ybp, and one of its descendant populations, which migrated to Central Asian steppe, ended up contributing to the genetic makeup of LBA/IA South-Central Asians and South Asians. What a coincidence, don't you think? All the pieces fit together, unlike your increasingly loose and fanciful hypothesis which needs all sorts of twists and omissions on the genetic evidences to even sound vaguely plausible.

 

[Cyrus]

"Closely related" with a common origin in 2600 B.C., even before Akkadians had conquered all of Mesopotamia? Is that still "closely related" to you, who claim a Proto-Germanic migration during the Iron Age, after 500 B.C., "only" a little more than 2000 years later? Actually an origin 4600 ybp makes all the sense. CWC had several clades derived from R1a-M417, many of them started to split by them. Sintashta, Srubnaya and, via them, Andronovo are clearly a mix of CWC with local Yamnaya-derived populatons (which had already acquired quite a bit of extra EEF in the preceding centuries, too). CWC, full of subclades of R1a-M417, expanded and later dispersed exactly between 4900-4300 ybp, and one of its descendant populations, which migrated to Central Asian steppe, ended up contributing to the genetic makeup of LBA/IA South-Central Asians and South Asians. What a coincidence, don't you think? All the pieces fit together, unlike your increasingly loose and fanciful hypothesis which needs all sorts of twists and omissions on the genetic evidences to even sound vaguely plausible.

If you remember, I talked about R1a-M17 in Germany as the source of the same haplogroup in Iran, we read in Wikipedia:

"David Anthony considers the Yamnaya culture to be the Indo-European Urheimat. According to Haak et al. (2015), a massive migration from the Yamnaya culture northwards took place ca. 2,500 BCE, accounting for 75% of the genetic ancestry of the Corded Ware culture, noting that R1a and R1b may have "spread into Europe from the East after 3,000 BCE". Yet, all their seven Yamnaya samples belonged to the R1b-M269 subclade, but no R1a1a has been found in their Yamnaya samples. This raises the question where the R1a1a in the Corded Ware culture came from, if it was not from the Yamnaya culture.

Semenov and Bulat do argue for such an origin of R1a1a in the Corded ware culture, noting that several publications point to the presence of R1a1 in the Comb Ware culture."

It means R1a came from CWC to Yamnaya, not vice versa, so Europeans migrated to the Caspian steppe and then adopted the Indo-European language, one group of these Europeans continued its way to Iran and created the Germanic culture and then came back to Europe in 500 BC.