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Thread: I2 in Peloponnesus, Greece. Origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    What's ''slavic y-dna''
    Tells us so we can laugh all together.
    Then tell us what is greek y dna so we can laugh even harder with the necessary complications of it.
    I can tell you are a T-Roll who refuses to accept the academic/scientific consensus based upon the evidence and instead of coming to terms with the genetic impacts Slavs had in Greece and the Balkans, you make a sheer mockery of the matter. I2 in Greece and in the Peloponnesus in general is mostly I2a1b-Din which is a SLAVIC haplogroup among others like R1a-M458/R1a-Z280.

    Now go along and “Laugh”. I just hope you realize everyone else laughing will be at you and not with you.

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    There is obviously discontinuity in the Balkans. A quick look at Mesolithic Serbia at Iron Gates turns up R1b-V88 and I2-M223, both of which are nearly absent today in the same region. The latter, and it really depends on the subclade, does popup frequently in western Europe so some of the modern distribution could have arrived later from the west and north. I'm not sure why the former R-V88 is at negligible levels today, that seems to be the case outside of the Levant and central and northern Africa.
    You also can't just say "I2", as that is even more irrelevant than the big distinctions between R-V88 and R-M269 which is large enough as it is. Some of the young branches under I2-M423 are only about 2200 years old, and probably even a few centuries younger when you consider the rapid expansion. This is most definitely from the migration period of people from the NE of Europe being pushed into the Balkans by East Asian tribes who completely decimated eastern Europe and the steppe region.

    We can always use more data from the Bronze Age and Copper Age balkans, but I would be very surprised if these young branches of I2 and R1a were found in the area, despite being in high frequency today.

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    A region can have a specific haplogroup even though the population the haplogroup originated from didn't have a significant impact in the culture. For example, Basques are mainly R1b-DF27 which is a Celtic lineage, even though they don't speak an indoeuropean language and they are autosomically different to the rest of Iberia.
    Moreover, I2 is a very old haplogroup, but the specific clades that are more common in the Balkans are pretty recent and are compatible with the Slavic migrations.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I can tell you are a T-Roll who refuses to accept the academic/scientific consensus based upon the evidence and instead of coming to terms with the genetic impacts Slavs had in Greece and the Balkans, you make a sheer mockery of the matter. I2 in Greece and in the Peloponnesus in general is mostly I2a1b-Din which is a SLAVIC haplogroup among others like R1a-M458/R1a-Z280.

    Now go along and “Laugh”. I just hope you realize everyone else laughing will be at you and not with you.
    Why dont you point me out to the scientific papers that claim that :
    a) that I2 and R1a found in Greece are of those clades, and how you compute them to be..40
    %, when the entire R1a and I2 in Greece combined are..20%.
    b) i2a1b-Din, native to the Balkans, predominately in the Balkan, is a marker of ..Slavic ancestry.
    c) why the hunter gatherers of prehistory, when most certainly all of the i2 were formed, living in the interior of the balkans, stopped at the present borders of Greece, so it could only arrive with the slavs(and not 10 000 years before there was even a protoindoeuropean language.
    d)why in the world a marker of a haplogroup not related to indoeuropeans, to be a marker for specific indoeuropeans that arrived in the area in 1000 years ago.
    e) that R1a-M458/R1a-Z280 that are probably 3000 years older than anything resembling protoslavs,
    is a marker of ''Slavic'' ancestry. when it is found all over central and eastern Europe, in all ethnicities.
    Maybe again the ancient migrations stopped at the borders of Greece again, right comrade?

    And when you are done with all of that, then go further than that and prove that the scientific papers that support your claims, are the ..scientific consensus.
    I think you and i both know that by science and scientific consensus what you really mean is your wild (albanianist) imagination.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Practically all the clades of I-CTS10228 in the Balkans are of Slavic origin, arriving from Eastern Europe into the Balkans during the 6-7th Centuries. The native Balkan origin theory is outdated and has been debunked. Not sure why we still have to go through this in 2019.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Practically all the clades of I-CTS10228 in the Balkans are of Slavic origin, arriving from Eastern Europe into the Balkans during the 6-7th Centuries. The native Balkan origin theory is outdated and has been debunked. Not sure why we still have to go through this in 2019.
    Yes it was debunked from the Albanian scientist ''MArko'' with PhDs in forum diatribes from UC Tropuja.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Yes it was debunked from the Albanian scientist ''MArko'' with PhDs in forum diatribes from UC Tropuja.
    Uh no...

    I'm going to keep it simple here.

    Evidence for origin outside of Balkans:
    - Highest diversity is found in the region around Ukraine, Poland and Belarus. Interestingly, the Slavic homeland is theorised to have been here.
    - Oldest samples have been found in Poland and Russia, not a single Balkan sample. Ancestral clades found in ancient samples from Northern and Western Europe
    - Brother clades are almost exclusively found in Western Europe
    - TMRCA of major clades under Y3120 have TMRCAs which fit in well with the Slavic expansions. Many of these clades are found across Eastern Europe.

    Evidence for Balkan origin:
    - Literally nothing of note (frequency practically means nothing)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    when the entire R1a and I2 in Greece combined are..20%
    I don't know what's bothering you? This means that about 20% of today's Greeks are originally Slavic and possible smaller part White Croatian origin. That's what genetics says. There is no hiding.
    Also a good part of the Balkan Slavs have a source in White Croatia. Part of the Albanians also have White Croatian, Slavic possibly and Croatian genetic, just as Croats have part of Albanian(Illyrian) genetics. Assimilation goes in all directions.

    Why all the drama when it can not be changed?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Why dont you point me out to the scientific papers that claim that :
    a) that I2 and R1a found in Greece are of those clades, and how you compute them to be..40
    %, when the entire R1a and I2 in Greece combined are..20%.
    b) i2a1b-Din, native to the Balkans, predominately in the Balkan, is a marker of ..Slavic ancestry.
    c) why the hunter gatherers of prehistory, when most certainly all of the i2 were formed, living in the interior of the balkans, stopped at the present borders of Greece, so it could only arrive with the slavs(and not 10 000 years before there was even a protoindoeuropean language.
    d)why in the world a marker of a haplogroup not related to indoeuropeans, to be a marker for specific indoeuropeans that arrived in the area in 1000 years ago.
    e) that R1a-M458/R1a-Z280 that are probably 3000 years older than anything resembling protoslavs,
    is a marker of ''Slavic'' ancestry. when it is found all over central and eastern Europe, in all ethnicities.
    Maybe again the ancient migrations stopped at the borders of Greece again, right comrade?

    And when you are done with all of that, then go further than that and prove that the scientific papers that support your claims, are the ..scientific consensus.
    I think you and i both know that by science and scientific consensus what you really mean is your wild (albanianist) imagination.
    Moron. I’m Albanian and R1a. Despite being part of an Albanian founder effect, what exactly do I have to gain from this so called “albanianist imagination”?

    I’m not going to sift through the numerous studies that mention this. You’re not a baby. It doesn’t become less of a fact because you don’t like the reality. Your claims of I2/R1a literally came out of your a s s. Here you go, not perfect but illustrates my point.

    The total Slavic Ydna in Greece is between 15-35 percent nationally. There is literally no updated science that classified them as anything but Balto-Slavic. Accept the reality.

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml - search m458/z280


    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml -search cts10228

    R1a-Z280:5-7.5% throughout Greece. Most clades shared with Slavs 1000-2000 years.

    [IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/mDgmZS4V/D33-A7...3835-B5-E8.png[/IMG]

    R1a-M458: 5-7.5% throughout Greece. Most clades shared with Slavs 1000-2000 years ago.

    [IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/j2g20tXZ/F55-D7...0079272-F3.jpg[/IMG]

    I2a1(almost entirely CTS10228): between 5-20% in any given area. Most clades shared with Slavs between 1000-2100 years.

    [IMG]https://i.postimg.cc/mkFJRS3J/C13-CB...-F7-C05-F3.jpg[/IMG]

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    Moron. I’m Albanian and R1a. Despite being part of an Albanian founder effect, what exactly do I have to gain from this so called “albanianist imagination”?

    Listen Albanian ..Abraham,Slavs came from Ukraine as tribes not isolates, pushed by population movements.
    So their profile must be the same as the profile of people of central west Ukraine. The problem with your little theory, Slavic DnA in its the purest form, which necessarily must be in Ukraine, not only cause it was the cradle of Slavs, but the outflow of people was always out of the region not into it , doesnt have much I2 , Din or otherwise. Central and western Slavs have even less. Even Serbs and Bulgarians that should have been heavily mixed with the locals(and are) have higher I2 linages than Ukrainians. How in the world that would have been even mathematical possible? It defies logic .

    Go ahead, Show me any model, try your best, that I2+R1a starts in any analogy from Ukraine(25%i2 50%R1a there), and with in 200-300 years it reaches Bosnian Croats at 70% I2 and 10% R1a.
    Go ahead..
    I’m not going to sift through the numerous studies that mention this. You’re not a baby. It doesn’t become less of a fact because you don’t like the reality. Your claims of I2/R1a literally came out of your a s s. Here you go, not perfect but illustrates my point.
    You arent going to back up your claims with anything resembling evidence, yet alone studies, but you will refer me to pictures.
    Ok buddy.
    The total Slavic Ydna in Greece is between 15-35 percent nationally. There is literally no updated science that classified them as anything but Balto-Slavic. Accept the reality.
    That's not reality , that's your opinion which you only base on hot Albanian air. Maybe an Albanian Reality.
    FACT=I2 is native to the Balkans!
    FACT=I2 traveled to the 4 corners of Europe!
    FACT=I2 Din is local to the Balkans , especially high in the areas of historical Illyria.
    FACT=Balkanic interior people were hunter gatherers.
    FACT=Greece has the most ancient homo and hominid archaeological evidence of hunter gatherers in Europe(at least).
    FACT=Archaeological evidence show continuous habitation of Balkans interior, from Croatia and western Romania, to Bosnia and western Bulgaria to the Greek shores, from 15000 to 5000Bc from a Mesolithic civilization.

    All the above are evidence based FACTS!

    Let's see what it must be true in order your Albanian theory to be correct.
    a) Hunter gatherers in Greece went extinct so they didn't inherited (via mixing) genetic lineages to the arriving pre-greeks(etegreeks) which were of Ev13 and J2 lineages(otherwise they would be recorded in modern Greeks too along with the Ev13 and J2)
    b) Hunter gathers from the Balkan interior(on the premise that I2 is native to the Balkans and they were carriers of that linage) for 30 000 years never crossed Greece borders,although the climate during the last ice and at the end of the ice age all the way to prehistory(30 000 Bc to 10 000 Bc), would have been ideal in Greece, and in spite Greece been 200 Km away. They did find their way, though, amidst the last ice age, to Ukraine where the Climate was life prohibiting Tundra(that's a fact too, the timeline a ? though).
    c)Then in Ukraine they remained there in for 10 to 20 000 years, until the Slavic migrations started, and they reintroduced the I2 in central and easter Europe , and the Balkans.
    d)all other clades of I2 in the Balkans, meanwhile went an extinction event and disappeared , so now The I2 dinaric is the only one found in the Balkans(more or less), although that must have happened more than 7000 years ago, as in Yugoslavs in the region there are sizable numbers of J2 and E-v13 linages, who didnt arrive in the Balkans before 7000Bc, that inherited their lineages to the the Yougoslavs, but among them not a linage of I2 (as it isnt found in modern yougoslavs/other than i2din). The Balkanic Mesolithic civilization therefor that lasted from 15000 to 5000 bc, cant be a creation of people of J2 or E-v13 lineages, cause they weren't there, and cant be a product of I2 lineage people cause they went extinct in the middle of the era.
    Maybe it was Martians.
    e) Finally I2 Din is reintroduced in the Balkans with the arriving Slavs, and into Greece too.

    All these must necessarily be true according to your hypothesis.
    Do you have any idea how nonsensical all that sound?

    OR..

    We can go with common scene, Logic of Ockham's razor . I2 Din was already in the Balkans and spread around geographically( as other I2 clades have done earlierall over Europe(literally) in much harsher conditions) over 10 000 years, long before there was anyone resembling indoeruopean in Europe, and via mixing it was inherited to the (eventually) Indoeuropean nationalities(as j2 and E-v13 did) Balkanic nations came from the mixing of preexisting populations and the arriving indoEuropean elite,which was the minority. Same occurred with the Yugoslavs and it is reflected in their genetics. Why so high concentrations of I2 in Bosnia then, higher than near by Serbia and croatia? Cause Bosnia is one long inhospitable mountain range, at the peak of the Dinaric alps, that dint appeal to agriculturalist and other trade based civilizations. Geography kept them relatively insulated until the modern era.
    Last edited by Parapolitikos; 12-10-19 at 10:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Listen Albanian .......
    How about you come try and make me Greek?

    There is literally more holes than Swiss cheese in the nonsense you’re spewing. You know nothing about Ydna or even subclades to make anything remotely close to an accurate statement.

    You are so deluded that instead of accepting the reality of the genetic impact barbarian raids had in your land, you twist the truth to comfort your deflated ego.

    Too hard for you to accept the genetic impact left but Slavs in Greece and The Balkans?

    ancient? even a laymen who only casually researches genetics doesn’t have their head buried as deep into their bum as you do.


    il defer to experts instead of a Greek whose I2a1b-Din and cant fathom his ancestors being descended from ancient Slavs instead of “Alexander” without wanting to put a 12 gauge into his mouth pulling the trigger.

    you’re such a short bus it ain’t even funny. Get used to it 15-35 percent of Greeks only trace their ancestor to Slavs 1500 years ago. I’m not going to baby you. You ignored the links I posted as well that weren’t pictures of maps. Links that refer to studies and ages of clades in the Balkans.

    Middle Ages short bus, Middle Ages. Learn the difference. Why did you delete I2a1b from your profile if you’re sure it’s ancient Balkan? I guess all the experts really missed the mark and need the help of basement dweller Parapolitikos instead. You know because I guess their research and degrees count for little beside the supreme intellect of a Greek!(that was sarcasm).

    You remind of the Greek user catgeorge on apricity who claims I2a1b is ancient Thracian. He can’t come to terms with having a Slavic ancestor either.

    Ancient dna? Polish and Russian Slavs. Ancient Balkan dna? A Neolithic basal I2a1 that is over 10000 years separated from the clades in the Balkans which are entirely from Slavic migration.

    All CTS10228 men descend from one survivor in 100 BC. The most prolific sub clade in the Balkans only to 200AD. Please enlighten us oh wise one on how nearly 100 percent of I2a1b in modern men, descending from 1 man between 100BCE-200CE, of which nearly 100 percent of men are Slavic, somehow spread from the Balkans and Ancient Greece. If R1a-“/I2a is not Slavic WHAT IS?


    Ge the hell out of here with your uninformed self.

    Would you like a whaaburger with your French cries sir?
    Last edited by Dibran; 12-10-19 at 14:23.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Listen Albanian ..Abraham,Slavs came from Ukraine as tribes not isolates, pushed by population movements.
    So their profile must be the same as the profile of people of central west Ukraine. The problem with your little theory, Slavic DnA in its the purest form, which necessarily must be in Ukraine, not only cause it was the cradle of Slavs, but the outflow of people was always out of the region not into it , doesnt have much I2 , Din or otherwise. Central and western Slavs have even less. Even Serbs and Bulgarians that should have been heavily mixed with the locals(and are) have higher I2 linages than Ukrainians. How in the world that would have been even mathematical possible? It defies logic .

    Go ahead, Show me any model, try your best, that I2+R1a starts in any analogy from Ukraine(25%i2 50%R1a there), and with in 200-300 years it reaches Bosnian Croats at 70% I2 and 10% R1a.
    Go ahead..
    You arent going to back up your claims with anything resembling evidence, yet alone studies, but you will refer me to pictures.
    Ok buddy.
    That's not reality , that's your opinion which you only base on hot Albanian air. Maybe an Albanian Reality.
    FACT=I2 is native to the Balkans!
    FACT=I2 traveled to the 4 corners of Europe!
    FACT=I2 Din is local to the Balkans , especially high in the areas of historical Illyria.
    FACT=Balkanic interior people were hunter gatherers.
    FACT=Greece has the most ancient homo and hominid archaeological evidence of hunter gatherers in Europe(at least).
    FACT=Archaeological evidence show continuous habitation of Balkans interior, from Croatia and western Romania, to Bosnia and western Bulgaria to the Greek shores, from 15000 to 5000Bc from a Mesolithic civilization.

    All the above are evidence based FACTS!

    Let's see what it must be true in order your Albanian theory to be correct.
    a) Hunter gatherers in Greece went extinct so they didn't inherited (via mixing) genetic lineages to the arriving pre-greeks(etegreeks) which were of Ev13 and J2 lineages(otherwise they would be recorded in modern Greeks too along with the Ev13 and J2)
    b) Hunter gathers from the Balkan interior(on the premise that I2 is native to the Balkans and they were carriers of that linage) for 30 000 years never crossed Greece borders,although the climate during the last ice and at the end of the ice age all the way to prehistory(30 000 Bc to 10 000 Bc), would have been ideal in Greece, and in spite Greece been 200 Km away. They did find their way, though, amidst the last ice age, to Ukraine where the Climate was life prohibiting Tundra(that's a fact too, the timeline a ? though).
    c)Then in Ukraine they remained there in for 10 to 20 000 years, until the Slavic migrations started, and they reintroduced the I2 in central and easter Europe , and the Balkans.
    d)all other clades of I2 in the Balkans, meanwhile went an extinction event and disappeared , so now The I2 dinaric is the only one found in the Balkans(more or less), although that must have happened more than 7000 years ago, as in Yugoslavs in the region there are sizable numbers of J2 and E-v13 linages, who didnt arrive in the Balkans before 7000Bc, that inherited their lineages to the the Yougoslavs, but among them not a linage of I2 (as it isnt found in modern yougoslavs/other than i2din). The Balkanic Mesolithic civilization therefor that lasted from 15000 to 5000 bc, cant be a creation of people of J2 or E-v13 lineages, cause they weren't there, and cant be a product of I2 lineage people cause they went extinct in the middle of the era.
    Maybe it was Martians.
    e) Finally I2 Din is reintroduced in the Balkans with the arriving Slavs, and into Greece too.

    All these must necessarily be true according to your hypothesis.
    Do you have any idea how nonsensical all that sound?

    OR..

    We can go with common scene, Logic of Ockham's razor . I2 Din was already in the Balkans and spread around geographically( as other I2 clades have done earlierall over Europe(literally) in much harsher conditions) over 10 000 years, long before there was anyone resembling indoeruopean in Europe, and via mixing it was inherited to the (eventually) Indoeuropean nationalities(as j2 and E-v13 did) Balkanic nations came from the mixing of preexisting populations and the arriving indoEuropean elite,which was the minority. Same occurred with the Yugoslavs and it is reflected in their genetics. Why so high concentrations of I2 in Bosnia then, higher than near by Serbia and croatia? Cause Bosnia is one long inhospitable mountain range, at the peak of the Dinaric alps, that dint appeal to agriculturalist and other trade based civilizations. Geography kept them relatively insulated until the modern era.
    I don't understand why you lot are so insecure when it comes to having Slavic DNA, complexes much....

    The reason why I2a-Y3120 is so high in modern day South Slavs is because of founder effects, simply put they had far more male offspring than the others. Frequency means literally nothing. Fact is that CTS10228 and Y3120 don't reach high diversity in the Balkans, but they do in Eastern Europe. Plus the TMRCA fits with Slavic expansion. Please explain how a clade that reaches highest diversity in Eastern Europe, has ancient DNA samples in Eastern Europe and has TMRCA fitting with Slavic migrations is native to the Balkans?

    The argument that the Slavs had no genetic influence because of the mountain ranges in the Balkans is pure nonsense and fantasy. Cultures that formerly lived in steppe or forested areas can easily adapt to mountainous terrains. This is evident by how the Slavic culture, language and genetics were able to be spread across the Balkans.

    You're just typing nonsense at this point, please read over what you have written. Also learn the difference between I2 and I2a-Y3120, they aren't the same thing you know..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Listen Albanian ..Abraham,Slavs came from Ukraine as tribes not isolates, pushed by population movements.
    So their profile must be the same as the profile of people of central west Ukraine. The problem with your little theory, Slavic DnA in its the purest form, which necessarily must be in Ukraine, not only cause it was the cradle of Slavs, but the outflow of people was always out of the region not into it , doesnt have much I2 , Din or otherwise. Central and western Slavs have even less. Even Serbs and Bulgarians that should have been heavily mixed with the locals(and are) have higher I2 linages than Ukrainians. How in the world that would have been even mathematical possible? It defies logic .

    Go ahead, Show me any model, try your best, that I2+R1a starts in any analogy from Ukraine(25%i2 50%R1a there), and with in 200-300 years it reaches Bosnian Croats at 70% I2 and 10% R1a.
    Go ahead..
    You arent going to back up your claims with anything resembling evidence, yet alone studies, but you will refer me to pictures.
    Ok buddy.
    That's not reality , that's your opinion which you only base on hot Albanian air. Maybe an Albanian Reality.
    FACT=I2 is native to the Balkans!
    FACT=I2 traveled to the 4 corners of Europe!
    FACT=I2 Din is local to the Balkans , especially high in the areas of historical Illyria.
    FACT=Balkanic interior people were hunter gatherers.
    FACT=Greece has the most ancient homo and hominid archaeological evidence of hunter gatherers in Europe(at least).
    FACT=Archaeological evidence show continuous habitation of Balkans interior, from Croatia and western Romania, to Bosnia and western Bulgaria to the Greek shores, from 15000 to 5000Bc from a Mesolithic civilization.

    All the above are evidence based FACTS!

    Let's see what it must be true in order your Albanian theory to be correct.
    a) Hunter gatherers in Greece went extinct so they didn't inherited (via mixing) genetic lineages to the arriving pre-greeks(etegreeks) which were of Ev13 and J2 lineages(otherwise they would be recorded in modern Greeks too along with the Ev13 and J2)
    b) Hunter gathers from the Balkan interior(on the premise that I2 is native to the Balkans and they were carriers of that linage) for 30 000 years never crossed Greece borders,although the climate during the last ice and at the end of the ice age all the way to prehistory(30 000 Bc to 10 000 Bc), would have been ideal in Greece, and in spite Greece been 200 Km away. They did find their way, though, amidst the last ice age, to Ukraine where the Climate was life prohibiting Tundra(that's a fact too, the timeline a ? though).
    c)Then in Ukraine they remained there in for 10 to 20 000 years, until the Slavic migrations started, and they reintroduced the I2 in central and easter Europe , and the Balkans.
    d)all other clades of I2 in the Balkans, meanwhile went an extinction event and disappeared , so now The I2 dinaric is the only one found in the Balkans(more or less), although that must have happened more than 7000 years ago, as in Yugoslavs in the region there are sizable numbers of J2 and E-v13 linages, who didnt arrive in the Balkans before 7000Bc, that inherited their lineages to the the Yougoslavs, but among them not a linage of I2 (as it isnt found in modern yougoslavs/other than i2din). The Balkanic Mesolithic civilization therefor that lasted from 15000 to 5000 bc, cant be a creation of people of J2 or E-v13 lineages, cause they weren't there, and cant be a product of I2 lineage people cause they went extinct in the middle of the era.
    Maybe it was Martians.
    e) Finally I2 Din is reintroduced in the Balkans with the arriving Slavs, and into Greece too.

    All these must necessarily be true according to your hypothesis.
    Do you have any idea how nonsensical all that sound?

    OR..

    We can go with common scene, Logic of Ockham's razor . I2 Din was already in the Balkans and spread around geographically( as other I2 clades have done earlierall over Europe(literally) in much harsher conditions) over 10 000 years, long before there was anyone resembling indoeruopean in Europe, and via mixing it was inherited to the (eventually) Indoeuropean nationalities(as j2 and E-v13 did) Balkanic nations came from the mixing of preexisting populations and the arriving indoEuropean elite,which was the minority. Same occurred with the Yugoslavs and it is reflected in their genetics. Why so high concentrations of I2 in Bosnia then, higher than near by Serbia and croatia? Cause Bosnia is one long inhospitable mountain range, at the peak of the Dinaric alps, that dint appeal to agriculturalist and other trade based civilizations. Geography kept them relatively insulated until the modern era.
    you have a very simplified view of Slavic migration. It did not happen overnight. Happened gradually in the course of 2 centuries. First waves came earlier in 6th century. Last waves were bigger and most settle in Greek, South Albanian areas. On their way to Balkans they assimilated different groups and mixed with locals. So that's why Slavs of south are now different from south Poland. Slavs left toponyms all around Greece,. Greek government erased them by decree. You know better if there is any one left. Fallmerayer was astonished by large numbers of Slavic speakers when visited Greece. So largely I2 subgroup is slavic

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    I'm not a supporter of the theory that I2a-Din is originally Slavic but that it became along the way.

    Just because its expansion coincides with the Slavic migrations it doesn't prove that it was Slavic. All the Eastern and Central European tribes were migrating at the time. It was the fall of the Roman Empire and they were being pushed and carried around by Huns and Alans and other Eastern tribes from the steppes.

    The connection of I2a-Din with I2a-Disles and the fact that the closest relative of I2a-Din lives in France nowadays brings us to the Celto-Germanic migrations eastwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I'm not a supporter of the theory that I2a-Din is originally Slavic but that it became along the way.

    Just because its expansion coincides with the Slavic migrations it doesn't prove that it was Slavic. All the Eastern and Central European tribes were migrating at the time. It was the fall of the Roman Empire and they were being pushed and carried around by Huns and Alans and other Eastern tribes from the steppes.

    The connection of I2a-Din with I2a-Disles and the fact that the closest relative of I2a-Din lives in France nowadays brings us to the Celto-Germanic migrations eastwards.
    It's not only TMRCA which suggests an origin among Early or Proto-Slavs, it's also the fact that CTS10228>Y3120 is most diverse in the area where the Slavs first emerged (Poland-Ukraine-Belarus). When referring to I2a-Din, most are referring to CTS10228 or CTS10228>Y3120.

    A more western origin for CTS10228 is likely given where the ancestral and brother clades are found. So it's possible that the first CTS10228 carriers that arrived to Eastern Europe were Germanic speakers. The french sample that is CTS10228* is from the Bas-Rhin area which has a large German population, so it's likely that he has German origin.

    Data suggests that I-Y3120 took part in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs and the clades present in the Balkans today have ancestral and brother clades found in Eastern European Slavs, this suggests that Y3120 arrived with Slavic speaking peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I'm not a supporter of the theory that I2a-Din is originally Slavic but that it became along the way.

    Just because its expansion coincides with the Slavic migrations it doesn't prove that it was Slavic. All the Eastern and Central European tribes were migrating at the time. It was the fall of the Roman Empire and they were being pushed and carried around by Huns and Alans and other Eastern tribes from the steppes.

    The connection of I2a-Din with I2a-Disles and the fact that the closest relative of I2a-Din lives in France nowadays brings us to the Celto-Germanic migrations eastwards.
    Nobody says I2a is Slavic! I2a has a number of subclades! Some of them are clearly Slavic. I am also I2a and is not Slavic. Some subclades of I2a in low percentages are present throughout Europe and Turkey, North Africa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    ...
    let that delusional Greek wait for this mammoth study in a few years. Which will more than likely obliterate with absolute certainty his delusional rant. This study will more than shed light on barbarian migration period. the wealth of remains uncovered from it will give us more precise information.

    https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

    “The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    It's not only TMRCA which suggests an origin among Early or Proto-Slavs, it's also the fact that CTS10228>Y3120 is most diverse in the area where the Slavs first emerged (Poland-Ukraine-Belarus). When referring to I2a-Din, most are referring to CTS10228 or CTS10228>Y3120.

    A more western origin for CTS10228 is likely given where the ancestral and brother clades are found. So it's possible that the first CTS10228 carriers that arrived to Eastern Europe were Germanic speakers. The french sample that is CTS10228* is from the Bas-Rhin area which has a large German population, so it's likely that he has German origin.

    Data suggests that I-Y3120 took part in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs and the clades present in the Balkans today have ancestral and brother clades found in Eastern European Slavs, this suggests that Y3120 arrived with Slavic speaking peoples.
    I’m mostly in total agreement. While true that CTS10228 is most likely originally not Slavic, its tmrca is 3800 years. Roughly before pre-Proto-Germanic in southern Scandinavia. CTS10228 likely didn’t speak Slavic or even Germanic for that matter that early on. Also, 100 percent of his descendants spread with Y3120 which only dated to 200BC.

    What is more likely to have happened, is that Y3120 survived with the eastern Corded Ware(Trziniec culture) whose surviving descendant participated in Proto Slavic ethnogenesis. This potentially explains the gap of time and why basal CTS10228 appears west but Y3120 doesn’t.

    Y3120 likely survived amongst Proto Slavs exclusively. And since no I2a1b outside of a pre-CTS10228 clade found mostly in west European are negative for Y3120, it’s almost guaranteed the only surviving child of CTS10228 spread exclusively with Slavs. Regardless of cross assimilation at various intervals of the Middle Ages.

    theres not even much debate of some R1a clades that are even more widespread and diverse than I2a1b.

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    Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

    These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

    A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

    Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

    We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

    Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

    These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

    A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

    Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

    We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

    Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.
    How CTS10228 got there, was already answered. It arrived from the west. We can't exactly say when it arrived but it was most definitely after the Bronze Age. R-V88 was a Paleolithic and Mesolithic line, they were almost completely wiped out. I-Y3120 however is post Bronze Age.

    The fact that I-CTS10228 outnumbers R1a in the Western Balkans is due to founder effects. It's not as if these tribes knew what haplogroup they belonged to. R1a is still pretty common among western South Slavs (Serbs - 16.5%, Croats - ~27%, Bosniaks - 17%). As for different subclades under Y3120 in the east and west, we should remember that the Slavic migration happened in different waves and in each wave different tribes who had different origins arrived. The first wave which, happened some time during the 6th Century, saw the migration of Slavs that likely spoke a language ancestral to Bulgarian, whilst the 7th Century migration saw a population ancestral to Serbo-Croats arrive. It's not like all South Slavs have the same origin.

    If CTS10228>Y3120 arrived with Celtic or Germanic speakers as you suggested, we would see multiple brother clades under Y3120 and CTS10228 that are found in Western and Central Europe. We would also expect higher levels of diversity under CTS10228 and more basal clades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

    These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

    A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

    Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

    We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

    Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.
    thats besides the point. There’s possibilities older varieties existed amongst those other tribes but every sing CTS102228 man alive today trace their ancestor back to Y3120 which was only 1 man living in 100BC. Nearly 100 percent of which is found in Slavs. Kelmandasi already explained the over representation of these lines in the Balkans are due to founder effects and bottlenecks with a complete lack of diversity.

    Its diversity is closer to the Slavic urheimat(Poland/Belarus/Ukraine). All the Middle Ages sample were heavily Slavic any ways from the 8th century on. Pre migration data would help sure, but it’s evident that from the 8th century on, those carrying this line were genetically and by the grave site mostly Slavs.

    Its funny you mention R1a, as if a ethnogenesis of a people is represented only by one blood line. The R1a branches are EVEN MORE diverse and spread out amongst various ethnic groups than I2a1b-Din is. And yet you’re trying to shift Slavic origin solely to R1a because it’s found more on the lowland?

    slavs adapted and settled the mountains too, which explains the bottlenecks and founder effects occurring in the West Balkans causing the disparity with R1a.

    The most common clades of I2a1b are even younger than some R1a clades. PH908 for instance come from one male survivor in 200CE in the early Middle Ages.


    I2a1b/M458/Z280 together are pivotal to the ethnogenesis of the Proto Slavs the same way as V13/J2b/R1b was to Proto Albanians. I2a1b is found everywhere you find Slavs and almost no where among west Europeans. There is yet to be one old CTS102228 cluster predating Slavic expansion that is only found in the Balkans.

    Dacians and Illyrians and Thracians didn’t carry modern I2a1b-CTS10228. If so you would have more diversity of branches associated with different groups. The fact remains that most of the basal branches are only found in northern and Eastern Slavs with descending clades undergoing founder effects and bottlenecks among Balkan Slavs.

    There’s really no debate about its connection to the Slavic expansion the same as there is no debate to the paleo Balkans lineages that were apart of Albanian expansions.

    The one Greek I2a1b branch is the only interesting case representing a potential earlier split before the migration. This branch is currently minimal and only found in some Greeks and east European Jews.

    Most I2a1b clades in the Balkans only has one ancestor between 1000-1800 years back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    thats besides the point. There’s possibilities older varieties existed amongst those other tribes but every sing CTS102228 man alive today trace their ancestor back to Y3120 which was only 1 man living in 100BC. Nearly 100 percent of which is found in Slavs. Kelmandasi already explained the over representation of these lines in the Balkans are due to founder effects and bottlenecks with a complete lack of diversity.
    Founder effect on an entire geographical region, mountainous, with a different physical appearance, traditional dress, customs, warrior society playing the lahuta/gusle, dark features and of the so-called Dinaric type, with strong previous Vlach and Albanian presence reflected in place names, personal names, etc?

    If you're really curious, give yourself some basic knowledge on the traditional clothes of different Croatian regions and notice something interesting. Look at their faces also, their local culture related to their daily profession, and nature of music, songs, and dances. Tell me if you can't clearly see who's Illyrian, Slavic, or Italianized.
    https://www.facebook.com/pg/Croatian...=page_internal

    My favourite and the most interesting is the men dancing in the end, area of Vrlika. Amazing! Tell me this isn't some Illyrian dance with typical movements seen in today's Ghegs, Tosks, Epirotes, Macedonians, Thessalians, Arvanites, Aetolo-Akarnanians.




    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Its funny you mention R1a, as if a ethnogenesis of a people is represented only by one blood line. The R1a branches are EVEN MORE diverse and spread out amongst various ethnic groups than I2a1b-Din is. And yet you’re trying to shift Slavic origin solely to R1a because it’s found more on the lowland?

    slavs adapted and settled the mountains too, which explains the bottlenecks and founder effects occurring in the West Balkans causing the disparity with R1a.
    Thing is, you're the only one speaking confidently of ethnogenesis. I've been reading Roman history all my life and to me Slavs are just another Eastern European tribe that appeared in Roman sources, which are so confusing and misinterpreted (to be expected) that you never understand who was what. Most of those migrations were carried by a wide range of alliances between tribes of 3 or more ethnicities.

    Did you know how many times the local Illyrians and Thracians (besides the Dacians that is a known fact) joined the "barbarians" against the Romans/Byzantines and even marched to Rome itself to destroy it?

    So you can't speak with confidence who was who in 200 BC in that area of Eastern Europe and who moved where. You can only speak after an ethnos was well established in a geographic area hundreds of years after.

    FYI, funerary practices all over Illyricum, from Dalmatia down to Albania (Mati culture) were not interrupted in all those centuries of Slavic migrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Dacians and Illyrians and Thracians didn’t carry modern I2a1b-CTS10228. If so you would have more diversity of branches associated with different groups. The fact remains that most of the basal branches are only found in northern and Eastern Slavs with descending clades undergoing founder effects and bottlenecks among Balkan Slavs.
    Again, you can't really know this mate. You naively assumed that I believe only R1a is Slavic but it's you who actually carries this mindset. You think because Albanians have mostly E-V13, J2b, and R1b that Illyrians and Dacians couldn't have carried them? How can you speak so confidently for Illyrians who lived up to modern Austria and Hungary (Pannonia) and had settlements even further North bordering the Germanic tribes, and even worse is the case of the Carpathian Dacians who could have ended up anywhere they wanted for hundreds of years after being defeated and massacred by the Romans. Many were transplanted into Illyricum/Moesia while others vanished from history only to be counted later among the other barbarians pillaging the Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There’s really no debate about its connection to the Slavic expansion the same as there is no debate to the paleo Balkans lineages that were apart of Albanian expansions.
    Albanian expansion? What is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The one Greek I2a1b branch is the only interesting case representing a potential earlier split before the migration. This branch is currently minimal and only found in some Greeks and east European Jews.
    You have a long list of candidates for the origin of CTS10228 specifically but in the end yes, Slavs were part of the reason of its current distribution, alongside Goths, Dacians, Getae, Scythians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc.

    We just can't possibly know unless we find for instance a uniquely Sarmatian Iron Age grave that carries CTS10228 among other clades.

    And that mysterious Greek branch should open the eyes to everyone and stop seeing this matter so black and white. Maybe by 2030 we'll have 5 other examples like it and conclude that CTS10228 is Bavarian or Steppe-Caucasian or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Founder effect on an entire geographical region, mountainous, with a different physical appearance, traditional dress, customs, warrior society playing the lahuta/gusle, dark features and of the so-called Dinaric type, with strong previous Vlach and Albanian presence reflected in place names, personal names, etc?

    If you're really curious, give yourself some basic knowledge on the traditional clothes of different Croatian regions and notice something interesting. Look at their faces also, their local culture related to their daily profession, and nature of music, songs, and dances.

    In my eyes, CTS10228 is a clade affected by the Slavic migrations, not involved in the creation of the true Proto-Slavs of which we know nothing about.


    Thing is, you're the only one speaking confidently of ethnogenesis. I've been reading Roman history all my life and to me Slavs are just another Eastern European tribe that appeared in Roman sources, which are so confusing and misinterpreted (to be expected) that you never understand who was what. Most of those migrations were carried by a wide range of alliances between tribes of 3 or more ethnicities.

    Did you know how many times the local Illyrians and Thracians (besides the Dacians that is a known fact) joined the "barbarians" against the Romans/Byzantines and even marched to Rome itself to destroy it?

    So you can't speak with confidence who was who in 200 BC in that area of Eastern Europe and who moved where. You can only speak after an ethnos was well established in a geographic area hundreds of years after.

    FYI, funerary practices all over Illyricum, from Dalmatia down to Albania (Mati culture) were not interrupted in all those centuries of Slavic migrations.


    Again, you can't really know this mate. You naively assumed that I believe only R1a is Slavic but it's you who actually carries this mindset. You think because Albanians have mostly E-V13, J2b, and R1b that Illyrians and Dacians couldn't have carried them? How can you speak so confidently for Illyrians who lived up to modern Austria and Hungary (Pannonia) and had settlements even further North bordering the Germanic tribes, and even worse is the case of the Carpathian Dacians who could have ended up anywhere they wanted for hundreds of years after being defeated and massacred by the Romans. Many were transplanted into Illyricum/Moesia while others vanished from history only to be counted later among the other barbarians pillaging the Balkans.


    Albanian expansion? What is that?


    You have a long list of candidates for the origin of CTS10228 specifically but in the end yes, Slavs were part of the reason of its current distribution, alongside Goths, Dacians, Getae, Scythians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc.

    We just can't possibly know unless we find for instance a uniquely Sarmatian Iron Age grave that carries CTS10228 among other clades.

    And that mysterious Greek branch should open the eyes to everyone and stop seeing this matter so black and white. Maybe by 2030 we'll have 5 other examples like it and conclude that CTS10228 is Bavarian or Steppe-Caucasian or whatever.
    i don’t think you really get what I’m saying and it’s not something that I solely believe or have come to understanding. It’s the consensus. I had the same approach to it as you did. Yet that was until I realized that a clade represents only ONE survivor.

    All living CTS10228 men tested up until now with exception of the basal Frenchman are Y3120 positive. The most recent ancestor of this clade lived around 100BCE. Now I understand lineages can multiply rapidly in a few hundred years given favorable circumstances.

    However, how can you possibly explain all living I-Y3120 men being descended from various moving tribes and cultures when they all spread from only ONE man in 100BCE?

    Additionally that Greek I-Y3120 is its OWN branch that split from the other 99 percent of clades that to this day are found predominantly in Slavs. The idea that all R1a avoided mountains is silly. You have clades among Ghegs too however minimal. So the location of I2a1b-Y3120 in mountains is not really an argument. You also cannot equate phenotype and genome with Y chromosomes. otherwise you would be hard pressed to explain to me how a full blooded Chinese people carry I1, and L1029.

    It only takes a few generations of assimilation and intermixing to change the course of a lineage given the circumstances. Humans are highly adaptable. Proto Albanians descended from Illyrians Dardanians, Romans Macedonians etc. so when I say E-V13/J2b/R1b expanded with early phase Proto Albanians I mean they were the most dominant and successful. Other lineages May have existed before. And surely many were introduced much later, differentiating later old Albanians from Proto Albanian. So on and so forth.

    Many Northern Albanian I2a1b-CTS10228 is PH908. Its tmrca is only 1800 years. That means all PH908 men alive today come from only one man in 200CE. Which means by the time of the migration these men were a tribe. PH908 is most diverse amongst Serbo-Croatian tribes. The branch common in southern Albanians is shared with Vlachs and Bulgarians. Which is something like only 1500-1700ybp. How could one man only a little over 2000 years ago be the root of so many ancient people’s being established even further back in the Bronze and Iron Age. We can tell what haplotypes are originated from Albanians so how can we not do this for Slavs?

    Its easy to see by the age of clades and shared matches how these groups possibly expanded. And there’s no other scenario That really makes sense. The only R1a In Thracians found was a Z93 branch that is unrelated to the modern spread which makes up little R1a in Balkans.

    Also the I2 was completely separate branches from the one represented in the Balkans today. This isn’t like diversity in V13 where clades can be separated by 3000 or more years. This is a line which the entire group belonging to it comes from ONE man in 100BCE. There’s simply not enough time to explain its dissemination into various ethnos.

    In order for your scenario to work there should be various founder branches splitting CTS10228 representing a German branch, and Albanian branch and so on, much like the minor Greek/Jewish branch. The truth is though the rest of it only spread from one guy no less more than 2000 years ago.

    I have no problem seeing the line go through cross assimilation and being carried minimally by Avars l, Goths, etc. But Thracians, Getai, Dacians, and Illyrians? That’s simply to far back in time giving no time for that one Y3120 guy in the late Iron Age to even remotely be connected to all those people. If there was a brother clade to Y3120 that split during its formation, then we can identify potentially older less common branches. They’re all young and over represented in Slavs though.

    Using your logic we should see huge diverse branches in the lineage. And maybe by 2030 this could be revealed as you say. Yet, that’s not the case for all tested CTS10228 men tested at this time. Albanians and Vlachs share the same branches with Bulgarians and Romanians, and recently. Nothing ancient. Something like the common ancestor of all those men living in only 300-500CE. These all line up with the migration. I don’t see how a Thracian or Dacian survived that late and magically developed into Slavs Albanians and Vlachs/Romanians.

    Maybe branches like thst Greek on exist but that’s hardly the case. I wouldn’t attach existing branches to any other than Slavs, East Germanics, Avars, Bulgars or Sarmatians at the moment. There’s simply nothing remotely convincing or even approaching real evidence that these lineages were even older.

    Unless they discover some ancient carrier of these modern branches they’re simply to young to represent all the scenarios you propose.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    i don’t think you really get what I’m saying and it’s not something that I solely believe or have come to understanding. It’s the consensus. I had the same approach to it as you did. Yet that was until I realized that a clade represents only ONE survivor.

    All living CTS10228 men tested up until now with exception of the basal Frenchman are Y3120 positive. The most recent ancestor of this clade lived around 100BCE. Now I understand lineages can multiply rapidly in a few hundred years given favorable circumstances.

    However, how can you possibly explain all living I-Y3120 men being descended from various moving tribes and cultures when they all spread from only ONE man in 100BCE?
    I see that we're not understanding each other at all. I claimed exactly the opposite of what you're assuming, that because it was only 1 man 2200 years ago that you cannot pinpoint to Slavs.

    We don't know when that man lived where, especially in a region where we have all the aforementioned tribes. Eastern Europe wasn't like Western Europe where you just had Celts, that's it. That's an exaggeration but trying to make a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Additionally that Greek I-Y3120 is its OWN branch that split from the other 99 percent of clades that to this day are found predominantly in Slavs. The idea that all R1a avoided mountains is silly. You have clades among Ghegs too however minimal. So the location of I2a1b-Y3120 in mountains is not really an argument. You also cannot equate phenotype and genome with Y chromosomes. otherwise you would be hard pressed to explain to me how a full blooded Chinese people carry I1, and L1029.
    You're comparing rarities with currently a very widespread branch. Chinese man carrying I1 is completely off topic, same as you belonging to L1029 which the fact that is found in Sardinians qualifies it as more likely Germanic in my opinion. And the fact that it created a founder effect in Albanians specifically means your ancestor came very early possibly before Slavs and didn't pillage Illyria Graeca with his tribesman, more like a Romanized settler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Many Northern Albanian I2a1b-CTS10228 is PH908. Its tmrca is only 1800 years. That means all PH908 men alive today come from only one man in 200CE. Which means by the time of the migration these men were a tribe. PH908 is most diverse amongst Serbo-Croatian tribes. The branch common in southern Albanians is shared with Vlachs and Bulgarians. Which is something like only 1500-1700ybp. How could one man only a little over 2000 years ago be the root of so many ancient people’s being established even further back in the Bronze and Iron Age. We can tell what haplotypes are originated from Albanians so how can we not do this for Slavs?
    If you actually carefully read what I posted, you would understand that I'm not denying he was a Slav. It would be hypocritical of me to say that "I don't know what he was but he wasn't a Slav". There's just too many hints that CTS10228 represents an earlier population than Slavs that got assimilated by the locals and were originally more closely related to the locals than the more distant Slavs. Maybe he was just a very early Slav brought by Goths, but we can apply this logic with at least 10 different tribes that pillaged the Balkans.

    But the problem is that you've spent more time on studying the genetics rather than history of Eastern Europe and Balkans in those centuries that you can only think of Slavs. But we have evidence that ancient Greeks were mostly right about the fact that this area was mostly populated by Germanic and Scythian/Sarmatian tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I have no problem seeing the line go through cross assimilation and being carried minimally by Avars l, Goths, etc. But Thracians, Getai, Dacians, and Illyrians? That’s simply to far back in time giving no time for that one Y3120 guy in the late Iron Age to even remotely be connected to all those people. If there was a brother clade to Y3120 that split during its formation, then we can identify potentially older less common branches. They’re all young and over represented in Slavs though.

    Using your logic we should see huge diverse branches in the lineage. And maybe by 2030 this could be revealed as you say. Yet, that’s not the case for all tested CTS10228 men tested at this time. Albanians and Vlachs share the same branches with Bulgarians and Romanians, and recently. Nothing ancient. Something like the common ancestor of all those men living in only 300-500CE. These all line up with the migration. I don’t see how a Thracian or Dacian survived that late and magically developed into Slavs Albanians and Vlachs/Romanians.
    I intentionally didn't mention Thracians but Dacians, Getae, and Pannonians. But you're thinking is that Pannonians almost near Bavaria in Germany were the same as the Atintani down South just because they're both Illyrian/Illyroid tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Maybe branches like thst Greek on exist but that’s hardly the case. I wouldn’t attach existing branches to any other than Slavs, East Germanics, Avars, Bulgars or Sarmatians at the moment. There’s simply nothing remotely convincing or even approaching real evidence that these lineages were even older.
    We're finally speaking the same language. You left Celts out of that list but that's ok because there's many more tribes we're not including or we don't know off because they were probably wiped out by the larger tribes and the Greeks and Romans couldn't distinguish them from their neighbours.

    But I still keep an eye at the fact that we have the mysterious events in the Dinaric Alps, then magically in the vicinity of Zagreb R1a jumps higher up to 35% in Northern areas, appearances change, culture changes, etc. what I said before. Genetics isn't supposed to explain everything or rather you need knowledge on several fields to be able to come to conclusions (e.g. history, archaeology, anthropology, linguistics, etc.).

    IMO those remaining and already assimilated Vlachs of ex-Yugoslavia will be of great help in solving this mystery. It's exactly where they mostly lived (Dinaric Alps in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Dalmatia) that also the modern Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian developed, and 1 indication is it's loss of pronunciation of "h" and other typical Romance features.

    You've been raised in US so I don't expect you to speak Italian, but if you go to Wikipedia and read how the Dalmatian langauge sounds like is like a typical Gheg Malesor trying to speak Italian with his heavy accent and nasal voices, pronouncing vowels as "ou", "uo", "ua" instead just "a" or "u". These are the areas that Vlachs dominated and up to 25% of them had still Albanians surnames even when they migrated North to Lika in Croatia, far from the "core" of the area.

    The so-called region of Kutmichevitsa in South East Albania was the area where Cyrillic, Old Church Slavonic, and Eastern Orthodox culture was spread from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

    Then you have the same area included together with Bulgaria in the Kingdom of Bulgarians and Vlachs, and we know well from history that especially in these areas and vicinity Vlachs were far more numerous than the Slavic newcomers. Obviously mass assimilation happened since Slavic became lingua franca and the fact that within Albania Vlachs have strangely elevated levels of I2a and R1a makes you wonder, were they really Slavs before that became Vlachs/shepherds? Then their other Slavic cousins came and found them entirely Romanized within a century and living a nomadic lifestyle, while the identical newcomers settled almost exclusively in the lowlands? (explains how mostly lowlands and river valleys have Slavic names in South Albania)

    Long story short, too many tribes, too many inconsistencies, too many gaps and ignorance on local Balkan tribes even 1000 years after the arrival of Slavs where non-Slavs were confused with Slavs by foreign writers, etc.

    Just like with Slavs migrating in the Balkans, I can go on forever with Celtic settlements since 4th century BC all over Northern Balkans, Goths, Germanic foederati settled everywhere in Moesia and Thrace, resettled Carpi in Illyria, resettled Dacians and Getae in Illyria, resettled Illyrians in Dacia, Scythians and Sarmatians continuously pillaging Illyrian and Moesia together with Dacians. So a thousand chances for those CTS10228 to have slipped in.

  25. #50
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    Nik
    But I still keep an eye at the fact that we have the mysterious events in the Dinaric Alps, then magically in the vicinity of Zagreb R1a jumps higher up to 35% in Northern areas, appearances change, culture changes, etc. what I said before.
    Are you a member of the Serbian forum(because they too like to use such argumentation)?

    "Appearances change, culture changes, etc." it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone, here we can add and language, names, last names, dialects, music, etc.

    As far as R1a is concerned there are no drastic jumps behind Dinaric Alps. R1a is the second haplotype in Dalmatia, out of 220 people 120 have I2a while 42 people have R1a, in northwestern Croatia out of 220 people R1a has 64 people.

    Genetics isn't supposed to explain everything or rather you need knowledge on several fields to be able to come to conclusions (e.g. history, archaeology, anthropology, linguistics, etc.).


    The only thing that proves migration of someone in some area is archeogenetics, archeology, genetics and then comes written records. Linguistics does not prove origin of someone.

    IMO those remaining and already assimilated Vlachs of ex-Yugoslavia will be of great help in solving this mystery. It's exactly where they mostly lived (Dinaric Alps in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Dalmatia) that also the modern Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian developed,
    The Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared in the 12th century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian

    Therefore it is a dialect of the original Slavic language and has no connection with original Vlachs(which were not originally Slavs). Whether with later assimilation that dialect adopted in Vlachs groups which later spread through migrations in the Turkish era that's another matter.

    You've been raised in US so I don't expect you to speak Italian, but if you go to Wikipedia and read how the Dalmatian langauge sounds like is like a typical Gheg Malesor trying to speak Italian with his heavy accent and nasal voices, pronouncing vowels as "ou", "uo", "ua" instead just "a" or "u". These are the areas that Vlachs dominated and up to 25% of them had still Albanians surnames even when they migrated North to Lika in Croatia, far from the "core" of the area.
    Vlachs genetics can be sought in the Serbian population(Croatia, Bosnia) and part of that genetics is certainly Vlachs origin but not all. As far as Croatian genetics of Dalmatia is concerned, there is very little Vlachs genetics because in this area I2a is 60-70% +R1a and Vlachs are not just I2a, they have mixed genetics.


    Slavic became lingua franca and the fact that within Albania Vlachs have strangely elevated levels of I2a and R1a makes you wonder, were they really Slavs before that became Vlachs/shepherds?
    Yes they are, precisely I2a branch I-S17250 proves migration from White Croatia (historical records that talk about that) there are also and R1a branches that exist in Poland. For final proof we need to wait for archaeogenetic data until then we have use live genetics and archeological data(links between Croatian, Dalmatian, Bosnian and Slovenian, Czech, Slovak archeological finds)

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