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Thread: I2 in Peloponnesus, Greece. Origins?

  1. #76
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
    The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries.
    True, and we're the population that suffered the child harvesting the most, because it was our young boys they were after not yours. Yours would never make elite soldiers and that feature of ours (together with other mountain Montenegrin, Bosnian, and Serbian tribes) was our doom.

    Greeks were used to do slave work, house chores, tent servants. Even the greatest hellenophile Lord Byron despises you for crying under the Turkish whip.

    Romans made fun of you and your effeminate nature. Byzantines disposed you to Italy and put Albanians in your lands because they needed war recruits not theater clowns and boylovers.

    All the Turkish medics were Greek, attending the wounds of their masters, translating for them, and who knows what your male ancestors they did at night in their master's tents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
    You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.
    What are you doing in a forum where genetics are discussed? Don't you see that 70%+ of Albanians belong to the trio of E-V13, J2b-L283, and R1b, the rest belonging to minor clades like Germanic I1 and I2, Eastern I2a and R1a, and few local J2a and G.

    Where are all these mameluks settled in our lands?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
    Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
    The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
    Problem is that you consider all present-day Greek genetics to be original Greek genetics.

    beginning with the Cycladic civilization on the islands of the Aegean Sea at around 3200 BC,[29] the Minoan civilization in Crete (2700–1500 BC),[28][30] and then the Mycenaean civilization on the mainland (1600–1100 BC).[30] These civilizations possessed writing, the Minoans writing in an undeciphered script known as Linear A, and the Mycenaeans in Linear B, an early form of Greek.
    The end of the Dark Ages is traditionally dated to 776 BC, the year of the first Olympic Games.[34] The Iliad and the Odyssey, the foundational texts of Western literature, are believed to have been composed by Homer in the 7th or 8th centuries BC.
    Original Greek genetics is from that time, and you have to look for branches of Y haplotypes from that time which would have some kind of connection with Greek area. It's as if I would say that Croatian haplotype is E1b V13(balkans branches), but we have assimilated these peoples who are originally Illyrians or Vlachs (Albanians, possibly Vlachs from Bulgaria, Greece etc)

    You need archeogenetic data from Greek area or proof in living genetics if you mean to prove something. You are not presenting any concrete evidence.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
    The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries. Where did you think the Bektashi and Sufi influenced Islam in Albanian came from?
    The Ottoman slavery(only by muslims) is an undeniable historical fact.
    That Albanians were the subcontractors of Ottomans in the Western Balkans, is also an undeniable historical fact.
    Forced islamizations is also known and undeniable historical fact. Catholics and non canonical Christians were forced to Islam under the fear of the sword as ottomans didn't tolerated them(the little that did tolerate other Christians).That's how catholic Albanians and Montenegrins became Muslims, Paulican Christians became the Pomak Muslim, Bosnian church christians became bosniak muslims, Cretan and Cypriot Catholics became the turkocretans and turkocypriots etc etc.


    I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
    You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.
    My guy you're just insecure. You're insecure about your Arvanite/Albanian ancestry so you try to play it off as Albanized Greek.

    The vast majority of Albanians didn't convert because of "fear of the sword" but because of other factors, mainly socio-economic and political. Christians and Jews were forced to pay Jizya, which at times could be extremely high, it was beneficial to convert. This whole "fear of the sword" thing just seems to be Greek propaganda. Provide evidence for "forced conversion" will you?

    Montenegrins weren't Catholic by the way, they were/are Orthodox. The Catholics in Montenegro were mainly centered in the SE and they were in fact ethnic Albanians.

    If Albanian was synonymous with "Muslim" then why were terms such as "Arnaut", "Arvanite" and "Arbanas" used to denote Albanians in an ethnic sense. I'll not deny that a large percentage of Balkan Muslims were ethnic Albanians, but Muslim wasn't synonymous with Albanian.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Another emotional out burst from our friend.
    I predict another one buddy brace your self.

    Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
    Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
    Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
    Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
    Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
    Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.
    The one with emotional outburst is you. Uninformed child. Look up the definition of the term. it is exactly what you are. Stop polluting the thread with your "know it all" nonsense.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    The one with emotional outburst is you. Uninformed child. Look up the definition of the term. it is exactly what you are. Stop polluting the thread with your "know it all" nonsense.
    More histrionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    My guy you're just insecure. You're insecure about your Arvanite/Albanian ancestry so you try to play it off as Albanized Greek.

    The vast majority of Albanians didn't convert because of "fear of the sword" but because of other factors, mainly socio-economic and political. Christians and Jews were forced to pay Jizya, which at times could be extremely high, it was beneficial to convert. This whole "fear of the sword" thing just seems to be Greek propaganda. Provide evidence for "forced conversion" will you?

    Montenegrins weren't Catholic by the way, they were/are Orthodox. The Catholics in Montenegro were mainly centered in the SE and they were in fact ethnic Albanians.

    If Albanian was synonymous with "Muslim" then why were terms such as "Arnaut", "Arvanite" and "Arbanas" used to denote Albanians in an ethnic sense. I'll not deny that a large percentage of Balkan Muslims were ethnic Albanians, but Muslim wasn't synonymous with Albanian.
    What are wrote are historical facts.
    What are you saying? That the barbaric animals that routinely abducted women and children for sex purposes,skinned the prisoners of war alive, institutionalize the stealing of children to become soldiers, and enslave men to become slave soldiers, practice widespread slavery, had moral inhibitions of forcing Islam on it's subjects?
    Yes there were forced islamizations, primarily during the conquests, rebellions, social unrests, even local disputes of Muslims with Christians.
    Once a city was captured, the usual Ottoman practice was to sell the subjects as slaves, especially women and children. Many times were given the choice, slavery or Islam. Many slaves also converted to Islam as a ticked to freedom. Same occurred any time there was a revolt or a rebellion, or a social unrest. Ferocious punitive measures were followed and conversion was one way of saving your life, children, property, honor.
    Just search the aftermath of the sieges of cities or revolts and you ll understand how Muslim communities were created.
    Catholics of Albanian had no choice really, the Papic states were the main threat to Sultan rule in the Adriatic cost, and a constant threat to the empire it self.
    It took the Ottomans 300 years to eventually root out Venetians from the Balkans and Greece. Catholic populations were treated security risks, whereas heretic Christians as paganists.
    Why did you think, thousands of albanocatholics settled in Italy as refugees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    This post screams insecure.
    No, this is what is considered science. If you quote scholars(not Albanian scholars) you will get an infraction and after this an detailed explanation of how the entire intellectual elite of an country(not Albania, ours are in another category), professors, reactors of universities, etc are a bunch of idiots. Meanwhile this kind of posts in stormfront style are tolerated because probably are considered pure science.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    What are wrote are historical facts.
    What are you saying? That the barbaric animals that routinely abducted women and children for sex purposes,skinned the prisoners of war alive, institutionalize the stealing of children to become soldiers, and enslave men to become slave soldiers, practice widespread slavery, had moral inhibitions of forcing Islam on it's subjects?
    Yes there were forced islamizations, primarily during the conquests, rebellions, social unrests, even local disputes of Muslims with Christians.
    Once a city was captured, the usual Ottoman practice was to sell the subjects as slaves, especially women and children. Many times were given the choice, slavery or Islam. Many slaves also converted to Islam as a ticked to freedom. Same occurred any time there was a revolt or a rebellion, or a social unrest. Ferocious punitive measures were followed and conversion was one way of saving your life, children, property, honor.
    Just search the aftermath of the sieges of cities or revolts and you ll understand how Muslim communities were created.
    Catholics of Albanian had no choice really, the Papic states were the main threat to Sultan rule in the Adriatic cost, and a constant threat to the empire it self.
    It took the Ottomans 300 years to eventually root out Venetians from the Balkans and Greece. Catholic populations were treated security risks, whereas heretic Christians as paganists.
    Why did you think, thousands of albanocatholics settled in Italy as refugees?
    Again, provide evidence. Don't just type up your insecurities.

    What do you mean "Catholics of Albania had no choice really"? You do realise it was the Catholic Albanian clans of Northern Albania that had the most autonomy under the Ottoman Empire? They were practically independent

    You should also realise that the majority of Albanian converted to Islam during (and after) the 17th Century, +100 years since the conquest. This by itself makes your claim that they were forced to convert upon conquest lose all of its credibility.

    The Arbereshe fled because it was a conflict after all, they didn't want to be put under foreign rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    What are wrote are historical facts.
    What are you saying? That the barbaric animals that routinely abducted women and children for sex purposes,skinned the prisoners of war alive, institutionalize the stealing of children to become soldiers, and enslave men to become slave soldiers, practice widespread slavery, had moral inhibitions of forcing Islam on it's subjects?
    Yes there were forced islamizations, primarily during the conquests, rebellions, social unrests, even local disputes of Muslims with Christians.
    Once a city was captured, the usual Ottoman practice was to sell the subjects as slaves, especially women and children. Many times were given the choice, slavery or Islam. Many slaves also converted to Islam as a ticked to freedom. Same occurred any time there was a revolt or a rebellion, or a social unrest. Ferocious punitive measures were followed and conversion was one way of saving your life, children, property, honor.
    Just search the aftermath of the sieges of cities or revolts and you ll understand how Muslim communities were created.
    Catholics of Albanian had no choice really, the Papic states were the main threat to Sultan rule in the Adriatic cost, and a constant threat to the empire it self.
    It took the Ottomans 300 years to eventually root out Venetians from the Balkans and Greece. Catholic populations were treated security risks, whereas heretic Christians as paganists.
    Why did you think, thousands of albanocatholics settled in Italy as refugees?
    Actually, I'm from the Catholic Northern tribes and I can tell you that many of neighbouring tribes converted in the mid 19th century and even 20th century, the reasons behind economical and other one was that of feeling forgotten by the West with no priests being sent to their villages for decades. That's also why many Catholics converted to Orthodox and became Serbs later on.

    The Arbereshe that went to Italy were not Catholic but Orthodox and after they settled they transformed their church into becoming Catholic of the Byzantine rite, but the fact is that the majority were Orthodox and only those from Shkodra (North Albania) and above (Albanians in Montenegro) were Catholic but not all as there were many Orthodox North Albanians too.

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