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Thread: I2 in Peloponnesus, Greece. Origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Are you a member of the Serbian forum(because they too like to use such argumentation)?

    "Appearances change, culture changes, etc." it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone, here we can add and language, names, last names, dialects, music, etc.

    As far as R1a is concerned there are no drastic jumps behind Dinaric Alps. R1a is the second haplotype in Dalmatia, out of 220 people 120 have I2a while 42 people have R1a, in northwestern Croatia out of 220 people R1a has 64 people.

    Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?! Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE.

    In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.

    During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

    The "Vlach" or "Romanian" traditional system of counting sheep in pairs do (two), pato (four), šasto (six), šopći (eight), zeći (ten) has been preserved in Velebit, Bukovica, Dalmatian Zagora, and Ćićarija until today.[37][41][42]

    Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").[63]According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis

    1828 writing by Colonel Ivan Murgić probably had the last original testimony of Lika-Primorje Bunjevci about their traditional identity, in which they said to be "We are hardworking brothers Bunjevci", while regarding (Catholic) confession always as "I am true Bunjevac".[14] A more recent 1980 testimony from Baja, Hungary considered they came from Albania.[15]



    Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence

    Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    The only thing that proves migration of someone in some area is archeogenetics, archeology, genetics and then comes written records. Linguistics does not prove origin of someone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian

    Therefore it is a dialect of the original Slavic language and has no connection with original Vlachs(which were not originally Slavs). Whether with later assimilation that dialect adopted in Vlachs groups which later spread through migrations in the Turkish era that's another matter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...ory_of_Croatia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...nd_Herzegovina
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojkanje

    Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian), since they're singing "from the throat"
    It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post

    Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?! Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE.

    In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.

    During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

    The "Vlach" or "Romanian" traditional system of counting sheep in pairs do (two), pato (four), šasto (six), šopći (eight), zeći (ten) has been preserved in Velebit, Bukovica, Dalmatian Zagora, and Ćićarija until today.[37][41][42]

    Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").[63]According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis

    1828 writing by Colonel Ivan Murgić probably had the last original testimony of Lika-Primorje Bunjevci about their traditional identity, in which they said to be "We are hardworking brothers Bunjevci", while regarding (Catholic) confession always as "I am true Bunjevac".[14] A more recent 1980 testimony from Baja, Hungary considered they came from Albania.[15]



    Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence

    Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...ory_of_Croatia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...nd_Herzegovina
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojkanje

    Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian), since they're singing "from the throat"
    It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".
    Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect. You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this. You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe.

    Sure I2a-Y3120 is high in some mountainous regions, but almost all of them fall under one clade which had a common ancestor that conveniently dates back to the Slavic migrations. For your claim to be true we would expect higher diversity of clades and older clades, plus they would have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe.

    As for the cities, you do realise that populations aren't static and that they move around? Majority of modern day inhabitants are likely to be descendants of migrants who migrated into the city rather recently from nearby villages. You're acting as if the inhabitants of these cities have been there since the Roman period.

    Please don't tell me that you seriously believe that South Slavic Balkan influence is a result of I2a. A group can be influenced by another population and still not receive genetic input from them, the Ottoman Turkish influence in modern day Albanians is an example of this. That's not to say that South Slavs don't have Balkan input, they do, but consensus shows that it's primarily maternal.

    Anyways, It's very clear that I-Y3120 in the Balkans is a result of the Slavic migrations. If you have any genetic evidence suggesting otherwise post it.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect.
    Thousands of villages of coincidence makes sense to you and 2 different waves of different people migrating at different times doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this.
    This is the question that I ask you and others that make conclusive statements, and you actually ask this back to me?

    Since you're having difficulties understanding my position, do you think these Slavs had a pact that 1 tribe will occupy only certain regions while the others will occupy others, on top of that 1 tribe will follow their farming lifestyle while the other will continue to be shepherds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe.
    How different were the Serboi from each other according to you?

    Remember, Bulgars were not Slavs but adopted Slavic and so did their underlings and slaves. So who was what? That's a question DNA tests cannot answer unless we start having massive ancient samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Sure I2a-Y3120 is high in some mountainous regions, but almost all of them fall under one clade which had a common ancestor that conveniently dates back to the Slavic migrations.
    That's the other problem you're not getting, that Slavic migration wasn't the only one. It was the last one and the definitive one. That period is known as the Barbarian Invasions not Slavic Migration/Invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    For your claim to be true we would expect higher diversity of clades and older clades, plus they would have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe.
    What you have to finally understand is that I'm the only one not making claims, but giving food for thought so that you consider your claims more carefully.

    Why would they have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe? A former minor clade being displaced is illogical?

    I think the CTS10228* in France is already surprising enough that we have it, not to mention I2a-Disles.

    CTS10228 could have changed locations 13 times, where the 11th time was from Pannonia to Dacia (Celts/Germans), 12th time was from Dacia to the Dnieper-Carpathian area (extremely close to Dacia), and the 13th and final time was when they left for the Balkans and the clade was finally numerous enough to leave people behind which would today show us the high variance. Don't you think this has happened to many clades, especially minor ones that are more likely to disappear?

    Thus, my answer that there's inconclusive evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    As for the cities, you do realise that populations aren't static and that they move around? Majority of modern day inhabitants are likely to be descendants of migrants who migrated into the city rather recently from nearby villages. You're acting as if the inhabitants of these cities have been there since the Roman period.
    Again, this is what I should be telling you. Random and natural migrations within the same area mix populations up over time and make the world more and more heterogenous, but the division was so extreme that we still have considerably homogenous regions even nowadays in the Balkans, where I2a dominates in some while R1a in others, despite 1500 years of shuffling.

    During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

    Do you think it's another coincidence that Zumberak has the lowest I2a % in Croatia and then we COINCIDENTALLY have this so-called Orthodox migration who could have brought the levels up to 17% nowadays? It could have been 0-3% and you would have called this another of the thousands examples of founder effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Please don't tell me that you seriously believe that South Slavic Balkan influence is a result of I2a. A group can be influenced by another population and still not receive genetic input from them, the Ottoman Turkish influence in modern day Albanians is an example of this. That's not to say that South Slavs don't have Balkan input, they do, but consensus shows that it's primarily maternal.
    I'm not sure I really understand what you're asking. You mean that I believe I2a is the source of what we call today Proto-Balkan autosomal admixture? If that's your question, my answer is "Not at all". Modern Proto-Balkan admixture found in Albanians and Greeks mostly is a local Southern Balkan admix, and we don't know the situation of North-East Balkan during late Iron Age or later.

    Like I always say, don't expect Pannonians and Dacians to completely overlap with Albanians and Greeks. That is absurd!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Anyways, It's very clear that I-Y3120 in the Balkans is a result of the Slavic migrations. If you have any genetic evidence suggesting otherwise post it.
    It's also clear that your J1 is a result of Ottoman Sipahis. "Because who else besides the Ottomans came to Balkans for so long?" Case closed, screw Byzantines moving Anatolians, Armenians, Georgians, and other people around. Screw Romans settling Syrian archers in the Northern Balkans and Moesia, screw Phoenicians, and so on.

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    Nik
    Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?!
    Kelmendasi you explained why this is so, "Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect. You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this. You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe."
    I would add that there are more Slavic and Croatian waves of migration to Roman Dalmatia, we do not know(at that time) their tribal differences, relationships, etc. We will know this more precisely in the future.

    Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE
    As I said, we have more waves of migration, in Dalmatia R1a(Croats) is the second haplotype in the population not much different(in carriers) than in northwestern Croatia but I2a is strong and why it is so we will see in the future when we find out the exact migrations of these peoples.

    In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.
    Part of Croatia was under Turks and that southern part of Croatia was catholic so people were mixing with each other because no one became Catholic at that time because of Turkish war with Croats and Hungarians etc. In fact, Croats in Dalmatia and Bosnia have preserved genetics that exist before Turkish time.
    There are also Dalmatian islands who are also isolated so that probably affected to strong I2a. If someone migrates from Herzegiovina wher I2a is up to 70% to the Dalmatian islands and whose inhabitants mix among themselves then and this affects the overall genetic picture of Dalmatia. Perhaps at that time R1a was strong in northwestern Dalmatia as the islands are inhabited from eastern Dalmatia and Herzegovina where is I2a strong?

    As I say when we find out genetically local Balkan migration then we will know more. Until then we can speculate but it is not proof.


    During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians
    Yes, and what interests you?





    According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis
    You have genetic data and prove those claims, until then this is a fairy tale. Although it is certain that this group also has and Vlachs origin, but how many percent we do not know and therefore we cannot draw conclusions concerning the whole group of Bunjevci or someone else.

    Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence
    You do not understand that this I2a proves Croatian migration to the Balkans. We do not know relations at that time and which Croatian tribes came to which area, certain is that majority of Croats brought I2a I-S17250 to Dalmatia, to them they were probably R1a Croatian or Slavic tribes (from Slovenia to northwestern Dalmatia).
    At this point this is a guess, when we find out about local Balkan migration then we will be smarter.

    If you claim something concrete then prove it with genetic data ie. migration in that area.

    Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").
    Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.

    Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian),
    since they're singing "from the throat"
    It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".
    I do not discuss things that have nothing to do with the origin of people.

    That is why i asked you if you are from a Serbian forum because they also prove the origin of someone on that basis, once again it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone so it is useless to discuss it.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 15-10-19 at 17:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Thousands of villages of coincidence makes sense to you and 2 different waves of different people migrating at different times doesn't?


    This is the question that I ask you and others that make conclusive statements, and you actually ask this back to me?

    Since you're having difficulties understanding my position, do you think these Slavs had a pact that 1 tribe will occupy only certain regions while the others will occupy others, on top of that 1 tribe will follow their farming lifestyle while the other will continue to be shepherds?


    How different were the Serboi from each other according to you?

    Remember, Bulgars were not Slavs but adopted Slavic and so did their underlings and slaves. So who was what? That's a question DNA tests cannot answer unless we start having massive ancient samples.


    That's the other problem you're not getting, that Slavic migration wasn't the only one. It was the last one and the definitive one. That period is known as the Barbarian Invasions not Slavic Migration/Invasion.


    What you have to finally understand is that I'm the only one not making claims, but giving food for thought so that you consider your claims more carefully.

    Why would they have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe? A former minor clade being displaced is illogical?

    I think the CTS10228* in France is already surprising enough that we have it, not to mention I2a-Disles.

    CTS10228 could have changed locations 13 times, where the 11th time was from Pannonia to Dacia (Celts/Germans), 12th time was from Dacia to the Dnieper-Carpathian area (extremely close to Dacia), and the 13th and final time was when they left for the Balkans and the clade was finally numerous enough to leave people behind which would today show us the high variance. Don't you think this has happened to many clades, especially minor ones that are more likely to disappear?

    Thus, my answer that there's inconclusive evidence.


    Again, this is what I should be telling you. Random and natural migrations within the same area mix populations up over time and make the world more and more heterogenous, but the division was so extreme that we still have considerably homogenous regions even nowadays in the Balkans, where I2a dominates in some while R1a in others, despite 1500 years of shuffling.

    During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

    Do you think it's another coincidence that Zumberak has the lowest I2a % in Croatia and then we COINCIDENTALLY have this so-called Orthodox migration who could have brought the levels up to 17% nowadays? It could have been 0-3% and you would have called this another of the thousands examples of founder effect.


    I'm not sure I really understand what you're asking. You mean that I believe I2a is the source of what we call today Proto-Balkan autosomal admixture? If that's your question, my answer is "Not at all". Modern Proto-Balkan admixture found in Albanians and Greeks mostly is a local Southern Balkan admix, and we don't know the situation of North-East Balkan during late Iron Age or later.

    Like I always say, don't expect Pannonians and Dacians to completely overlap with Albanians and Greeks. That is absurd!


    It's also clear that your J1 is a result of Ottoman Sipahis. "Because who else besides the Ottomans came to Balkans for so long?" Case closed, screw Byzantines moving Anatolians, Armenians, Georgians, and other people around. Screw Romans settling Syrian archers in the Northern Balkans and Moesia, screw Phoenicians, and so on.
    Provide genetic evidence that would suggest I-Y3120 came with various different migrations, even pre-slavic ones.

    I don't understand why you're bringing up the Serboi, elaborate if you can. The Serboi were a tribe from the Caucasus and likely spoke an Iranic language, though I do know that there are theories suggesting that the Medieval Serb (prior to migration into the Balkans) elite was originally Iranic speaking.

    It was actually the Bulgar elite which was originally Turkic speaking, the vast majority of the population was of Slavic origin and spoke an early version of Bulgaro-Macedonian. These Slavs came during the 6th Century and represented the first phase of the Slavic migration. The later phases (7th Century) is when the ancestors of the Serbs and Croats arrived. Historians such as Zlatarski have argued that the Sklavenoi were ancestral to Serbo-Croats whilst the Antes were ancestral to Bulgaro-Macedonians.

    If they have brother clades in Western and Central Europe then a recent Western origin is likely. That's why it's important.

    The French sample is from Bas-Rhin, a region which has a high German population. Chances are that he has a German ancestor or is German.

    The connection between I2a-CTS10228 and I2a-L621 is over 6,000 years old, pretty distant. Anyways I'm not saying that I-CTS10228 doesn't have Western origin, I have said the opposite on multiple occasions.

    You're implying that I believe I-Y3120 is a result of the Slavic migration because Slavs remained in the Balkans for the longest, but I'm not. I base it on genetic evidence that coincides rather perfectly with historical data. You're just being extra. With J1 it's the same thing, we can tell who brought it by subclades and who falls within them.

    Again, provide evidence which would suggest that it came with other migrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I do not discuss things that have nothing to do with the origin of people.
    Culture or songs alone do not confirm the origin of a people, but 100 little facts like music, speech, dress, DNA, appearance, etc. altogether do give an almost clear picture of a group's origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    That is why i asked you if you are from a Serbian forum because they also prove the origin of someone on that basis, once again it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone so it is useless to discuss it.
    You think I care about your petty South Slavic differences among each other that I get involved in Serbian forums? I don't speak Serbian nor do I care about your internal problems.

    You're all the same to me but if I had to choose for political reasons I choose Croats over Serbs and Bosniaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Provide genetic evidence that would suggest I-Y3120 came with various different migrations, even pre-slavic ones.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    If they have brother clades in Western and Central Europe then a recent Western origin is likely. That's why it's important.
    If they find it, great. If they don't, it doesn't disprove anything.

    Besides, what does origin mean to you? Which period of time? In 400BC it could have been between France and Germany, 200BC in Pannonia, and 400 AD in the Carpathians. So which region is the origin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You're implying that I believe I-Y3120 is a result of the Slavic migration because Slavs remained in the Balkans for the longest, but I'm not. I base it on genetic evidence that coincides rather perfectly with historical data. You're just being extra.
    You can't be shallow with genetics and origin of people. "It's Slavic because happened to migrate during the period from 200 BC to 700 AD." Wow, really? What did the Celts, Goths, Dacians, Bastarnae, Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc. do? Stay in one place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    With J1 it's the same thing, we can tell who brought it by subclades and who falls within them.
    Really? So, who brought J1-P58 to the Balkans specifically?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Again, provide evidence which would suggest that it came with other migrants.
    Again, why would I undertake such a ridiculous and impossible mission?

    Life and history have proven to be mysterious. I will refrain from going around and making absurd claims about a certain clade, especially when I have little knowledge of history, archaeology, and anthropology. Genetists that make such statements must have extensive knowledge or help from a real professional to be able to come with answers. Otherwise, they should just say "Ok, this is J1-P58. It's found here, here, and here. Cheers!".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Why?


    If they find it, great. If they don't, it doesn't disprove anything.

    Besides, what does origin mean to you? Which period of time? In 400BC it could have been between France and Germany, 200BC in Pannonia, and 400 AD in the Carpathians. So which region is the origin?


    You can't be shallow with genetics and origin of people. "It's Slavic because happened to migrate during the period from 200 BC to 700 AD." Wow, really? What did the Celts, Goths, Dacians, Bastarnae, Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc. do? Stay in one place?


    Really? So, who brought J1-P58 to the Balkans specifically?


    Again, why would I undertake such a ridiculous and impossible mission?

    Life and history have proven to be mysterious. I will refrain from going around and making absurd claims about a certain clade, especially when I have little knowledge of history, archaeology, and anthropology. Genetists that make such statements must have extensive knowledge or help from a real professional to be able to come with answers. Otherwise, they should just say "Ok, this is J1-P58. It's found here, here, and here. Cheers!".
    Look man, I'm telling you what the consensus is behind a specific clade. If you have a problem with this then that's your problem, do your own research and come to your own conclusions. If you just want to provide "food for thought" then at least provide evidence which coincides with what we know based on genetics and history so that I consider what you're saying, right now I'm not even considering it.

    Sure, we have still got quite a bit to learn, but some things are more certain than others. If we were to base things on uncertainties and take into account every little detail then we wouldn't make much progress at all. It also isn't based on "It's found here, here and here", it's based on a range of things including diversity, TMRCA and aDNA. Don't ignore everything else.

    As for J-P58, that's kinda irrelevant but oh well. Long story short, it depends on subclades. Majority of P58 in Albanians comes under P58>YSC234, a clade which took part in the ethnogensis of Proto-Semitic speakers. All the clades (ZS241, Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) show clear association to the Central Semitic branch which is comprised of the Canaanite, Aramaic, Arabic and some extinct branches. ZS241 and L829 are linked to Canaanite, ZS241 mainly with Jews but possibly also Phoenicians whilst L829 is most certainly linked to the Phoenicians. FGC11 today is the dominant clade among Arabs, though it has Levantine origin and was found in a Bronze Age sample from Lebanon. To sum it all up, it arrived with groups that were originally Semitic speakers, the clades arrived in post-Bronze Age times (likely between Late Bronze Age and Roman period).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    .................

    There is no diversity within CTS10228. The clade that every tested I2a1b belongs is Y3120. Y3120 only descend from one man in 100BC. There is a 1700 year gap between CTS10228 and Y3120. The Frenchman likely forms his own clade under CTS10228 that may shed light to where CTS10228 was, but certainly not where Y3120 was.

    There is simply no way what so ever for Y3120 to be descended from Dacians, Getae, Thracians, Pannonians and Slavs all when the survivor that spread the ENTIRETY of it was only born around 100BC some time. The formation age of Y3120 is NOT the tmrca(where all men draw the most distant ancestor). There is simply no way for this clade to be descended from all these far older cultures, and somehow only lived in the late Iron Age.

    As Kelmendasi stated, there should be clades of CTS10228 that are brother clades to Y3120, found in Central Europe. Why? because thats where Celts and Germanics were located. There needs to be clades bridging the gap to satisfy the scenario you propose. We need brother clades of I2a1b-CTS10228 in Dacians, Thracians, Pannonian, Getae, Celts etc. There aren't any. Even if we discover them, it won't change the fact that Y3120 survived and spread mostly with Slavs. and possibly(only minimally) with East Germanics, Bulgars, Avars, Huns.

    You're ignoring age of branches, and the diversity of their descendant clades when making your assumption. Also, taking a nab at Kelmendasi for having J1 and saying it is related to Ottomans is nonsensical. The TMRCA of his J1-P58 is over 8500 years. He also doesn't share any matches with J1 in the middle east for probably more than 3000 years. So you connecting it to Ottomans to illustrate your point makes little sense. His line has thousands of years to develop and disperse. This is not the case for Y3120, whose descendants come from one man no more than 2100 years. This is specifically why I told you we need ancient samples to push the TMRCA of Y3120 back further for your story to work.

    I2a1b has a brother clade in I2a1a which was surely found in Celts. Keep in mind the distance between these 2 western I2a1a and I2a1b is almost 19 thousand years. There is no relation what so ever in a reasonable historical time frame for you to make comparison with Disles.

    They can tell the difference between brother clades because theoretically each should be negative for the related brothers branch. Y3120 follows a very linear progression. When Kelmendasi said majority in the Dinaric Alps belong to one clade, he literally is telling you based on the evidence they actually all bottlenecked from 1 guy in the area. Y3120/M458/Z280 are all the main 3 uniting Slavs. Take away Y3120, L1029 and even some Z280 who the hell would they even descend from?

    He is right to ask for your evidence but you don't have any genetic finds proving it. Just historical accounts, phenotypes, and culture. That is not evidence, and often times can misconstrue the reality. Which is why we need archaeogenetics. If we find ancient samples pushing the age of Y3120 further in time we can explore these possibilities. Also, there are only 2 descendants of Y3120, the small and rare Greek/Jewish branch, and the young and huge branch which is near entirely Slavic.

    My case is also a rare scenario like the Greek branch. However the Albanian ancestor of this haplotype is 1200ybp. Mostly from Diber on both sides, and now its starting to develop sub-clusters in Tosks. Given its current TMRCA and restriction to East Albania/West Macedonia. The likely scenario is the earliest settlement of of Slavic tribes around the later Proto-Albanian phase, likely absorbed it and spread exclusively with Albanians then on. Maybe it was a Romanized Slav, or as you said one time a Goth. However we would need a pre-dibra cluster among Albanians, or have the TMRCA pushed back further in time prior to the migration. Then we can make some of those possible associations. However right now theres almost 1000 years between the basal L1029 ancestor and my Albanian haplotype. Given what we know at the moment, Proto-Slavs are the best bet. Also they were not all warlike as you claim. Some around Albania and Greece HELPED the Byzantines against their warlike brethren.

    As far as Sardinia, you are forgetting the Byzantines could have brought assimilated Slavic lineages. Also, there was a Slavic led Taifa from the Balaeric Islands. He led a unsuccessful campaign against Sardinia. He also hired many Slavic mercenaries and guess where they ruled for 1-2 years? Cagliari...exactly where these Slavic lineages showed up.

    There is really no way for you to tell whether the impact was Vandals, Goths, Byzantine Romans, Slavs without first having actual Vandal/Goth/Byzantine Roman remains that are positive for Y3120 or any of the R1a clades in question. I am sure they will show up but it will be from cross assimilation and not root. So far all medieval Slavic samples are R1a/Y3120. Even the Viking samples with Y3120 and L1029(however mixed they may be) were "Polish like" genetically. Sure this was 9th century and later. Poles have some Germanic and Scandinavian admixtures but that shouldn't change what the results showed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muj%C4...C4%80mir%C4%AB

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_D%C3%A9nia

    Also, the study I referenced from the last page will put a nail in the coffin to any further arguments. It will be the first study of its kind incorporating all disciplines. Over 6000 graves spanning 400-900CE in Central and East Europe.

    https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

    “The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”

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    Nik
    Culture or songs alone do not confirm the origin of a people, but 100 little facts like music, speech, dress, DNA, appearance, etc. altogether do give an almost clear picture of a group's origin.
    Yes, in the Turkish period and earlier exist migrations from Greece to Slovenia etc and it is certain that Croatian population also receives influences from these areas but they still have mostly Slavic genetics i.e. different origin than peoples from Greece, Albania etc. That is why i am saying it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone.

    You think I care about your petty South Slavic differences among each other that I get involved in Serbian forums? I don't speak Serbian nor do I care about your internal problems.
    You have the same arguments as Serbs that was valid in the 19th and the early 20th century, I was a little worried about you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There is no diversity within CTS10228. The clade that every tested I2a1b belongs is Y3120. Y3120 only descend from one man in 100BC. There is a 1700 year gap between CTS10228 and Y3120. The Frenchman likely forms his own clade under CTS10228 that may shed light to where CTS10228 was, but certainly not where Y3120 was.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There is simply no way what so ever for Y3120 to be descended from Dacians, Getae, Thracians, Pannonians and Slavs all when the survivor that spread the ENTIRETY of it was only born around 100BC some time. The formation age of Y3120 is NOT the tmrca(where all men draw the most distant ancestor). There is simply no way for this clade to be descended from all these far older cultures, and somehow only lived in the late Iron Age.
    Are you sure you're talking to me? Are you even reading what I'm saying? Why would you answer that Y3120 couldn't have descended from Dacians, Getae, Pannonian, or Slav? I really don't get your argument here. So unnecessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    As Kelmendasi stated, there should be clades of CTS10228 that are brother clades to Y3120, found in Central Europe. Why? because thats where Celts and Germanics were located.
    Maybe there are, maybe they all died. Celts were also located in Pannonia, Carpathians, and Goths were also in Crimea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There needs to be clades bridging the gap to satisfy the scenario you propose. We need brother clades of I2a1b-CTS10228 in Dacians, Thracians, Pannonian, Getae, Celts etc. There aren't any. Even if we discover them, it won't change the fact that Y3120 survived and spread mostly with Slavs. and possibly(only minimally) with East Germanics, Bulgars, Avars, Huns.
    I'm not proposing scenarios, I'm ridiculing the confidence you all show with this theory that "it spread with Slavs".

    Can you disprove the version that maybe Y3120 was running away from Slavs? Can you disprove that it was absorbed much later by Slavs? Can you disprove that they were captured Goths, Celts, or Scythians, Romanized Dacians forced to fight for them like the Huns did with almost everyone?

    Now that is the only thing I'm proposing, to open the mind and learn some more history. Slavs weren't the exclusive people making history in those years. Were all Italic people Roman? No, but it's been 2000 years that they are. Should we call every single clade in Italy Roman? So why simplify the origin of Y3120 like we do by calling every East European a Slav/Russian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Also, taking a nab at Kelmendasi for having J1 and saying it is related to Ottomans is nonsensical. The TMRCA of his J1-P58 is over 8500 years. He also doesn't share any matches with J1 in the middle east for probably more than 3000 years. So you connecting it to Ottomans to illustrate your point makes little sense. His line has thousands of years to develop and disperse. This is not the case for Y3120, whose descendants come from one man no more than 2100 years. This is specifically why I told you we need ancient samples to push the TMRCA of Y3120 back further for your story to work.
    I can't believe you actually thought I was being serious with the "Ottoman Sipahis" sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    They can tell the difference between brother clades because theoretically each should be negative for the related brothers branch. Y3120 follows a very linear progression. When Kelmendasi said majority in the Dinaric Alps belong to one clade, he literally is telling you based on the evidence they actually all bottlenecked from 1 guy in the area. Y3120/M458/Z280 are all the main 3 uniting Slavs. Take away Y3120, L1029 and even some Z280 who the hell would they even descend from?
    Unnecessary lesson. If we knew each other, I'd say even offensive.

    As for Slavs, you have to open your eyes that they were a minority in Eastern Europe. Germans, Daco-Thracians, Scythians and Sarmatians were some of the most numerous tribes in antiquity. I didn't count Celts since they moved East later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    He is right to ask for your evidence but you don't have any genetic finds proving it. Just historical accounts, phenotypes, and culture. That is not evidence, and often times can misconstrue the reality. Which is why we need archaeogenetics. If we find ancient samples pushing the age of Y3120 further in time we can explore these possibilities. Also, there are only 2 descendants of Y3120, the small and rare Greek/Jewish branch, and the young and huge branch which is near entirely Slavic.
    I don't use my evidence to come up with conclusive statements like you 2, I use them to question these false statements that can only be verified with ancient DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    My case is also a rare scenario like the Greek branch. However the Albanian ancestor of this haplotype is 1200ybp. Mostly from Diber on both sides, and now its starting to develop sub-clusters in Tosks. Given its current TMRCA and restriction to East Albania/West Macedonia. The likely scenario is the earliest settlement of of Slavic tribes around the later Proto-Albanian phase, likely absorbed it and spread exclusively with Albanians then on. Maybe it was a Romanized Slav, or as you said one time a Goth. However we would need a pre-dibra cluster among Albanians, or have the TMRCA pushed back further in time prior to the migration. Then we can make some of those possible associations. However right now theres almost 1000 years between the basal L1029 ancestor and my Albanian haplotype. Given what we know at the moment, Proto-Slavs are the best bet. Also they were not all warlike as you claim. Some around Albania and Greece HELPED the Byzantines against their warlike brethren.
    Actually we don't know anything about Proto-Slavs, just theories based on findings that could belong to any given tribe in that area. We know so much more of Dacians, Getae, and Scythians and archaeologist cannot pinpoint that a certain settlement belonged to a specific tribe based on findings. Tribes living in vicinity were pretty much the same. Now how would you know that a discovered settlement in Dnieper was Slavic or Scythian? Answer is you can't, but Poles and Russians will jump into theories immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    As far as Sardinia, you are forgetting the Byzantines could have brought assimilated Slavic lineages. Also, there was a Slavic led Taifa from the Balaeric Islands. He led a unsuccessful campaign against Sardinia. He also hired many Slavic mercenaries and guess where they ruled for 1-2 years? Cagliari...exactly where these Slavic lineages showed up.
    Fair enough. I hope you use the same attitude of questioning and considering alternatives with the Y3120 case as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    There is really no way for you to tell whether the impact was Vandals, Goths, Byzantine Romans, Slavs without first having actual Vandal/Goth/Byzantine Roman remains that are positive for Y3120 or any of the R1a clades in question.
    Now we're talking. Completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Also, the study I referenced from the last page will put a nail in the coffin to any further arguments. It will be the first study of its kind incorporating all disciplines. Over 6000 graves spanning 400-900CE in Central and East Europe.

    https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

    “The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”
    Looking forward to this, although I believe they're wasting 10 million Euros on the least interesting region of Europe and specifically during the Middle Ages. For the sake of I2a I wish for ancient tombs in these regions rather than Medieval.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Yes, in the Turkish period and earlier exist migrations from Greece to Slovenia etc and it is certain that Croatian population also receives influences from these areas but they still have mostly Slavic genetics i.e. different origin than peoples from Greece, Albania etc. That is why i am saying it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone.


    You have the same arguments as Serbs that was valid in the 19th and the early 20th century, I was a little worried about you.
    Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.
    Vlachs migrations from that area(Albania, Greece, Macedonia, southern Serbia, Montenegro, probably Bulgaria) to Croatia and beyond. Genetics will say more specifically(from which area) in the future.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 15-10-19 at 17:15.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jesus Guy!
    Listen ALBanac of the internet studies, let me give you an advice, You are too emotional. So much passion cause your narrative is challenged? As if you are serving an agenda.
    Then again it could be the standard american diet full of phytoestrogens and insulin spiking corn fructose. If that's the case you should restore your manhood with a Keto diet.
    NOw, i Understand that arguments based on logic, deduction, paleodemographcis(the preposterous argument that in an era that the whole European populations declined, one in the midst and epicenter of the population movements truculence and raids, not only didnt but it experienced a million fold increase is too ..sweet not to mention it), archaeology,geography etc wont impact you(how could they) so i will repeat the same original questions again.

    Instead of yapping your yap emotionally with armchair psychoanalysis, how about you put your Albanian foot where your Albanian mouth is and show me the evidence that argue your case.
    With reputable peer reviewed studies.
    REmember your claims:

    a) ....that the haplogroups found in Greece are of the clades you claim

    b) ....that they form 30 to 50% of the lineages found in Greece
    (we must include this new claims too)
    b1)....that of those clades the overwhelming majority are of the CTS10228 substrata

    [good luck with the aboves, cause you know full well that the phylogenetic studies done on greeks do not go into those depths]
    [..which shows how disingenuous you are. The absolute confidence in your narrative before even the data are in and that while you make appeals to science]

    b2)....that men of the CTS10228 trace their origin in a single ancestor from 100bc
    c)...that they arrived with the Slavic migrations.
    d)...that all the above form the scientific consensus and settled science.

    Instead of pulling a hissy fit why dont you try to civilly answered them?
    How difficult can it be if they are based on ''science and the scientific consensus'' ?
    There should be hundreds of papers on the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Jesus Guy!
    Listen ALBanac of the internet studies, let me give you an advice, You are too emotional. So much passion cause your narrative is challenged? As if you are serving an agenda.
    Then again it could be the standard american diet full of phytoestrogens and insulin spiking corn fructose. If that's the case you should restore your manhood with a Keto diet.
    Albania doesn't even have McDonald's nor does it need it and is less affected than Greece with the so-called American diet. Remember you're the most obese country in Europe.

    Keto diet is overestimated as carbs, fats, and protein are equally important for your metabolism and well being in general, in addition to the horrible side effect of hair loss that keto might cause within 3-6 months.

    Now back on topic vlachos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    NOw, i Understand that arguments based on logic, deduction, paleodemographcis(the preposterous argument that in an era that the whole European populations declined, one in the midst and epicenter of the population movements truculence and raids, not only didnt but it experienced a million fold increase is too ..sweet not to mention it), archaeology,geography etc wont impact you(how could they) so i will repeat the same original questions again.

    Instead of yapping your yap emotionally with armchair psychoanalysis, how about you put your Albanian foot where your Albanian mouth is and show me the evidence that argue your case.
    With reputable peer reviewed studies.
    REmember your claims:

    a) ....that the haplogroups found in Greece are of the clades you claim

    b) ....that they form 30 to 50% of the lineages found in Greece
    (we must include this new claims too)
    b1)....that of those clades the overwhelming majority are of the CTS10228 substrata

    [good luck with the aboves, cause you know full well that the phylogenetic studies done on greeks do not go into those depths]
    [..which shows how disingenuous you are. The absolute confidence in your narrative before even the data are in and that while you make appeals to science]

    b2)....that men of the CTS10228 trace their origin in a single ancestor from 100bc
    c)...that they arrived with the Slavic migrations.
    d)...that all the above form the scientific consensus and settled science.
    CTS10228 and R1a can go up to 40% in the Northern regions, and they're recent arrivals not your prophetic Ancient Greeks. They weren't even Greeks to be begin with in antiquity.

    Do your own research, we're not Germany or US to feed you with info while all you do is talk and complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Instead of pulling a hissy fit why dont you try to civilly answered them?
    How difficult can it be if they are based on ''science and the scientific consensus'' ?
    There should be hundreds of papers on the issue.
    It's not the duty of the knowledgeable to educate the ignorant. It's an option, but maybe in a parallel universe.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=Kelmendasi;587470]I don't understand why you lot are so insecure when it comes to having Slavic DNA, complexes much....

    The reason why I2a-Y3120 is so high in modern day South Slavs is because of founder effects, simply put they had far more male offspring than the others.
    All The South Slavs sub groups and Balkan groups have different ratios of R1a to I2, even those in very close proximity.
    They ranges are from 1 to 9 and 1 to 7 to 3 to 1!
    How does that corresponds with the theory of a recent common origin from a specific isolated region?
    Not very well.

    Frequency means literally nothing.
    The relative uniformity of the demographic profiles of regions
    and the correspondence of genetics to historical migrations, beg to differ.

    Fact is that CTS10228 and Y3120 don't reach high diversity in the Balkans, but they do in Eastern Europe.
    That's a claim. A claim that will remain a claim until it can be substantiated with the respective results from scientifically gathered samples and proper analyses.
    These are the questions that you need to answer:
    Is there EVEN a single peer reviewed population study in the Balkans that test for the markers? No?
    Can increased or decreased diversity of a marker, be explained/influenced by other factors?

    Plus the TMRCA fits with Slavic expansion.
    That's another claim.
    The reported TMRCA is based on what?
    How many y-dna dating methods that yield wildly different ranges of timelines for the same samples are there?
    What the ranges of results? -/+ 20-40%? or several folds differentiation?

    The problem is that the Slavic expansion can be explained only by the specific timeline of the methodology that made the above claim.Even a 20% differentiation (500 years) could blow this theory out of the water(yet alone a bigger differentiation)


    The argument that the Slavs had no genetic influence because of the mountain ranges in the Balkans is pure nonsense and fantasy
    .
    i ve never made that claim, i ve made the claim that there were hunter gatherers civilizations in the Balkan interior reported by archaeology, that in order for this theory to make sense they must have gone totally extincted, and that before they even they came in contact with other peoples.
    This is evident by how the Slavic culture, language and genetics were able to be spread across the Balkans
    .
    Yes it's called a cultural shift, which is the main way it occurs.
    Bulgarians cluster better with Greeks than other South Slavs, yet alone east Slavs.
    In fact they probably cluster better with South Italians too, than east Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.
    Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
    Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
    The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
    Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
    The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
    I'm familiar with all the psychotic theories that you mention but I had never heard of the "child harvesting" one? hahahahaha

    Please enlighten me. What do you even mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
    Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
    The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
    Zip it you ubiquitous taint.

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    [QUOTE=Parapolitikos;587657]
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    I don't understand why you lot are so insecure when it comes to having Slavic DNA, complexes much....


    All The South Slavs sub groups and Balkan groups have different ratios of R1a to I2, even those in very close proximity.
    They ranges are from 1 to 9 and 1 to 7 to 3 to 1!
    How does that corresponds with the theory of a recent common origin from a specific isolated region?
    Not very well.


    The relative uniformity of the demographic profiles of regions
    and the correspondence of genetics to historical migrations, beg to differ.


    That's a claim. A claim that will remain a claim until it can be substantiated with the respective results from scientifically gathered samples and proper analyses.
    These are the questions that you need to answer:
    Is there EVEN a single peer reviewed population study in the Balkans that test for the markers? No?
    Can increased or decreased diversity of a marker, be explained/influenced by other factors?


    That's another claim.
    The reported TMRCA is based on what?
    How many y-dna dating methods that yield wildly different ranges of timelines for the same samples are there?
    What the ranges of results? -/+ 20-40%? or several folds differentiation?

    The problem is that the Slavic expansion can be explained only by the specific timeline of the methodology that made the above claim.Even a 20% differentiation (500 years) could blow this theory out of the water(yet alone a bigger differentiation)


    .
    i ve never made that claim, i ve made the claim that there were hunter gatherers civilizations in the Balkan interior reported by archaeology, that in order for this theory to make sense they must have gone totally extincted, and that before they even they came in contact with other peoples.
    .
    Yes it's called a cultural shift, which is the main way it occurs.
    Bulgarians cluster better with Greeks than other South Slavs, yet alone east Slavs.
    In fact they probably cluster better with South Italians too, than east Slavs.
    Provide evidence or explain how frequencies and ratios matter, till then, your argument is nonsense.

    I-CTS10228 and Y3120 having highest diversity in Eastern Europe isn't a claim, it's a fact. We have numerous NGS and Big-Y CTS10228+ results that show us how many clades are under CTS10228 and where they are located. The region of Europe which is most diverse is Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine, Poland and Belarus. You bringing up the fact that there isn't a peer reviewed paper on I-CTS10228 is just an excuse you're using, why would we need a paper when NGS results can already tell us these things?

    It's a fact that the TMRCA coincides with the Slavic expansion based on our current results, https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/.

    Support your claim that I-Y3120 is a Balkan HG marker with evidence, you haven't provided any evidence what so ever. We have multiple Balkan HG samples, they were R-V88 and I2a for the most part. The I2a fell under M223 (primarily M223>Z161), none were CTS10228. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778. On the other hand I-CTS10228 has been found in Medieval Poland and Russia, and L621 was found in a SHG sample from Motala.

    Bulgarians still cluster with other South Slavs for the most part, it's only Northern/Mainland Greeks that cluster with Bulgarians and that's because of Slavic input in Greeks as well as Balkan input in Bulgarians.

    Map of P37 branches and their locations (you can use this to see the diversity of CTS10228):

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    The I2a-CTS10228-Y3120 YFull tree is quite Slavic. The anomaly is Y18331, which has zero of the many East European and Balkan non-Jewish Slavs who are CTS10228. Jews were not native to East Europe, and they’re the only East Europeans with the Y18331 branch. It seems to have had a different migration, possibly leaving very early, leaving behind no descendants in today’s East Europe.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
    Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
    The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
    This post screams insecure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Zip it you ubiquitous taint.
    Another emotional out burst from our friend.
    I predict another one buddy brace your self.

    Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
    Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
    Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
    Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
    Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
    Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    This post screams insecure.
    The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
    The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries. Where did you think the Bektashi and Sufi influenced Islam in Albanian came from?
    The Ottoman slavery(only by muslims) is an undeniable historical fact.
    That Albanians were the subcontractors of Ottomans in the Western Balkans, is also an undeniable historical fact.
    Forced islamizations is also known and undeniable historical fact. Catholics and non canonical Christians were forced to Islam under the fear of the sword as ottomans didn't tolerated them(the little that did tolerate other Christians).That's how catholic Albanians and Montenegrins became Muslims, Paulican Christians became the Pomak Muslim, Bosnian church christians became bosniak muslims, Cretan and Cypriot Catholics became the turkocretans and turkocypriots etc etc.


    I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
    You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Another emotional out burst from our friend.
    I predict another one buddy brace your self.

    Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
    Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
    Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
    Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
    Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
    Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.
    You're not counting the Orthodox Albanians that you giftis are trying to absorb for hundreds of years because you need men that can fight.

    What was the population of Greece during the 19th century?

    And which region in Greece are you from?

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