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Thread: Ancient Origins

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient Origins



    Here's mine

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    Ancient Origins

    Stuttgart, Loschbour, La Brana 1, Motala, Ötzi, Linear Pottery Culture, Corded Ware, Yamnaya (Steppe).




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    They should really update their ancient origins calculator with all the new samples that are confirmed. It would definitely add more layers to it, but that is probably asking too much from FTDNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    They should really update their ancient origins calculator with all the new samples that are confirmed. It would definitely add more layers to it, but that is probably asking too much from FTDNA.
    Thanks, ... you’re right.

    I decided to let MTA go too, because of the multiple negative comments about it.

    ... yep!
    Last edited by Salento; 20-05-19 at 03:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thanks, ... you’re right.

    I decided to let MTA go too, because of the multiple negative comments about it.

    ... yep!
    I do not like of this application. It's more than known that many Iberians have 5 ~ 9% of ancestrality from North Africa, which FTDNA classify as Middle Eastern. This is not good for those Iberians that have some north african ancestrality (of course, not all have, mainly in northeast) or people of other parts of world with some non european ancestrality. Too bad.








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    @Duarte

    As paying customers of these products, our expectations are rarely met.

    We’re aware of the limitations, and unrealistic demands.

    I guess ..... it’s a work-in-progress ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Here's mine


    I think it looks kind of similar to the results I get for the old Geneplaza K12 Ancient DNA calculator. It has it almost exactly the same for "Steppe Cultures", and "Metal age invaders". Also, perhaps the WHG in the farmer samples used in the "Ancient Farmer" samples, is un-subsumed in FTDNA. Which could be counted towards the 6.2% WHG admixture I get under "Western European, and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers".

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    I think it looks kind of similar to the results I get for the old Geneplaza K12 Ancient DNA calculator. It has it almost exactly the same for "Steppe Cultures", and "Metal age invaders". Also, perhaps the WHG in the farmer samples used in the "Ancient Farmer" samples, is un-subsumed in FTDNA. Which could be counted towards the 6.2% WHG admixture I get under "Western European, and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers".
    Jovialis, it must be a coincidence. If my memory serves, FTDNA must consider Metal Age Invaders as West Asians (Iran Neo? CHG?) mainly, which probably help to explain the low % Iberians generally get. Reason why South Italians tend to score higher Metal Age % in this calculator, comparatively to North Italians. For example, I get 16% of Metal invaders, 56% of farmer and 28% Hunter-Gatherer, while Sile got 16, 54 and 30, respectively. My parents haven't tested at FTDNA, but I assume they would get even lower Metal, but higher WHG. Especially my mother, I guess; possibly lower Metal than me and higher WHG than Sile.
    It seems there were people in Afghanistan getting 60% of Metal Age Invaders in this calculator, so it must be pretty different from GenePlaza.

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    Thanks for the insight!

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    My son also tested at FTDNA. He's just 75% North Italian, and the other part is mainly Iberian, so he gets even less Metal than me:
    12% Metal
    58% Farmer
    30% WHG

    I wonder how much Metal % a Basque would get, since they usually have very, very low West Asian admix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Jovialis, it must be a coincidence. If my memory serves, FTDNA must consider Metal Age Invaders as West Asians (Iran Neo? CHG?) mainly, which probably help to explain the low % Iberians generally get. Reason why South Italians tend to score higher Metal Age % in this calculator, comparatively to North Italians. For example, I get 16% of Metal invaders, 56% of farmer and 28% Hunter-Gatherer, while Sile got 16, 54 and 30, respectively. My parents haven't tested at FTDNA, but I assume they would get even lower Metal, but higher WHG. Especially my mother, I guess; possibly lower Metal than me and higher WHG than Sile.
    It seems there were people in Afghanistan getting 60% of Metal Age Invaders in this calculator, so it must be pretty different from GenePlaza.
    I agree. My own FTDNA results seem to confirm your assumption :

    Farmer : 52
    WHG : 39
    Metal : 9

    9% is about the Southwest Asian/CHG I get on most calculators.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I agree. My own FTDNA results seem to confirm your assumption :
    Farmer : 52
    WHG : 39
    Metal : 9
    9% is about the Southwest Asian/CHG I get on most calculators.
    Here you have some more references:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ancientOrigins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Here you have some more references:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ancientOrigins
    Very useful. Thanks.

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    I just realized that the 17% metal age invader plus the 60% farmer, is comparable to the 77% ancient farmer score on geneplaza. The K12 calculator included CHG with the farmers.

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    Also wondering :

    - Apparently FTDNA isolated the CHG share out of the overall Steppe ancestry mix, and merged it with the CHG we inherited via the "southern route".

    - Our levels of WHG are rather high, which doesn't seem to fit in well with the percentages of WHG which survived in Neolithic farmer pops, even if we take into account the WHG "resurgence".

    - Maybe these high WHG scores include part of the "WHG-compatible" genes found in Steppe genomes (?).

    - If such is the case, what became of the EHG/ANE element? Negliglible in western Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    I do not like of this application. It's more than known that many Iberians have 5 ~ 9% of ancestrality from North Africa, which FTDNA classify as Middle Eastern. This is not good for those Iberians that have some north african ancestrality (of course, not all have, mainly in northeast) or people of other parts of world with some non european ancestrality. Too bad.










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    It seems confusing. This is my father's.origins.jpg

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    I don't know if it makes any difference:

    The results I posted are not FTDNA original, ... are from a Raw-Data upload.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Also wondering :
    - Apparently FTDNA isolated the CHG share out of the overall Steppe ancestry mix, and merged it with the CHG we inherited via the "southern route".
    - Our levels of WHG are rather high, which doesn't seem to fit in well with the percentages of WHG which survived in Neolithic farmer pops, even if we take into account the WHG "resurgence".
    - Maybe these high WHG scores include part of the "WHG-compatible" genes found in Steppe genomes (?).
    - If such is the case, what became of the EHG/ANE element? Negliglible in western Europe?
    Well, not sure, but I presume the EHG is there as WHG, yeah, and the Iran Neo + CHG possibly as Metal Age Invaders? ANE is older, and it's associated to both EHG and CHG, I guess. Anyway, it's just odd. Not exactly coherent. I mean, they're perhaps considering Iran Neo as the main component of Indo-Europeans, while in the competitor theory it's Steppe ancestry. No problem. I respect both as possible scenarios. What I think it's odd is that they supposedly use as genetic reference Iran Neo/CHG and as cultural references Corded Ware and Yamnaya, if I read right the image Duarte posted. That's what doesn't seem to make sense. These two types of reference don't fit each other.
    Last edited by Regio X; 21-05-19 at 02:56.

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    Here my results.
    The same as Salento: not FTDNA original, but from a Raw-Data (23andMe) upload



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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Well, not sure, but I presume the EHG is there as WHG, yeah, and the Iran Neo + CHG possibly as Metal Age Invaders? ANE is older, and it's associated to both EHG and CHG, I guess. Anyway, it's just odd. Not exactly coherent. I mean, they're perhaps considering Iran Neo as the main component of Indo-Europeans, while in the competitor theory it's Steppe ancestry. No problem. I respect both as possible scenarios. What I think it's odd is that they supposedly use as genetic reference Iran Neo/CHG and as cultural references Corded Ware and Yamnaya, if I read right the image Duarte posted. That's what doesn't seem to make sense. These two types of reference don't fit each other.
    Hello Regio X
    If you compare the values presented to southern Europeans not Iberians (for example, Italians, Greeks, Albanians) by the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" with the values presented by the GEDmatch Eurogenes HGvF calculator, you will conclude that the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" values presented to "Metal Age Invader" are inflated by the values of "Anatolian Farmer", and the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" values presented to "Farmer" are inflated by the values of the "Middle Eastern Herder". Check it.
    Hugs.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hello Regio X
    If you compare the values presented to southern Europeans not Iberians (for example, Italians, Greeks, Albanians) by the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" with the values presented by the GEDmatch Eurogenes HGvF calculator, you will conclude that the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" values presented to "Metal Age Invader" are inflated by the values of "Anatolian Farmer", and the "FTDNA MyAncientEuropeanOrigins" values presented to "Farmer" are inflated by the values of the "Middle Eastern Herder". Check it.
    Hugs.
    Duarte, that seems an old calculator, and I'm not sure it helps to explain well what FTDNA is doing after all.
    As per the image posted by Stuvanè, FTDNA apparently considers the route started in the Caucasus. What a mess! :) Again, what are they using as reference? Neo/Chalco Iran + CHG (including the CHG part of the Yamnaya and/or Corded Ware ancestry)? Pure CHG wouldn't explain that high amount of Metal Age Invaders in some Afghan and North Indian testees, I guess, while only Neo-Chalco Iran wouldn't explain some amounts in Europeans, like mine, as per calculators like GenePlaza K12, for example. (GenePlaza, btw, includes other cultures as Steppe, whereas FTDNA uses as reference just Yamnaya and Corded Ware, apparently.)
    But not sure what reference ancient samples exactly FTDNA is using, which would matter.
    Well, Maciamo talks on 15% to 25% of CHG in Yamnaya, mentioning Allentoft and Haak. The number must be higher though. Lazaridis would have talked on ~40% of Chalco Iran in Yamnaya (?), but it turned out it's not in fact a likely source. Anyway, Corded Ware would be something abt. 70% Yamnaya(-like), while modern North Europeans would have between 38 and 50%.

    So, they're possibly considering Neo-Chalco Iran + CHG as the main reference for Proto-IEs? If so, firstly, they should decide between the two components, I guess. And if they think, say, Chalco Iran is the main component of proto-IEs, ok, but as I said... It doesn't seem to fit with the route and cultures proposed.

    Conclusion: I'm affraid it's not a well done tool, never mind the hypothesis we believe makes more sense.

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    Family Tree DNA - My Origins



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    My results

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    24% Hunter-Gatherer


    21% non-European

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