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What is controversial about it? As you read about haplogroup R1a: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a "A large, 2014 study by Peter A. Underhill et al., using 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluded that there was compelling evidence that "the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran."
As you see it show a direct migration from Iran to Scandinavia, before talking about other things, first you should show me a new study which fundamentally rejects Underhill's theory by of course using valid evidences. As I said in another thread we have also valid genetic evidences that haplogroup R1a-M17 existed in different parts of Iran from at least 6,000 years ago and it has still the highest frequency in this country.
As I see almost all researches in the recent years say the same thing about R1a, for example Dr. Csaba Barnabas Horvath says "Present day microsatellite variance would suggest the origin of European R1a somewhere around present day Turkey and Iran. This, according to its’ present distribution in Europe, with higher microsatellite variance in Central Europe than in Eastern Europe or Central Asia, would clearly suggest a route through Anatolia and the Balkans."
The Celtic loans are found in Norse as well. That's why continuity doesn't work, imho. There must have been massive language replacement by a group that had contacts with the Celts. The Jastorf model explains this better.
Could you meet in the middle regarding the origin of Germanic peoples I mean not Scandinavia not Luristan but maybe Northern Caucasia(Pontic Steppe). The Akkadian vocabulary too could have entered Proto Germanic language by Semitic peoples of Caucasus in bronze age not directly by the Akkadian people.
I think there should be a map for R1a-M17, I created it:
There are some abstract ideas online which try to tie Haplogroup I (only because of the common root of HG IJ for both I and J haplogroups) to the introduction of an Afroasiatic language in the area... but we have no evidence for the languages of which the people who first entered Europe spoke.
To expand on your quote from that paper by Dr. Horvath:
"The problem is the hitherto absence of R1a even in samples from prehistoric cultures where data is relatively abundant, and where its’ present day microsatellite variance would suggest its’ origins. Present day microsatellite variance would suggest the origin of European R1a somewhere around present day Turkey and Iran.114 This, according to its’ present distribution in Europe, with higher microsatellite variance in Central Europe than in Eastern Europe or Central Asia, would clearly suggest a route through Anatolia and the Balkans. However among ancient YNDA [sic] data gained from 26 samples of the Anatolian Neolithic, R1a (as well as R1b) is entirely absent,115 and it is also absent from Neolithic cultures ofthe Balkans, such as the Stračevo,116 Vinča,117 and Lengyel118119 cultures."
Yes indeed, only J1 belonged to Semitic languages not J2, in areas where J2 is prominent we see languages which don't belong to Afro Asiatic language family like Sumerian, Hurrian, Gutian, Kassite, Georgian language family... so on, So pre IE europe grouped certainly with Basque and other unknown european languages.
It actually shows this migration certainly didn't happen in the Neolithic age, of course it is possible that they were some migrations from Iran to the northern lands through the Caucasus and Central Asia in the old times but the Germanic migration dates back to the bronze age. What is the oldest Germanic R1a (L664)?
I should add the following that the R1a-M420* (asterisk meaning that these are isolated and they do not test positive for the downstream SNPs that are widespread) that have been found in Iran and the Caucasus cannot be ancestral to the ancient East European R1a. R-M420* are early offshoots of the more basal lineage of M420 and they are on an entirely different branch than the Z93 branch. Z93 is downstream of Z645 which is downstream of M417. These branches have already been found in Yamnaya-esque LN/BA Eastern European locations through analyses of ancient samples, it's impossible for these Yamnaya-esque LN/BA EE individuals to have been recent migrants as they are a mixture of local forager people + ancient Euro farmer people, this was established through DNA testing and analysis of the the autosomal DNA. Another thing to point out is that all ancient R1a-Z93 samples show Eastern European foraging ancestry, again all evidence shows that Z93 is from the steppe. Besides Z93 has a lot of variance and structure to its lineages in South Asia, this is not a local feature, it's from the steppes. There are suggestions that this could mean that a Kazakh steppe (Kazakh not meaning ethnicity, but geography) population featured high levels of Z93 (including diversity) and perhaps several waves made their way into South Asia.
Now to visualize the R1a tree better:
https://yfull.com/tree/R1a/
Here we see that R-M420* (R1a* in this tree) is on an entirely different very early branch from all others that descend from the basal M420 lineage.
And again, Ancient Y-DNA far outweighs modern Y-DNA. Populations can mix and certain lineages eventually become dominant, often times an ethnic group survives while another goes extinct. A prime example is that of ancient Europe prior to Bronze Age. We see old lineages in Europe that get replaced by R1b clades and others. This can be from a violent process, genetic drift, etc.
M417 is downstream of M198 (which is essentially equivalent to M17, meaning they define the same subclade). M198/M17 is a descending branch of R-M459, which can also be referred to as R-SRY1532.2 among other names. R-M459 is a descending branch of R-M420. R-M420 is the basal R1a haplogroup that formed 22,800 ybp and diversified roughly 18,000 ybp.
So from the top down:
R1a (M420) formed 22,800 YBP, TMRCA 18,000 YBP
- R1a-M420*
- R-YP4141
- R-M459- R-M459*- R-YP1272
- R-M198/M17- R-M198*- R-YP1051- R-M417
So what we see above here is that R-M420 branches off into three separate branches, these branches are R-M420* (the isolated early offshoot that has been found in the North Caucasus and Iran populations), a second branch of R-M420 (not to be confused with M420*) is R-YP4141 and a third branch of R-M420 is R-M459. R-M459 branches off into three separate branches, R-M459*, R-YP1272 and R-M198. R-M198 (M17 is in this defining SNP "pack") is the upstream mutation that leads to the following branches of R-M198* (early off shoot, not the same as M198 or later branches), R-YP1051 and R-M417.
What I was referring to is that there is a very large difference between R-M420* (basal early off shoot) and R-M417, they are separated by several thousand years. So the M420* clades that we find in Iran and N. Caucasus aren't the ancestral forms of R-M417 because that is not possible as they are on separate branches of the tree, they share a common ancestor, but M417 is not descended from M420*, but both M417 and M420* are descended from M420.
spruithean said:You have confused what I mean by "isolated" in this sense. I'm referring to R-M420* which is an independent branch of R-M420, it is not the same as other branches of R-M420 because it is negative for defining mutations that define other clades, so it is marked R-M420*. I'm not referring to the country of Iran itself. Don't jump to conclusions.
I'm not trying to change history, you're the one who claimed the Germanic people came from Iran, you're the one who claims various Germanic people are actually Scythians. You are the same person who posted loose linguistic similarities as evidence that Germanic was a branch of Indo-Iranian.
Obviously we are going to agree to disagree, and this thread and others like it have gone absolutely nowhere, so do what you wish believe what you want. Maybe publish your ideas for peer review by the same community that has invested a great deal of work into these same studies.
When problems couldn't be solved we often look at the upper stages of hgs so if we do this then we see R existed in Ma'alta culture 25,000 BC HG P, Q too were present in Siberia then in ice age they have to get out of there so the question is which region they get to, from which we see todays lineages?
History is a science, not a divine revelation that you think no one should change it, it is not me who says R1a diversification occured in Iran (read what professional genealogists, like Dr. Peter Underhill, say), it is not me who talks about numerous Akkadian words in proto-Germanic (read what lingists, like German linguist Dr. Theo Vennemann, say), it is not me who talks about archaeological relations between Iran and Scandinavia (read what archaeologists, like Swedish archaeologist Dr. Ture J. Arne, say), ...
I didn't create this map of R1a migration:
I'm just trying to change your false belief about the origin of Germanic people.
I'm not going to go back over what Ygorcs, myself and others have already laid out in terms of genetics because again, the data is out there from studies of ancient DNA and from current population geneticists work that is more current than the study you keep as your cornerstone in this rapidly moving field. I also don't feel I need to go back over any of this. You can find all the data you need in several studies that have come out after Underhill.
What do you mean by ancient DNA? Do you belieave that several million people with haplogroup R1a-M17 migrated to Iran in the modern times?! When? From which land?! It seems you just don't want to believe that this hapligroup originated in Iran. Some ancient skeletons which date back to at least 6,000 years ago have been found at Tape Silak in the centre of Iran, Iranian genealogists say that they have found R1a-M17 in their DNA, why we shouldn't believe it?
My sources about ancient R1a-M17 are just in Persian, I mentioned one of them in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38596-Wrong-Migration-map-of-haplogroup-R1a-in-Eupedia!What I mean by ancient DNA is samples from specific periods of archaeology that show where early clades of R1a (and R1b) have been found, however this is not restricted to uni-parental markers (Y-DNA & mtDNA), this also includes autosomal DNA, which as of right now shows that people in the Yamnaya culture who have had their DNA sequenced show a very specific mixture of Eastern European foragers, European farmers and Caucasus farmers. It's not that I wouldn't want or don't want to believe the haplogroup originated Iran, and I'm open to it, however conflating R1a originating in the Iranian plateau or in the general vicinity with the origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans is where I think there may be a disconnect here between us, R1a thousands of years before the cultures that are suspected to have given rise to the Indo-European speakers. When we use all the genetic data available from the large amount of samples that have been acquired in the steppes and elsewhere we can paint a decent picture that points to the PIE homeland being in the Pontic-Steppe, does this mean that the PIE people didn't descend from certain groups that originated elsewhere? No, it just means that the most likely PIE homeland is in the steppes, they may partially descend from a group of people who came from elsewhere, perhaps Caucasus or Iran, but this all very early and far removed from the spread of the Indo-European speaking people.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5048219/
The haplogroups of R1a that are associated with European groups and Indo-Iranian groups originated quite a bit after the estimated formation date of R1a-M420. The earliest ancient samples of those have been found in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (with the exception of an ancient DNA outlier in Mongolia)
Please provide the published work or at least your source for the ancient R-M17 in Tepe Sialk (and better yet provide the source that gives a link to the appropriate BAM file) I would very much like to see it
As you see it show a direct migration from Iran to Scandinavia, before talking about other things, first you should show me a new study which fundamentally rejects Underhill's theory by of course using valid evidences.
Is it true that the oldest samples of R1a-M17 have been found in Germany? Is it possible that they were actually the Germanic people who migrated to Iran in the 3rd millennium BC?
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