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Thread: The enigma of the Celtic tomb

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    The enigma of the Celtic tomb



    In 2014, on the outskirts of the French city of Troyes, a group of archaeologists discovered the impressive tomb of the "Prince of Lavau": Who was this dignitary to deserve such a great burial?

    https://www.arte.tv/es/videos/066316...GCm7a9xGgaXN4A

    (Video in French with subtitles in Spanish)

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    Thanks for sharing!

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    ^^
    You're welcome, we're here to serve.

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    "Each of four large rings on the lip of the cauldron encircles the head of the Greek god of all water (later of rivers), Achelous. " Troyes is SE of Paris. Hercules fought Achelous snake-man and took his bull-horn.

    "Ἀχελώїoς is possibly pre-Greek . Aχ- from Akkadian aḫu "bank of the river", or aḫû "seashore". -ελώἴος from Akkadian illu "watercourse" or "water of the river invading land", and elu and ilu "deity" ."

    It's interesting that Celts chose Achelous , not Hercules, as the cauldron god. Akkad-Babylon was the source for horned snakes. Zeus fought Typhon snake-man from south Asia Minor and threw him with Echidna snake-woman into Mt Etna volcano. Greeks said Echidna was mother of Keltos the first Celt king.

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    It's hard to say why, maybe they bought that model because there was not another one. Stories of religion bore me a lot.

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    "Who was this dignitary to deserve such a great burial?"
    He was Alphonse Pierre Gielaur d'Montgomery-Rommel who made the famed Lavau fruit cake in his cauldron for his terrorist atheist republicans and exported container loads to the Greeks . He was runner-up in the east France chess league and designed really neat lace-work.

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    He must be a prince. It must have been similar to a state funeral and they would come from other territories to the funeral and surely they had to exhibit an impressive trousseau. Perhaps at that time other slogans began to be born that the pure religious and the ostentation and demonstration of power began to impose on the religion to which they would begin to use within the power system.

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    Troyes is between the Seine and Rhone rivers for cargo such as tin from Cornwall. Probably that's why he chose Achelous god of rivers. Until they find a tomb of a rich high priest then it looks like the river of gold flowed to the prince .

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    Most of the prestige artefacts found in those 6th-century BC graves were presents given by traveler-traders to local lords. Those gifts were a way for merchants to get permission to convey goods across the area. The most impressive and precious artefacts found had been made either in Etruscan Italy, or in Magna Graecia/Greece. Which explains why the gods featured were not local.

    Lavau and Vix, where the richest treasures have been found, are located close to the place where the river Seine ceased to be navigable. So the most likely explanation is that local lords imposed a sort of toll on southern merchants (maybe Greeks from Massilia/Marseilles, or Etruscans) on their way to and from the British Isles, especially Cornwall, where tin was abundant.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkleogist View Post
    Troyes is between the Seine and Rhone rivers for cargo such as tin from Cornwall. Probably that's why he chose Achelous god of rivers. Until they find a tomb of a rich high priest then it looks like the river of gold flowed to the prince .
    It was a piece made far away. They must have purchased it for the funeral in a hurry, they would not have had time to make an order that would take months to arrive. I think they had to buy the most luxurious and expensive piece that had the peddler at that time and agreed that it was that or even the family had already had the piece for a long time or someone contributed, I do not think it would give time to make an order those characteristics for reasons of time.

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    "Within the cauldron lay an impressive Attic Greek ceramic jug for pouring wine... Scientists think a Celtic artist may have added more details to the jug. "

    Why would these things have to be bought at the time of his death? What meaning would there be in a cauldron which he had never seen or used? The Celtic artist would need time to add "details to the jug". Achelous is a horned snake and there are examples of that from across France, Spain and Britain.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=ache...M7P2zdVDA5FTM:

    It would be in Greek and "Lavau" interests to hold the Seine-Rhone land route . Greek culture evidently had a strong base in Lavau. The horn of Achelous became the cornucopia "horn of plenty" and this prince had plenty.

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    The piece had to acquire it for another purpose and long before the death of the subject, perhaps it was intended as a wedding dowry and finally it happened that the boyfriend died and the piece became a mortuary offering.

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    Yes the wife may have used the cauldron for boiling his clothes on Mondays, then chucked it into his grave.

    It seems that peaceful Greek influence was accepted in France where Greeks were not dominating Gauls


    "From the 6th to the 2nd century BC, relations between the Greek colony of Marseilles and the nearby indigenous societies were fraught with conflict.
    Ancient texts repeatedly allude to the danger and military pressure imposed by the indigenous community on the Greek city, its surrounding territories and its coastal commercial interests. We can thus imagine the force and longevity of the cultural oppositions that divided these regional partners. Even if the expression of these confrontations reached one of its heights with the establishment of the Entremont agglomeration in the 2nd century BC, we cannot limit the relations between Greeks and Gauls to the image of conflicts alone as recounted by historical sources.

    This violence, which remained limited to the region surrounding Greek Marseilles and its coastal extensions, resulted from specific causes associated with this proximity. The importance of the Phocaean milieu, and the long history of political and economic pressure imposed on populations neighboring Greek settlements since the 6th century, resulted in dependent, colonial type relations in this part of southern France. This atmosphere inhibited the evolution of the indigenous milieu, as can be seen in comparison to evolutions that occurred in the cultural and economic domains of other regions of Gallic southern France. "

    http://www.entremont.culture.gouv.fr/en/gaulois_rel.htm
    Last edited by arkleogist; 30-05-19 at 10:43.

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    Greeks took Buddhism to Sri Lanka.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahadharmaraksita


    In Cambodia, near Preah Khan temple are 2 figures with horns like Greek , not Indian, style.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=demo...l4aRzmAM1w_xM:

    Preah Khan has circular columns and appears to be Greek style. It has 2 floors so is not a temple.
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...STCiOHkQZq-0M:



    Greek sculpture is seen in Buddist art.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=gree...gylZw73qv7aYM:



    Indo-Greek Kingdom coins were written with Greek and Pali using the Kharosthi script , in Afghanistan and Punjab. This script went to SE Asia. "Stylistically, the Prohear ring ( Cambodia) resembles inscribed gold, copper and bronze rings typical of Saka-Parthian (first century AD) levels at the site of Sirkap, in the Taxila region of Pakistan . A Sembiran ( Indonesia) potsherd inscribed with characters in Kharoshthi script, also implies links with the north Indian subcontinent, particularly the Taxila region. The Kharoshthi script was of Aramaic origin in the Achaemenid Empire of Persia (sixth to fifth century BC). The central Asian region that includes modern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan was under Achaemenid and then Greek rule into the early first millennium AD, and was critical in the early long-distance movement of gold towards Southeast Asia."


    Probably there was Greek influence in trade , government and religion . This would take the Greek-Roman world, which reached Scotland , to a long way east.

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    This Numancia pottery could represent a man with deer horns.

    Cernunnos: represented with deer antlers on the head, is a symbol of immortality and feracity.





    Celtiberian helmets


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    Until a century ago , zamarrones of Galicia wore a zamarra goat-skin with goat-horns on their head . It is acciamara in Sardinia , Greek chimaira " goat skin". British kings and bishops wore chimere , but not goat horns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkleogist View Post
    Until a century ago , zamarrones of Galicia wore a zamarra goat-skin with goat-horns on their head . It is acciamara in Sardinia , Greek chimaira " goat skin". British kings and bishops wore chimere , but not goat horns.
    But they would take tail.

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    Here are goat horns and a tail . It had horns that turned so the back horn replaced the front one if lost in a battle, making a unicorn.


    https://www.google.com/search?q=etru...gvtc3x7sKmCqM:


    These have horns and lion tail , with split goat hooves not horse-hooves.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=brit...8oM0VvM:&vet=1


    It's a chimera , like Achelous horned snake.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=ddra...PkVms2maUUggM:



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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isleham_Hoard

    According to Iman wilkens Menelaus the victor of the trojan war and king of sparta, had his capital city on this site. while Troy was On uk soil.

    I love this theory, no need to throw the story in the mythology bin just because nothing fits in the greek setting. it all fits if you move it here. :)

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    Troy would correspond with Toija, in Southern Finland, near Turku. The Hellespont, which is said to be "wide", could not be identified with the long and narrow Dardanelles strait, but with the Gulf of Finland. It is just south of Atlantis which sent Viking Muslims to collect the golden fleece from Shangri La of the Hobbits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkleogist View Post
    Troy would correspond with Toija, in Southern Finland, near Turku. The Hellespont, which is said to be "wide", could not be identified with the long and narrow Dardanelles strait, but with the Gulf of Finland. It is just south of Atlantis which sent Viking Muslims to collect the golden fleece from Shangri La of the Hobbits.
    The famous hypothesis of the wormhole between the Dardanelles Strait and the Gulf of Finland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The famous hypothesis of the wormhole between the Dardanelles Strait and the Gulf of Finland.
    Thank you for this, I had a good laugh.

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    At Vix nearby, " in 2006, a remarkable architectural unit was discovered at the centre of the site. It is a large complex of two or three buildings, the main one measuring 35 by 21 m, with an estimated height of 12 m .. Overall, the central unit resembles the megaron complex of early Greek architecture. Such a find is unprecedented in early Celtic Europe."

    Were Celts trying to make towns that were a copy of the Greeks ? Can't find any comments on Troyes Gr / Gaul DNA genetics.

    "Excavation of the Vix settlement on the summit of Mont Lassois revealed extensive fortifications, with ditches and walls up to 8 m thick." Sounds like they had the wealth and people around them did not.

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