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View Poll Results: What YDna carriers, were Seima Turbino culture

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  • They were N3a B211

    4 50.00%
  • they were R1a -Z93

    2 25.00%
  • they were other Ydna hg

    2 25.00%
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Thread: Seima Turbino Ydna discussion and poll

  1. #26
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    hm

    Interesting,

    So the Questions now are,


    Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
    How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

    and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
    How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    hm

    Interesting,

    So the Questions now are,


    Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
    How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

    and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
    How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,
    tracing metals?

    Anyway, Afanasievo with 2 Q1a(not outlier) couldn't be from yamna. The afanasievo doesn't have whg and GAC , which yamna samples have. Now 3 options are left regarding the origin of afanasievo.

    OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.



    And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph (post 10)

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.

    And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph (post 10)
    a finish scholar explained seima turbino phenomenon as a ST network, but looks like he did not know who the altai people were at that time. ST and its relative culture reached china where their cruelty appeared. And this kind of brutal culture continued in east asia:

    abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

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    chromosomes from a collection of 6,521 samples from 56 populations. The more southerly distributed sub-clade N4 emerged before N2a1 and N3, found mostly in the north, but the latter two display more elaborate branching patterns, indicative of regional contrasts in recent expansions. In particular, a number of prominent and well-defined clades with common N3a3’6 ancestry occur in regionally dissimilar northern Eurasian populations, indicating almost simultaneous regional diversification and expansion within the last 5,000 years. This patrilineal genetic affinity is decoupled from the associated higher degree of language diversity.

    https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S...297(16)30160-4

  5. #30
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    seima -turbino

    compare two images:
    first , Taiwan ,East China (畀南遗址,about 5,300 --2,300BP)
    second: Seima Turbino Attachment 11113Attachment 11114
    来自东亚的7300年前的玉人.JPGseima turbino bronze figure.JPG
    Last edited by xiaodragon; 30-05-19 at 01:08. Reason: picture is not uploaded properly

  6. #31
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    @xiao

    your attachment is invalid,

    plz reset and replace.

  7. #32
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    turbino figurine

    got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑南遗址存在 年代大约是距今5,300至2,300年前,其中 又以距今3,500至2300年前最为兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。
    Last edited by xiaodragon; 30-05-19 at 01:06. Reason: dating of the site

  8. #33
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    << Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

    << N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
    yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

    I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
    and a link

    link
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6301604#bbib49

    hosting a part, (no rights I own)

    << Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>
    << N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

    the population size started to grow right at the 7,500 year time from Siberia, I think it has something to do with the steady development of agriculture in east end of the Eurasia.
    N系人口增长的曲线图.JPG

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaodragon View Post
    got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑南遗址存在 年代大约是距今5,300至2,300年前,其中 又以距今3,500至2300年前最为兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。
    Can you give us more information or link related with the site?

    Seima turbino culture reached erlitou culture( so called Xia dynasty) and far to southeast 2,000bc. Moreover their knives were found in shimao step pyramid in north china:

    Figure 4. Drawing of three single-edged knives: a) of the Elunio culture ( one of seima turbino culture), 2000–1800 BC, Russian Altai, length around 220mm; b) from Shimao, 2000–1800 BC, length around 100mm:c) Erlitou, 1700–1600 BC, length around 255mm (drawing by John Rawson).

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...5F/core-reader







    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...64/core-reader[/QUOTE]

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
    Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
    I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
    It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?
    Are those all related with celtic people?

    I think seima turbino culture surely entered south India with altai culture like pyramid/ snake culture/ maybe mayan yoga/ may okunevo sunhead and thunderbolt creator concept/ maybe third eye culture of okunevo, of which petroglyphs were found near IVC according Karl Zettmar. Moreover the culture reached to china bronze where PIE were found: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....glyph&p=572911 (post 17)



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    breaking metals and handling ideas about bronze age hoards from western iberia also. who brought that?



    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ions_in_Pre_an

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Did seima turbino culture land on British isles? Who brought it over there?
    Is it possible that british people started to speak IE since then?





    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...efacts-3407818


  12. #37
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    ^
    Does somebody know how the following logo to be related with celtic culture?





    china bronze around 1,100bc:



    http://english.jinshasitemuseum.com/Treasure

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    ^
    Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

    seima turbino celts

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^
    Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

    seima turbino celts
    t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Johen
    Grigoryev wrote the following:
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domestic
    animals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]

    Ancient scholars spoke of possible influences from Siberia and even China upon La Tène; and of strong Scythian technics influences upon the same La Tène; but it's very later than the 16th/15th Centuries BC. But cultural or technical input is not by force an ethnic one. That said the 15th Cy could correspond to the Tumuli culture of Bavaria and Central Europe which is seen as Celtic or Italo-Celtic by a lot of people; Personally I think proto-Celts are older than Tumuli, and linked to Y-R1b-P312. It would not be the first time that some foreign newcomers integrated and even dominated other culture, forming the elite with new artefacts, despite forming only a minority concerning number and loosing its proper language and demic input after some later generations - the mysterious "Illyrians" did maybe the geographical link between Celto-Italics and Steppes of the time? By instance, the "Celtic" Hallstatt elite of Wurttemberg/Bavaria showed 1/4 of physically newcomers of a mix with evident "proto-europoid" types input, maybe not too different from some 'corded' types, close to other newcomers of the same period in High-Austria, Low-Austria, Croatia, Slavonia, Hungary and Silesia; Illyrians are supposed to have cut off Celts and Italics according to some people? Or others ???
    among Celts their demic input seems having merely disappeared in La Tène; maybe not their imports? There is no link to the Seyma-Turbino question but it shows demic/ethnic input can be very lighter than the cultural one. People loan and adapt. Celts were very smart at this sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -
    So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.

    greek chisel:

    https://sites.duke.edu/nashervirtue/...carving-tools/

    Considering B:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ions_in_Pre_an

    The copper hoard people in india also had chisel shape 5, torcs shape 8 artifacts.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Hoard_Culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Johen
    Grigoryev wrote the following:
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domestic
    animals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]

    I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.
    I agree,we don't have any proof. Only more or less reasonable speculations. That said, I copied this extract of Grigoryev, but I'm not persuaded of his accuracy here!
    According to the few and little I red and my proper approximations it seems to me PIE preceded the MB and LB times, and was rather at the articulation of MLN and EBA. And I cannot put all these cultures on the same "plan" chronologically -
    &: just for the fun (I beg the pardon of all forumers here), did you know the French orteil ('toe') is a deformation of arteil from latin articulus ?(look "articulation"!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.
    I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
    NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
    I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
    Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).

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    From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:


    To china:

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...64/core-reader

    Seima turbino's maximum brutality and tin weapon supremacy, which reminds me of mongol. They also seems to establish their empire from china bronze to europe like mongol.

    There is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of Central Europe by the Seima-Turbino peoples. On Bronze Age settlements in Saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. Unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [Grimm, 1997]. In particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in Slovakia, on settlements of the Veterov, Madjarovce and Otomani cultures.They are known on Unětice settlements very rarely.Often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. Sometimes there are pieces of skull. A cer-emonial mask found on the Nitriansky Hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [Furmanek, Jakab, 1997]. It should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of Seima-Turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. The connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from South-WesternPoland, where, at the end of phase Br A2, the NowaGerekwia Group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in Slovakia. At this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.Very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. It was uncharacter-istic of Unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom Trzciniec culture.
    Essential changes in metalworking occurred inthe Middle Bronze Age [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p.207], of which the appearance of arrowheads look-ing back to Seima-Turbino forms is of most interestto us. They have a cast elongated round socket, awide long blade, and a round or rhombic socket-shank. On the socket there are eyes for attachment(Fig. 78.3,4). Some sockets are ornamented withtriangles or zigzags which correspond closely toSeima tradition [Ehrenberg, 1977]. Middle BronzeAge hoards also contain celts with a side eye [Farley,1979]. In addition to objects linked with Seima-Turbino metalworking, metal of Central Europeanorigin occurs in the Wessex complexes, in particu-lar, pins of Unětician types [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p. 227].
    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002
    Last edited by johen; 09-06-19 at 21:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
    NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
    I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
    Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).
    [ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica according to the testimony of Caesar called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae and Aquitani), and Galli in Latin.[2] As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

    Do you know what the celtae means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^
    Does somebody know how the following logo to be related with celtic culture?





    china bronze around 1,100bc:



    http://english.jinshasitemuseum.com/Treasure
    a triskelion and torc of Gaul:




    copper hoard india torc shape 8 :

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    [ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica according to the testimony of Caesar called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae and Aquitani), and Galli in Latin.[2] As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

    Do you know what the celtae means?
    Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.

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    The Cina symbol and other symbols of close shape (some turning on the opposite direction) seems having been widely spred, as the "swastika' so appreciated by Nazis. I don't know the value we can give to this kind of ressemblances of designs... Fashions were already existing and we cannot always said the depth of their links with ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.
    Do you know the origin of the coat of arms of France? Is it from Gaul?
    it
    I think eagle means sky, and sky is Zeus. Thus the emblem means like a zeus with a thunderbolt.


    "English: Imperial Coat of Arms of the French First Empire(1804-1815), under Napoleon Bonaparte. The Arms depicts a shield with a golden eagle in front of a blue background, within its talons clutching a thunderbolt."

    it is same as the emblem of mexico. A snake can be replaced by a thunderbolt.


    see also mycenaean aka zeus burial and scythian enblem.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....troglyph/page2 (post 16)

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