Silesian
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What does genetics say about the origin of Germanic people?
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spruithean
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That video does not even dive into the specific subclades within each population. Assuming that all of the R-M269 is Celtic is ridiculous.
spruithean said:
Sometimes I think you actually want to support my theory! Almost all Finnish words that you mentioned are from proto-Germanic (after 500 BC) but those ones that you said are from pre-Proto-Germanic actually show the Germanic migration from the west of Iran to the north of Europe.
For example about proto-Finnic *kapja "hoof", if you remember I had mentioned Arabic xuf "hoof": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/خف#Etymology_2 linguists believe the reconstructed IE word *ḱoph₂?s "hoof" is a loanword from proto-Semitic: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ḱoph₂ós
Proto-Germanic *xufaz seems to be a direct loanword from Semitic but we see irregular sound changes in Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages, both x and f didn't exist in Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic phonologies, in Indo-Iranian x has been palatalized to ć and f has been aspirated to pʰ, so we have Indo-Iranian *ćapʰ?s but we see regular x>k and f>p in Balto-Slavic, so it is *kopyto, proto-Finnic word is clearly from Balto-Slavic.
spruithean
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R1b was a less common haplogroup according to present data so far in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic samples in Europe: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml
The clades of R1b that are associated with IE are found quite early in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (after the upstream R-L754 in Italy) we already see the same thing with I clades, found in prehistoric Europe with eventual spread outward (we even find specific subclades of I2 in the Steppe) as humans began to settle more of Europe once the glacial maximum retreated. The IE associated R1b clades are younger than the L754 individual and they are in abundance in Western Europe, so the spread was more likely East to West (especially when data at this time shows somewhat of a lack of R1b in Neolithic Europe) you cannot assume that modern distribution is the only answer, you have to account for what was going in these periods as Bronze Age migrants arrived, we already have evidence of Yersinia pestis presence in this period coming from steppe populations moving into Europe, and it likely wiped out a significant amount of the pre-Bronze Age population of Europe. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/06/03/1820447116, this can cause a significant number of lineages to die off.
LOL, no.
Pretty sure we covered this several pages back and again, no this is not evidence of a migration from Iran, as usual you consider sound laws as you please with no regard for anything else going on in the language around it. Do you read any of the links we provide that show material cultural continuity? Do you not pay attention to the complete lack of Iranian-like admixture in prehistoric Scandinavia/Northern Europe? Why do you ignore these facts? Why do you ignore the study I've linked that shows the Goths in all likelihood migrated from Southern Scandinavia?
Because you don't pay attention to what I said about mtDNA haplogroup U7.
MOESAN
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Sorry, but you produce the evolution X>k and f>p but almost everytime it's rather the opposite. At least in Germanic (and other languages) this is the rule, and the words with K- or P- are rather loans made before the Germanics devoicing/"spirantizing" mutation (I don't find the correct english word, sorry).
That said the map you provide here is an hypothesis and has no scientific basis as conclusion. Everybody can make beautiful maps checking their own hypothesis.
aside:
here under a traduction of Bernard SERGENT: academic compilation of other works:
"Germanic presents a big amount of lexicon shared with Macro-Baltic, then with Italics and Celtics. For grammar and morphology, the relations are very numerous with Baltic languages (43% according to Kroeber-Chrétien/Adams calcul) despite some very big differences discard it as a member of the same family, and the correspondances of lexicon are for the most with Baltic languahes, not with Slavic languages. Eric Hamp speaks nevertheless of a "North-European group" which unitesGermanic, Baltic-Slavic and Albanese."*...
*gathered into a "Baltic-Balkanic super-family" by some people...
MOESAN
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@Spruithean
All that is very difficult to disentangle;
I think (with my present knowledge) that loanwords from Germanic in Finnic are superstratum; but in Saami Finnic, I red somewhere one substratum was seemingly satemlike what pushed me to imagine it could rather be after contacts with northern IE tribes so Fatyanovo ones ore some other CWClike group; the other substrata was of an unkown family of language.
In Scandinavia, the local Y-R1a post-CWC look as if they had been pushed from South towards North, so in my opinion, not the Germanic launcher.
That said it's true that we can think too that the very widely spred CWC tribes could have spoken at first a vague continuum of not too evolved post-PIE, so think the westernmost ones could have evolved into centum dialects when the easternmost ones evolved into satem diaects; that said (to seem fair play! LOL), I find this last argument a bit convoluted. But we discussed this already in other threads, less weird than this one.
All that is very difficult to disentangle;
I think (with my present knowledge) that loanwords from Germanic in Finnic are superstratum; but in Saami Finnic, I red somewhere one substratum was seemingly satemlike what pushed me to imagine it could rather be after contacts with northern IE tribes so Fatyanovo ones ore some other CWClike group; the other substrata was of an unkown family of language.
In Scandinavia, the local Y-R1a post-CWC look as if they had been pushed from South towards North, so in my opinion, not the Germanic launcher.
That said it's true that we can think too that the very widely spred CWC tribes could have spoken at first a vague continuum of not too evolved post-PIE, so think the westernmost ones could have evolved into centum dialects when the easternmost ones evolved into satem diaects; that said (to seem fair play! LOL), I find this last argument a bit convoluted. But we discussed this already in other threads, less weird than this one.
It certainly depends on phonology, for example in English caviar is pronounced with a k, not x, the same thing can be said about p and f too.
Another interesting word which also shows a migration from Iran is Finnish hylje "earless seal".
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/hylje
From Proto-Finnic *h?lgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *??lke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz. Cognate with Estonian h?ljes.
spruithean
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The lone instance of it in a single female Viking grave? I'm not ignoring it, it is a single sample, you cannot use that as evidence of anything when we already know that a fair number of people from outside of Scandinavia were there in the Viking Age (the Sigtuna paper highlights this). A single case from the medieval period does not say much in regards to the ethnogenesis of Germanic-speaking peoples. They also estimate that U7 originated 30,000 years ago in the Black Sea area.
From the Sigtuna paper:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218308443
We see a similar scenario in Migration period papers where they highlight higher female mobility.
Please, not even once does your link to hylje even connect it to Iran. Countless times in this thread we have shown that there is no Iranian-like admixture in prehistoric Northern European samples, there is no archaeological evidence of such a migration and everything points to your theory being incorrect.
You certainly know I meant "princely burials" in Germany from about 500 BC (Late Hallstatt culture), not just this Viking queen.
spruithean
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A "~30,000 year old" haplogroup that likely originated in the Black Sea area?
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044
To quote the entire abstract:
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044
To quote the entire abstract:
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Northener
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I don't know what's going on here, but this all makes no sense. No plausible story based on what these gentleman put forward.
Reasonable replies from for example Spruithaen are replied with another random straw....without any coherency.
Let me tell you there is no plausible connection between the genetics of the Germans and Iranian or Persian tribes. Fairy tales.
The German genetics are een historical admixture of funnel beaker (Ertebolle/ENF mixture) and highly Steppe influenced Single Grave and Bell Beaker. This al took place from LNBA and beyond on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia. Not that fantastic movement of 'Germanic tribes' rushing in from Iran....yeah sure.
Did you know that the Groningers in the Netherlands are Inca derived? Why? Because the genes of the potatoes in Groningen show a basic resemblance of those in the Andes. So there most be a connection....
But a rational debate seems to be hard.....that's a loss because a good discussion about my ancestry would be nice. But this shows IMO a tendency towards throlling.....
MOESAN
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'caviar cannot be taken as an example for ancient Germanic evolution; it's a rather modern loanword in english, surely from a written source, maybe after a long chain of transmission, so phonologically out of worth; in any case not before the 9th Cy - look at Greek words with ch /kh/ >/X/ pronounced /k/ in French and other languages, or Cy- /ku/ or /kü/ pronounced /Si/ in French - 'caviar' is maybe of Turkish origin or of Iranian origin or...?, with kh- ~/X/ or /H/ according to some writings, but it says nothing about the Germanic (even English) and Iranian links about the 500 BC -
concerning "Proto-Finnic *hülgeh, from Proto-Finno-Ugric *šülke. May be connected with Proto-Germanic *selhaz". what is your Iranian or Near-Eastern language cognate?
it's my last post TO YOU in this thread -
Ygorcs
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Of course there is no evidence about the existence of Celtic and Italic people in Europe before the 1st millennium BC too, in fact we know before 500 BC in Italy the main languages were Etruscan, Camunic, Picenian, Ligurian, Sicanian, Paleo-Sardinian, ... which ere not Indo-European, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, ... people spoke Rhaetian language which is believed to be a Tyrsenian language, not Indo-European, and in the west of Europe the main languages were Vasconic, Aquitanian, Iberian and Tartessian languages. R1b has still the highest frequency among Basques who are not an Indo-European people.
Haha! Who made that map? What's its source? You yourself? Tyrrhenian IS a language family composed of Etruscan + Rhaetian + Lemnian (which by the way is very Etruscan-like, possibly just a dialect of it or a sister language), so what the heck is that "Tyrrhenian language" up there in Northern Europe? What the heck is Lemnian doing all over Greece when it was only ever found in the tiny island of Lemnos in the Iron Age? Ditto for Northern Picene, what is it doing all over the Dinaric Balkans with no evidence at all for its presence except in Eastern Italy? What explains the reach of Tartessian so much northward of its known location in the Iron Age? And what's this "Trojan language" (and the people of Troy might've been Luwian or Phrygian in fact) not just in Northwestern Anatolia, but also in the South Balkans? What on earth is Pictish about if it was probably a Celtic or para-Celtic language? And what's this extent of Paleo-Sardinian and Paleo-Sicilian languages to the Maghrebi coast?
In fact, ALL of those languages depicted in the map are known only in the 1st millennium B.C., and some of them have little or no inscriptions written in them - all of them, with no exception (I don't count Trojan, because it is not attested at all in the linguistic record). So, the evidence for the existence of these non-IE languages is exactly the same there is for the IE languages that you're claiming didn't exist in Europe because... well, because like most languages ever in ancient times they weren't written down (wow what a great evidence, indeed). If IE languages like Italic, Celtic and Germanic did not "exist" before their first attestation in Europe, then for sure those non-IE languages didn't, either (of course that's just a nonsensical argument in the same vein of the ones we have read here from you).
Looks like one of those fictional maps made for stories of imaginary alternative worlds, frankly. Some people just don't know when they should stop for lack of enough evidences or knowledge.
Northener said:I don't know what's going on here, but this all makes no sense. No plausible story based on what these gentleman put forward.
Reasonable replies from for example Spruithaen are replied with another random straw....without any coherency.
Let me tell you there is no plausible connection between the genetics of the Germans and Iranian or Persian tribes. Fairy tales.
The German genetics are een historical admixture of funnel beaker (Ertebolle/ENF mixture) and highly Steppe influenced Single Grave and Bell Beaker. This al took place from LNBA and beyond on the North German Plain and Southern Scandinavia. Not that fantastic movement of 'Germanic tribes' rushing in from Iran....yeah sure.
Did you know that the Groningers in the Netherlands are Inca derived? Why? Because the genes of the potatoes in Groningen show a basic resemblance of those in the Andes. So there most be a connection....
But a rational debate seems to be hard.....that's a loss because a good discussion about my ancestry would be nice. But this shows IMO a tendency towards throlling.....
I don't talk about neolithic or even bronze age but iron age, more exactly Jastorf culture in Denmark and northern Germany, http://www.geocities.ws/reginheim/hisorigins.html "The first Germanic culture: Not much is known about the exact historical origins of the Germanic peoples but most historians agree that the first culture that can officially be called "Germanic" was the Jastorf culture in northern Germany, this culture came into existence around 600BC and was the first northern European culture that used iron."
Danish archaeologists in search of the historical roots of the Danish civilization in Iran: http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jan/1191.html
"A few years ago, a researcher from the Copenhagen Museum, Nadia Haupt, discovered more than one thousand coins and relics that did not belong to the Danish or other Scandinavian cultures, and therefore set to find out more about the historical roots of the Danish civilization.
The ancient items that took the attention of experts included more than one hundred thousand coins that are not part of the Danish history, Viking shipwrecks that Haupt believes their style of construction and the kind of trade they used to undertake differentiate them from those of their ancestors, clothes and accessories used today in some Scandinavian cities and villages, and red and blue colors included in the clothes of the residents under study.
The findings prompted archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts to find out more about their ancestral roots, and where these items have originally come from. The first hypothesis that these items originated from southwestern Europe such as Spain was overruled with more studies.
The next hypothesis focused on the northeastern countries in Europe, or more specifically Russia. Relics found in the excavations of the area have confirmed the existence of trade relationships between Denmark and Russia, but Haupt intends to get to the main roots.
She has followed her leads in Russia and has now come to the Iranian side of the Caspian Sea, hoping to prove that Eastern cultures had influenced the Scandinavian countries, such as Denmark."
Northener
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First of all the Germans were not 'newborn' in the iron age/Jastorf. They didn't fall out of space. The 'original' Germans genetic roots lay in the Bronze Age. So did the Germans of the European migration ages in the early middle ages. And even nowadays my family falls in this specific genetic cluster.
The Vikings later on had many connections they also found a Buddha among the Vikings, that doesn't make them Buddhist or Indian
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/the-helgo-treasure-a-viking-age-buddha/
Northener said:First of all the Germans were not 'newborn' in the iron age/Jastorf. They didn't fall out of space. The 'original' Germans genetic roots lays the Bronze Age. So did the Germans of the European migration ages in the early middle ages. And even nowadays my family falls in this specific genetic cluster.
The Vikings later on had many connections they also found a Buddha among the Vikings, that doesn't make them Buddhist or Indian
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/12/t...ng-age-buddha/
A Buddha certainly doesn't prove anything but if you also find Indian style of construction or Indian style clothes and accessories in Scandinavian cities and villages, and archeologists and anthropology enthusiasts relate them to Scandinavian ancestral roots, then it can be certainly said that Scandinavians had an Indian culture, the same thing can be said about all other peoples and cultures in the world.
If Germanic culture existed in the north of Europe before 500 BC, there should be at least some evidences about it in the Germanic sources, but we see more than 800 years ago Icelandic historian Snorri Sturluson also says about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard "Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there." And from another side we see several evidences which prove Germanic Asgard is the same ancient land of Asagarta (Hellenized as Zagros) in Iran, Snorri also says "Odin is the chief of Asagarth. On the border of Sweden the Great (Suedin in Mesopotamian sources) is a mountain range (Zagros) running from northeast to southwest. South of it are the lands of the Turks (Seljuks at the time of Snorri's writing), where Odin had possessions."
spruithean
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What does Jastorf culture show links with? Oh that's right the Nordic Bronze Age. It developed out of the Nordic Bronze Age and had influences from Hallstatt to the south.
Nadia Haupt was looking at trade links between Vikings and Iran. You can find her blog online if you so wish.
Another link from a different news site: https://en.mehrnews.com/news/10561/Danish-team-seeking-traces-of-Viking-contacts-in-Iranian-museum
Here is Nadia's blog (it is in Danish): https://salamviking.wordpress.com/2010/06/19/jelling-–-med-et-lille-stik-til-marokko-og-iran/
Also context again, besides being Vikings she is looking for the trade links and influences on the development of medieval Scandinavian civilizations, like Denmark from the Viking Age (Medieval) onward.
Please, you certainly know we are talking about what haplogroup and where its original land is.
The Viking World, page 266:
Please? Ha. Read the study I linked, it discusses mt-Hg U And specifically U7. In far greater detail and accuracy than two books written PRIOR to the study.
That's a leap, especially considering the lack of autosomal DNA to corroborate. Also, again the context is a singular Viking Age woman, we know the Vikings were active in both the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. Nadia Haupt investigated that and she isn't the only one who has investigated that, not once do they (the archaeologists, not journalists) say that Scandinavian civilizations come from Iran.
North Sea Archaeologies: A Maritime Biography, 10,000 BC - AD 1500, page 211:
He is describing modern distribution there and again you are ignoring the published study I linked about Haplogroup U and specifically U7. I even quoted the entire abstract. Read the abstract, hell, read the entire study.
For context again: your links are discussing a single Viking Age woman. This does not speak for the ethnogenesis of Germanic, the fact that you ignore pre-Iron Age data from Europe in regards to Northern Europe and the development of Germanic speaking areas screams that you are "biased".
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