I2 in Peloponnesus, Greece. Origins?

I'm not a supporter of the theory that I2a-Din is originally Slavic but that it became along the way.

Just because its expansion coincides with the Slavic migrations it doesn't prove that it was Slavic. All the Eastern and Central European tribes were migrating at the time. It was the fall of the Roman Empire and they were being pushed and carried around by Huns and Alans and other Eastern tribes from the steppes.

The connection of I2a-Din with I2a-Disles and the fact that the closest relative of I2a-Din lives in France nowadays brings us to the Celto-Germanic migrations eastwards.

Nobody says I2a is Slavic! I2a has a number of subclades! Some of them are clearly Slavic. I am also I2a and is not Slavic. Some subclades of I2a in low percentages are present throughout Europe and Turkey, North Africa
 

let that delusional Greek wait for this mammoth study in a few years. Which will more than likely obliterate with absolute certainty his delusional rant. This study will more than shed light on barbarian migration period. the wealth of remains uncovered from it will give us more precise information.

https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

“The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”
 
It's not only TMRCA which suggests an origin among Early or Proto-Slavs, it's also the fact that CTS10228>Y3120 is most diverse in the area where the Slavs first emerged (Poland-Ukraine-Belarus). When referring to I2a-Din, most are referring to CTS10228 or CTS10228>Y3120.

A more western origin for CTS10228 is likely given where the ancestral and brother clades are found. So it's possible that the first CTS10228 carriers that arrived to Eastern Europe were Germanic speakers. The french sample that is CTS10228* is from the Bas-Rhin area which has a large German population, so it's likely that he has German origin.

Data suggests that I-Y3120 took part in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs and the clades present in the Balkans today have ancestral and brother clades found in Eastern European Slavs, this suggests that Y3120 arrived with Slavic speaking peoples.

I’m mostly in total agreement. While true that CTS10228 is most likely originally not Slavic, its tmrca is 3800 years. Roughly before pre-Proto-Germanic in southern Scandinavia. CTS10228 likely didn’t speak Slavic or even Germanic for that matter that early on. Also, 100 percent of his descendants spread with Y3120 which only dated to 200BC.

What is more likely to have happened, is that Y3120 survived with the eastern Corded Ware(Trziniec culture) whose surviving descendant participated in Proto Slavic ethnogenesis. This potentially explains the gap of time and why basal CTS10228 appears west but Y3120 doesn’t.

Y3120 likely survived amongst Proto Slavs exclusively. And since no I2a1b outside of a pre-CTS10228 clade found mostly in west European are negative for Y3120, it’s almost guaranteed the only surviving child of CTS10228 spread exclusively with Slavs. Regardless of cross assimilation at various intervals of the Middle Ages.

theres not even much debate of some R1a clades that are even more widespread and diverse than I2a1b.
 
Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.
 
Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.
How CTS10228 got there, was already answered. It arrived from the west. We can't exactly say when it arrived but it was most definitely after the Bronze Age. R-V88 was a Paleolithic and Mesolithic line, they were almost completely wiped out. I-Y3120 however is post Bronze Age.

The fact that I-CTS10228 outnumbers R1a in the Western Balkans is due to founder effects. It's not as if these tribes knew what haplogroup they belonged to. R1a is still pretty common among western South Slavs (Serbs - 16.5%, Croats - ~27%, Bosniaks - 17%). As for different subclades under Y3120 in the east and west, we should remember that the Slavic migration happened in different waves and in each wave different tribes who had different origins arrived. The first wave which, happened some time during the 6th Century, saw the migration of Slavs that likely spoke a language ancestral to Bulgarian, whilst the 7th Century migration saw a population ancestral to Serbo-Croats arrive. It's not like all South Slavs have the same origin.

If CTS10228>Y3120 arrived with Celtic or Germanic speakers as you suggested, we would see multiple brother clades under Y3120 and CTS10228 that are found in Western and Central Europe. We would also expect higher levels of diversity under CTS10228 and more basal clades.
 
Again, these are all fair points but you're all making a conclusive statement based on modern distribution of Slavs and the "coincidence" of CTS10228's dispersal.

These are hints and possibilities, not facts. We can't trace the physical movement of people based on subclades. Yes, currently CTS10228 is most diverse in the region you mentioned, but how did it get there? R1b-V88 was dominating the Balkans at one point but where is it now?

A fact is the case of CTS10228 vastly outnumbering R1a in Western Balkans while being almost in equal % in Eastern Balkans. It's a coincidence and it would mean nothing if Macedonia has more I2a than Bulgaria, but not a complete split of West and East, on top of that in the East I2a-Din North dominating instead of South.

Another fact is the mountainous distribution of CTS10228 while R1a shows exactly the opposite distribution in the very same areas.

We're dealing here with clear orders that CTS10228 tribes will occupy the mountains while R1a the lowlands, river valleys, and so on.

Yet, these are simply facts and are not conclusive but you can't simply use the excuse that during these several hundreds of years the Slavs migrated therefore its them. Every single tribe migrated at the time. Goths, Dacians, Carpi, Thracians, Illyrians, Celts, Romanized tribes from all over the empire, etc.

thats besides the point. There’s possibilities older varieties existed amongst those other tribes but every sing CTS102228 man alive today trace their ancestor back to Y3120 which was only 1 man living in 100BC. Nearly 100 percent of which is found in Slavs. Kelmandasi already explained the over representation of these lines in the Balkans are due to founder effects and bottlenecks with a complete lack of diversity.

Its diversity is closer to the Slavic urheimat(Poland/Belarus/Ukraine). All the Middle Ages sample were heavily Slavic any ways from the 8th century on. Pre migration data would help sure, but it’s evident that from the 8th century on, those carrying this line were genetically and by the grave site mostly Slavs.

Its funny you mention R1a, as if a ethnogenesis of a people is represented only by one blood line. The R1a branches are EVEN MORE diverse and spread out amongst various ethnic groups than I2a1b-Din is. And yet you’re trying to shift Slavic origin solely to R1a because it’s found more on the lowland?

slavs adapted and settled the mountains too, which explains the bottlenecks and founder effects occurring in the West Balkans causing the disparity with R1a.

The most common clades of I2a1b are even younger than some R1a clades. PH908 for instance come from one male survivor in 200CE in the early Middle Ages.


I2a1b/M458/Z280 together are pivotal to the ethnogenesis of the Proto Slavs the same way as V13/J2b/R1b was to Proto Albanians. I2a1b is found everywhere you find Slavs and almost no where among west Europeans. There is yet to be one old CTS102228 cluster predating Slavic expansion that is only found in the Balkans.

Dacians and Illyrians and Thracians didn’t carry modern I2a1b-CTS10228. If so you would have more diversity of branches associated with different groups. The fact remains that most of the basal branches are only found in northern and Eastern Slavs with descending clades undergoing founder effects and bottlenecks among Balkan Slavs.

There’s really no debate about its connection to the Slavic expansion the same as there is no debate to the paleo Balkans lineages that were apart of Albanian expansions.

The one Greek I2a1b branch is the only interesting case representing a potential earlier split before the migration. This branch is currently minimal and only found in some Greeks and east European Jews.

Most I2a1b clades in the Balkans only has one ancestor between 1000-1800 years back.
 
thats besides the point. There’s possibilities older varieties existed amongst those other tribes but every sing CTS102228 man alive today trace their ancestor back to Y3120 which was only 1 man living in 100BC. Nearly 100 percent of which is found in Slavs. Kelmandasi already explained the over representation of these lines in the Balkans are due to founder effects and bottlenecks with a complete lack of diversity.
Founder effect on an entire geographical region, mountainous, with a different physical appearance, traditional dress, customs, warrior society playing the lahuta/gusle, dark features and of the so-called Dinaric type, with strong previous Vlach and Albanian presence reflected in place names, personal names, etc?

If you're really curious, give yourself some basic knowledge on the traditional clothes of different Croatian regions and notice something interesting. Look at their faces also, their local culture related to their daily profession, and nature of music, songs, and dances. Tell me if you can't clearly see who's Illyrian, Slavic, or Italianized.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/CroatianTraditionalCostumes/photos/?ref=page_internal

My favourite and the most interesting is the men dancing in the end, area of Vrlika. Amazing! Tell me this isn't some Illyrian dance with typical movements seen in today's Ghegs, Tosks, Epirotes, Macedonians, Thessalians, Arvanites, Aetolo-Akarnanians.



Its funny you mention R1a, as if a ethnogenesis of a people is represented only by one blood line. The R1a branches are EVEN MORE diverse and spread out amongst various ethnic groups than I2a1b-Din is. And yet you’re trying to shift Slavic origin solely to R1a because it’s found more on the lowland?

slavs adapted and settled the mountains too, which explains the bottlenecks and founder effects occurring in the West Balkans causing the disparity with R1a.
Thing is, you're the only one speaking confidently of ethnogenesis. I've been reading Roman history all my life and to me Slavs are just another Eastern European tribe that appeared in Roman sources, which are so confusing and misinterpreted (to be expected) that you never understand who was what. Most of those migrations were carried by a wide range of alliances between tribes of 3 or more ethnicities.

Did you know how many times the local Illyrians and Thracians (besides the Dacians that is a known fact) joined the "barbarians" against the Romans/Byzantines and even marched to Rome itself to destroy it?

So you can't speak with confidence who was who in 200 BC in that area of Eastern Europe and who moved where. You can only speak after an ethnos was well established in a geographic area hundreds of years after.

FYI, funerary practices all over Illyricum, from Dalmatia down to Albania (Mati culture) were not interrupted in all those centuries of Slavic migrations.

Dacians and Illyrians and Thracians didn’t carry modern I2a1b-CTS10228. If so you would have more diversity of branches associated with different groups. The fact remains that most of the basal branches are only found in northern and Eastern Slavs with descending clades undergoing founder effects and bottlenecks among Balkan Slavs.
Again, you can't really know this mate. You naively assumed that I believe only R1a is Slavic but it's you who actually carries this mindset. You think because Albanians have mostly E-V13, J2b, and R1b that Illyrians and Dacians couldn't have carried them? How can you speak so confidently for Illyrians who lived up to modern Austria and Hungary (Pannonia) and had settlements even further North bordering the Germanic tribes, and even worse is the case of the Carpathian Dacians who could have ended up anywhere they wanted for hundreds of years after being defeated and massacred by the Romans. Many were transplanted into Illyricum/Moesia while others vanished from history only to be counted later among the other barbarians pillaging the Balkans.

There’s really no debate about its connection to the Slavic expansion the same as there is no debate to the paleo Balkans lineages that were apart of Albanian expansions.
Albanian expansion? What is that?

The one Greek I2a1b branch is the only interesting case representing a potential earlier split before the migration. This branch is currently minimal and only found in some Greeks and east European Jews.
You have a long list of candidates for the origin of CTS10228 specifically but in the end yes, Slavs were part of the reason of its current distribution, alongside Goths, Dacians, Getae, Scythians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc.

We just can't possibly know unless we find for instance a uniquely Sarmatian Iron Age grave that carries CTS10228 among other clades.

And that mysterious Greek branch should open the eyes to everyone and stop seeing this matter so black and white. Maybe by 2030 we'll have 5 other examples like it and conclude that CTS10228 is Bavarian or Steppe-Caucasian or whatever.
 
Founder effect on an entire geographical region, mountainous, with a different physical appearance, traditional dress, customs, warrior society playing the lahuta/gusle, dark features and of the so-called Dinaric type, with strong previous Vlach and Albanian presence reflected in place names, personal names, etc?

If you're really curious, give yourself some basic knowledge on the traditional clothes of different Croatian regions and notice something interesting. Look at their faces also, their local culture related to their daily profession, and nature of music, songs, and dances.

In my eyes, CTS10228 is a clade affected by the Slavic migrations, not involved in the creation of the true Proto-Slavs of which we know nothing about.


Thing is, you're the only one speaking confidently of ethnogenesis. I've been reading Roman history all my life and to me Slavs are just another Eastern European tribe that appeared in Roman sources, which are so confusing and misinterpreted (to be expected) that you never understand who was what. Most of those migrations were carried by a wide range of alliances between tribes of 3 or more ethnicities.

Did you know how many times the local Illyrians and Thracians (besides the Dacians that is a known fact) joined the "barbarians" against the Romans/Byzantines and even marched to Rome itself to destroy it?

So you can't speak with confidence who was who in 200 BC in that area of Eastern Europe and who moved where. You can only speak after an ethnos was well established in a geographic area hundreds of years after.

FYI, funerary practices all over Illyricum, from Dalmatia down to Albania (Mati culture) were not interrupted in all those centuries of Slavic migrations.


Again, you can't really know this mate. You naively assumed that I believe only R1a is Slavic but it's you who actually carries this mindset. You think because Albanians have mostly E-V13, J2b, and R1b that Illyrians and Dacians couldn't have carried them? How can you speak so confidently for Illyrians who lived up to modern Austria and Hungary (Pannonia) and had settlements even further North bordering the Germanic tribes, and even worse is the case of the Carpathian Dacians who could have ended up anywhere they wanted for hundreds of years after being defeated and massacred by the Romans. Many were transplanted into Illyricum/Moesia while others vanished from history only to be counted later among the other barbarians pillaging the Balkans.


Albanian expansion? What is that?


You have a long list of candidates for the origin of CTS10228 specifically but in the end yes, Slavs were part of the reason of its current distribution, alongside Goths, Dacians, Getae, Scythians, Sarmatians, Bastarnae, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc.

We just can't possibly know unless we find for instance a uniquely Sarmatian Iron Age grave that carries CTS10228 among other clades.

And that mysterious Greek branch should open the eyes to everyone and stop seeing this matter so black and white. Maybe by 2030 we'll have 5 other examples like it and conclude that CTS10228 is Bavarian or Steppe-Caucasian or whatever.

i don’t think you really get what I’m saying and it’s not something that I solely believe or have come to understanding. It’s the consensus. I had the same approach to it as you did. Yet that was until I realized that a clade represents only ONE survivor.

All living CTS10228 men tested up until now with exception of the basal Frenchman are Y3120 positive. The most recent ancestor of this clade lived around 100BCE. Now I understand lineages can multiply rapidly in a few hundred years given favorable circumstances.

However, how can you possibly explain all living I-Y3120 men being descended from various moving tribes and cultures when they all spread from only ONE man in 100BCE?

Additionally that Greek I-Y3120 is its OWN branch that split from the other 99 percent of clades that to this day are found predominantly in Slavs. The idea that all R1a avoided mountains is silly. You have clades among Ghegs too however minimal. So the location of I2a1b-Y3120 in mountains is not really an argument. You also cannot equate phenotype and genome with Y chromosomes. otherwise you would be hard pressed to explain to me how a full blooded Chinese people carry I1, and L1029.

It only takes a few generations of assimilation and intermixing to change the course of a lineage given the circumstances. Humans are highly adaptable. Proto Albanians descended from Illyrians Dardanians, Romans Macedonians etc. so when I say E-V13/J2b/R1b expanded with early phase Proto Albanians I mean they were the most dominant and successful. Other lineages May have existed before. And surely many were introduced much later, differentiating later old Albanians from Proto Albanian. So on and so forth.

Many Northern Albanian I2a1b-CTS10228 is PH908. Its tmrca is only 1800 years. That means all PH908 men alive today come from only one man in 200CE. Which means by the time of the migration these men were a tribe. PH908 is most diverse amongst Serbo-Croatian tribes. The branch common in southern Albanians is shared with Vlachs and Bulgarians. Which is something like only 1500-1700ybp. How could one man only a little over 2000 years ago be the root of so many ancient people’s being established even further back in the Bronze and Iron Age. We can tell what haplotypes are originated from Albanians so how can we not do this for Slavs?

Its easy to see by the age of clades and shared matches how these groups possibly expanded. And there’s no other scenario That really makes sense. The only R1a In Thracians found was a Z93 branch that is unrelated to the modern spread which makes up little R1a in Balkans.

Also the I2 was completely separate branches from the one represented in the Balkans today. This isn’t like diversity in V13 where clades can be separated by 3000 or more years. This is a line which the entire group belonging to it comes from ONE man in 100BCE. There’s simply not enough time to explain its dissemination into various ethnos.

In order for your scenario to work there should be various founder branches splitting CTS10228 representing a German branch, and Albanian branch and so on, much like the minor Greek/Jewish branch. The truth is though the rest of it only spread from one guy no less more than 2000 years ago.

I have no problem seeing the line go through cross assimilation and being carried minimally by Avars l, Goths, etc. But Thracians, Getai, Dacians, and Illyrians? That’s simply to far back in time giving no time for that one Y3120 guy in the late Iron Age to even remotely be connected to all those people. If there was a brother clade to Y3120 that split during its formation, then we can identify potentially older less common branches. They’re all young and over represented in Slavs though.

Using your logic we should see huge diverse branches in the lineage. And maybe by 2030 this could be revealed as you say. Yet, that’s not the case for all tested CTS10228 men tested at this time. Albanians and Vlachs share the same branches with Bulgarians and Romanians, and recently. Nothing ancient. Something like the common ancestor of all those men living in only 300-500CE. These all line up with the migration. I don’t see how a Thracian or Dacian survived that late and magically developed into Slavs Albanians and Vlachs/Romanians.

Maybe branches like thst Greek on exist but that’s hardly the case. I wouldn’t attach existing branches to any other than Slavs, East Germanics, Avars, Bulgars or Sarmatians at the moment. There’s simply nothing remotely convincing or even approaching real evidence that these lineages were even older.

Unless they discover some ancient carrier of these modern branches they’re simply to young to represent all the scenarios you propose.
 
i don’t think you really get what I’m saying and it’s not something that I solely believe or have come to understanding. It’s the consensus. I had the same approach to it as you did. Yet that was until I realized that a clade represents only ONE survivor.

All living CTS10228 men tested up until now with exception of the basal Frenchman are Y3120 positive. The most recent ancestor of this clade lived around 100BCE. Now I understand lineages can multiply rapidly in a few hundred years given favorable circumstances.

However, how can you possibly explain all living I-Y3120 men being descended from various moving tribes and cultures when they all spread from only ONE man in 100BCE?
I see that we're not understanding each other at all. I claimed exactly the opposite of what you're assuming, that because it was only 1 man 2200 years ago that you cannot pinpoint to Slavs.

We don't know when that man lived where, especially in a region where we have all the aforementioned tribes. Eastern Europe wasn't like Western Europe where you just had Celts, that's it. That's an exaggeration but trying to make a point.

Additionally that Greek I-Y3120 is its OWN branch that split from the other 99 percent of clades that to this day are found predominantly in Slavs. The idea that all R1a avoided mountains is silly. You have clades among Ghegs too however minimal. So the location of I2a1b-Y3120 in mountains is not really an argument. You also cannot equate phenotype and genome with Y chromosomes. otherwise you would be hard pressed to explain to me how a full blooded Chinese people carry I1, and L1029.
You're comparing rarities with currently a very widespread branch. Chinese man carrying I1 is completely off topic, same as you belonging to L1029 which the fact that is found in Sardinians qualifies it as more likely Germanic in my opinion. And the fact that it created a founder effect in Albanians specifically means your ancestor came very early possibly before Slavs and didn't pillage Illyria Graeca with his tribesman, more like a Romanized settler.

Many Northern Albanian I2a1b-CTS10228 is PH908. Its tmrca is only 1800 years. That means all PH908 men alive today come from only one man in 200CE. Which means by the time of the migration these men were a tribe. PH908 is most diverse amongst Serbo-Croatian tribes. The branch common in southern Albanians is shared with Vlachs and Bulgarians. Which is something like only 1500-1700ybp. How could one man only a little over 2000 years ago be the root of so many ancient people’s being established even further back in the Bronze and Iron Age. We can tell what haplotypes are originated from Albanians so how can we not do this for Slavs?
If you actually carefully read what I posted, you would understand that I'm not denying he was a Slav. It would be hypocritical of me to say that "I don't know what he was but he wasn't a Slav". There's just too many hints that CTS10228 represents an earlier population than Slavs that got assimilated by the locals and were originally more closely related to the locals than the more distant Slavs. Maybe he was just a very early Slav brought by Goths, but we can apply this logic with at least 10 different tribes that pillaged the Balkans.

But the problem is that you've spent more time on studying the genetics rather than history of Eastern Europe and Balkans in those centuries that you can only think of Slavs. But we have evidence that ancient Greeks were mostly right about the fact that this area was mostly populated by Germanic and Scythian/Sarmatian tribes.

I have no problem seeing the line go through cross assimilation and being carried minimally by Avars l, Goths, etc. But Thracians, Getai, Dacians, and Illyrians? That’s simply to far back in time giving no time for that one Y3120 guy in the late Iron Age to even remotely be connected to all those people. If there was a brother clade to Y3120 that split during its formation, then we can identify potentially older less common branches. They’re all young and over represented in Slavs though.

Using your logic we should see huge diverse branches in the lineage. And maybe by 2030 this could be revealed as you say. Yet, that’s not the case for all tested CTS10228 men tested at this time. Albanians and Vlachs share the same branches with Bulgarians and Romanians, and recently. Nothing ancient. Something like the common ancestor of all those men living in only 300-500CE. These all line up with the migration. I don’t see how a Thracian or Dacian survived that late and magically developed into Slavs Albanians and Vlachs/Romanians.
I intentionally didn't mention Thracians but Dacians, Getae, and Pannonians. But you're thinking is that Pannonians almost near Bavaria in Germany were the same as the Atintani down South just because they're both Illyrian/Illyroid tribes.

Maybe branches like thst Greek on exist but that’s hardly the case. I wouldn’t attach existing branches to any other than Slavs, East Germanics, Avars, Bulgars or Sarmatians at the moment. There’s simply nothing remotely convincing or even approaching real evidence that these lineages were even older.
We're finally speaking the same language. You left Celts out of that list but that's ok because there's many more tribes we're not including or we don't know off because they were probably wiped out by the larger tribes and the Greeks and Romans couldn't distinguish them from their neighbours.

But I still keep an eye at the fact that we have the mysterious events in the Dinaric Alps, then magically in the vicinity of Zagreb R1a jumps higher up to 35% in Northern areas, appearances change, culture changes, etc. what I said before. Genetics isn't supposed to explain everything or rather you need knowledge on several fields to be able to come to conclusions (e.g. history, archaeology, anthropology, linguistics, etc.).

IMO those remaining and already assimilated Vlachs of ex-Yugoslavia will be of great help in solving this mystery. It's exactly where they mostly lived (Dinaric Alps in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Dalmatia) that also the modern Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian developed, and 1 indication is it's loss of pronunciation of "h" and other typical Romance features.

You've been raised in US so I don't expect you to speak Italian, but if you go to Wikipedia and read how the Dalmatian langauge sounds like is like a typical Gheg Malesor trying to speak Italian with his heavy accent and nasal voices, pronouncing vowels as "ou", "uo", "ua" instead just "a" or "u". These are the areas that Vlachs dominated and up to 25% of them had still Albanians surnames even when they migrated North to Lika in Croatia, far from the "core" of the area.

The so-called region of Kutmichevitsa in South East Albania was the area where Cyrillic, Old Church Slavonic, and Eastern Orthodox culture was spread from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

Then you have the same area included together with Bulgaria in the Kingdom of Bulgarians and Vlachs, and we know well from history that especially in these areas and vicinity Vlachs were far more numerous than the Slavic newcomers. Obviously mass assimilation happened since Slavic became lingua franca and the fact that within Albania Vlachs have strangely elevated levels of I2a and R1a makes you wonder, were they really Slavs before that became Vlachs/shepherds? Then their other Slavic cousins came and found them entirely Romanized within a century and living a nomadic lifestyle, while the identical newcomers settled almost exclusively in the lowlands? (explains how mostly lowlands and river valleys have Slavic names in South Albania)

Long story short, too many tribes, too many inconsistencies, too many gaps and ignorance on local Balkan tribes even 1000 years after the arrival of Slavs where non-Slavs were confused with Slavs by foreign writers, etc.

Just like with Slavs migrating in the Balkans, I can go on forever with Celtic settlements since 4th century BC all over Northern Balkans, Goths, Germanic foederati settled everywhere in Moesia and Thrace, resettled Carpi in Illyria, resettled Dacians and Getae in Illyria, resettled Illyrians in Dacia, Scythians and Sarmatians continuously pillaging Illyrian and Moesia together with Dacians. So a thousand chances for those CTS10228 to have slipped in.
 

But I still keep an eye at the fact that we have the mysterious events in the Dinaric Alps, then magically in the vicinity of Zagreb R1a jumps higher up to 35% in Northern areas, appearances change, culture changes, etc. what I said before.

Are you a member of the Serbian forum(because they too like to use such argumentation)?

"Appearances change, culture changes, etc." it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone, here we can add and language, names, last names, dialects, music, etc.

As far as R1a is concerned there are no drastic jumps behind Dinaric Alps. R1a is the second haplotype in Dalmatia, out of 220 people 120 have I2a while 42 people have R1a, in northwestern Croatia out of 220 people R1a has 64 people.

Genetics isn't supposed to explain everything or rather you need knowledge on several fields to be able to come to conclusions (e.g. history, archaeology, anthropology, linguistics, etc.).


The only thing that proves migration of someone in some area is archeogenetics, archeology, genetics and then comes written records. Linguistics does not prove origin of someone.

IMO those remaining and already assimilated Vlachs of ex-Yugoslavia will be of great help in solving this mystery. It's exactly where they mostly lived (Dinaric Alps in Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, Dalmatia) that also the modern Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian developed,

The Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared in the 12th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian

Therefore it is a dialect of the original Slavic language and has no connection with original Vlachs(which were not originally Slavs). Whether with later assimilation that dialect adopted in Vlachs groups which later spread through migrations in the Turkish era that's another matter.

You've been raised in US so I don't expect you to speak Italian, but if you go to Wikipedia and read how the Dalmatian langauge sounds like is like a typical Gheg Malesor trying to speak Italian with his heavy accent and nasal voices, pronouncing vowels as "ou", "uo", "ua" instead just "a" or "u". These are the areas that Vlachs dominated and up to 25% of them had still Albanians surnames even when they migrated North to Lika in Croatia, far from the "core" of the area.

Vlachs genetics can be sought in the Serbian population(Croatia, Bosnia) and part of that genetics is certainly Vlachs origin but not all. As far as Croatian genetics of Dalmatia is concerned, there is very little Vlachs genetics because in this area I2a is 60-70% +R1a and Vlachs are not just I2a, they have mixed genetics.


Slavic became lingua franca and the fact that within Albania Vlachs have strangely elevated levels of I2a and R1a makes you wonder, were they really Slavs before that became Vlachs/shepherds?

Yes they are, precisely I2a branch I-S17250 proves migration from White Croatia (historical records that talk about that) there are also and R1a branches that exist in Poland. For final proof we need to wait for archaeogenetic data until then we have use live genetics and archeological data(links between Croatian, Dalmatian, Bosnian and Slovenian, Czech, Slovak archeological finds)
 
Are you a member of the Serbian forum(because they too like to use such argumentation)?

"Appearances change, culture changes, etc." it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone, here we can add and language, names, last names, dialects, music, etc.

As far as R1a is concerned there are no drastic jumps behind Dinaric Alps. R1a is the second haplotype in Dalmatia, out of 220 people 120 have I2a while 42 people have R1a, in northwestern Croatia out of 220 people R1a has 64 people.

Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?! Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE.

In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.

During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

The "Vlach" or "Romanian" traditional system of counting sheep in pairs do (two), pato (four), šasto (six), šopći (eight), zeći (ten) has been preserved in Velebit, Bukovica, Dalmatian Zagora, and Ćićarija until today.[37][41][42]

Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").[63]According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis

1828 writing by Colonel Ivan Murgić probably had the last original testimony of Lika-Primorje Bunjevci about their traditional identity, in which they said to be "We are hardworking brothers Bunjevci", while regarding (Catholic) confession always as "I am true Bunjevac".[14] A more recent 1980 testimony from Baja, Hungary considered they came from Albania.[15]



Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence

Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.


The only thing that proves migration of someone in some area is archeogenetics, archeology, genetics and then comes written records. Linguistics does not prove origin of someone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian

Therefore it is a dialect of the original Slavic language and has no connection with original Vlachs(which were not originally Slavs). Whether with later assimilation that dialect adopted in Vlachs groups which later spread through migrations in the Turkish era that's another matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_the_history_of_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojkanje

Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian), since they're singing "from the throat" :D
It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".
 

Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?! Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE.

In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.

During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

The "Vlach" or "Romanian" traditional system of counting sheep in pairs do (two), pato (four), šasto (six), šopći (eight), zeći (ten) has been preserved in Velebit, Bukovica, Dalmatian Zagora, and Ćićarija until today.[37][41][42]

Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").[63]According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis

1828 writing by Colonel Ivan Murgić probably had the last original testimony of Lika-Primorje Bunjevci about their traditional identity, in which they said to be "We are hardworking brothers Bunjevci", while regarding (Catholic) confession always as "I am true Bunjevac".[14] A more recent 1980 testimony from Baja, Hungary considered they came from Albania.[15]



Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence

Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_the_history_of_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojkanje

Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian), since they're singing "from the throat" :D
It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".
Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect. You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this. You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe.

Sure I2a-Y3120 is high in some mountainous regions, but almost all of them fall under one clade which had a common ancestor that conveniently dates back to the Slavic migrations. For your claim to be true we would expect higher diversity of clades and older clades, plus they would have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe.

As for the cities, you do realise that populations aren't static and that they move around? Majority of modern day inhabitants are likely to be descendants of migrants who migrated into the city rather recently from nearby villages. You're acting as if the inhabitants of these cities have been there since the Roman period.

Please don't tell me that you seriously believe that South Slavic Balkan influence is a result of I2a. A group can be influenced by another population and still not receive genetic input from them, the Ottoman Turkish influence in modern day Albanians is an example of this. That's not to say that South Slavs don't have Balkan input, they do, but consensus shows that it's primarily maternal.

Anyways, It's very clear that I-Y3120 in the Balkans is a result of the Slavic migrations. If you have any genetic evidence suggesting otherwise post it.
 
Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect.
Thousands of villages of coincidence makes sense to you and 2 different waves of different people migrating at different times doesn't?

You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this.
This is the question that I ask you and others that make conclusive statements, and you actually ask this back to me?

Since you're having difficulties understanding my position, do you think these Slavs had a pact that 1 tribe will occupy only certain regions while the others will occupy others, on top of that 1 tribe will follow their farming lifestyle while the other will continue to be shepherds?

You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe.
How different were the Serboi from each other according to you?

Remember, Bulgars were not Slavs but adopted Slavic and so did their underlings and slaves. So who was what? That's a question DNA tests cannot answer unless we start having massive ancient samples.

Sure I2a-Y3120 is high in some mountainous regions, but almost all of them fall under one clade which had a common ancestor that conveniently dates back to the Slavic migrations.
That's the other problem you're not getting, that Slavic migration wasn't the only one. It was the last one and the definitive one. That period is known as the Barbarian Invasions not Slavic Migration/Invasion.

For your claim to be true we would expect higher diversity of clades and older clades, plus they would have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe.
What you have to finally understand is that I'm the only one not making claims, but giving food for thought so that you consider your claims more carefully.

Why would they have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe? A former minor clade being displaced is illogical?

I think the CTS10228* in France is already surprising enough that we have it, not to mention I2a-Disles.

CTS10228 could have changed locations 13 times, where the 11th time was from Pannonia to Dacia (Celts/Germans), 12th time was from Dacia to the Dnieper-Carpathian area (extremely close to Dacia), and the 13th and final time was when they left for the Balkans and the clade was finally numerous enough to leave people behind which would today show us the high variance. Don't you think this has happened to many clades, especially minor ones that are more likely to disappear?

Thus, my answer that there's inconclusive evidence.

As for the cities, you do realise that populations aren't static and that they move around? Majority of modern day inhabitants are likely to be descendants of migrants who migrated into the city rather recently from nearby villages. You're acting as if the inhabitants of these cities have been there since the Roman period.
Again, this is what I should be telling you. Random and natural migrations within the same area mix populations up over time and make the world more and more heterogenous, but the division was so extreme that we still have considerably homogenous regions even nowadays in the Balkans, where I2a dominates in some while R1a in others, despite 1500 years of shuffling.

During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

Do you think it's another coincidence that Zumberak has the lowest I2a % in Croatia and then we COINCIDENTALLY have this so-called Orthodox migration who could have brought the levels up to 17% nowadays? It could have been 0-3% and you would have called this another of the thousands examples of founder effect.

Please don't tell me that you seriously believe that South Slavic Balkan influence is a result of I2a. A group can be influenced by another population and still not receive genetic input from them, the Ottoman Turkish influence in modern day Albanians is an example of this. That's not to say that South Slavs don't have Balkan input, they do, but consensus shows that it's primarily maternal.
I'm not sure I really understand what you're asking. You mean that I believe I2a is the source of what we call today Proto-Balkan autosomal admixture? If that's your question, my answer is "Not at all". Modern Proto-Balkan admixture found in Albanians and Greeks mostly is a local Southern Balkan admix, and we don't know the situation of North-East Balkan during late Iron Age or later.

Like I always say, don't expect Pannonians and Dacians to completely overlap with Albanians and Greeks. That is absurd!

Anyways, It's very clear that I-Y3120 in the Balkans is a result of the Slavic migrations. If you have any genetic evidence suggesting otherwise post it.
It's also clear that your J1 is a result of Ottoman Sipahis. "Because who else besides the Ottomans came to Balkans for so long?" Case closed, screw Byzantines moving Anatolians, Armenians, Georgians, and other people around. Screw Romans settling Syrian archers in the Northern Balkans and Moesia, screw Phoenicians, and so on.
 

Lowest I2a frequency in Croatia is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. Highest R1a frequency is observed in Osijek and Zumberak. What an astonishing coincidence?!

Kelmendasi you explained why this is so, "Well yes, it is coincidence and founder effect. You're acting as if these people knew what haplogroup they belonged to and decided to migrate to allocated regions based on this. You also forget that the South Slavs don't all have the same origin, the migration happened in different stages from different regions in Eastern Europe."
I would add that there are more Slavic and Croatian waves of migration to Roman Dalmatia, we do not know(at that time) their tribal differences, relationships, etc. We will know this more precisely in the future.

Again, founder effect coincidences all over the Balkans. Wherever I2a is high (in mountainous), R1a is as high or sometimes even lower than in Greece or Albania. Every single spot on the map, every single village, every single city is a damn COINCIDENCE

As I said, we have more waves of migration, in Dalmatia R1a(Croats) is the second haplotype in the population not much different(in carriers) than in northwestern Croatia but I2a is strong and why it is so we will see in the future when we find out the exact migrations of these peoples.

In a small country with a population of 4 million like croatia, you move 30 minutes North and you get into a cities/villages with the highest R1a but COINCIDENTALLY the lowest I2a.

Part of Croatia was under Turks and that southern part of Croatia was catholic so people were mixing with each other because no one became Catholic at that time because of Turkish war with Croats and Hungarians etc. In fact, Croats in Dalmatia and Bosnia have preserved genetics that exist before Turkish time.
There are also Dalmatian islands who are also isolated so that probably affected to strong I2a. If someone migrates from Herzegiovina wher I2a is up to 70% to the Dalmatian islands and whose inhabitants mix among themselves then and this affects the overall genetic picture of Dalmatia. Perhaps at that time R1a was strong in northwestern Dalmatia as the islands are inhabited from eastern Dalmatia and Herzegovina where is I2a strong?

As I say when we find out genetically local Balkan migration then we will know more. Until then we can speculate but it is not proof.


During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians

Yes, and what interests you?





According to modern and most recent ethnological studies, as well anthroponymy structure,[8] Bunjevci have substantial elements of non-Slavic origin (Vlachian, Albanian) and originate from Vlachian-Croatian ethnic symbiosis

You have genetic data and prove those claims, until then this is a fairy tale. Although it is certain that this group also has and Vlachs origin, but how many percent we do not know and therefore we cannot draw conclusions concerning the whole group of Bunjevci or someone else.

Dubrovnik - I2a (53%), I1 (9%), R1a (13%). Another damn coincidence. This city of Dalmatia famous for its Dalmatia language (Romance), it's arrival of Vlachs and late Slavic assimilation we have such numbers. Coincidentally also the tallest and darkest eyed and haired of all. #coincidence

You do not understand that this I2a proves Croatian migration to the Balkans. We do not know relations at that time and which Croatian tribes came to which area, certain is that majority of Croats brought I2a I-S17250 to Dalmatia, to them they were probably R1a Croatian or Slavic tribes (from Slovenia to northwestern Dalmatia).
At this point this is a guess, when we find out about local Balkan migration then we will be smarter.

If you claim something concrete then prove it with genetic data ie. migration in that area.

Some 20% were of "Old Balkanic" origin, of Romance root words (and Slavic suffixes "-ić", "-ac", "-an", "-en", "-elj") or Romance suffixes ("-ul", "-as", "-at", "-ta", "-er", "-et", "-man"), and also some found derived from Illyrian–Thracian root words or with Albanian suffixes ("-aj" and "-eza").

Coincidentally their customs and traditional dress are uber Balkan, while their music has a beautiful touch of Italian influence too. Another coincidence.


Ojkanje refers to the characteristic style of singing with a shaking voice, often described as "from the throat". - Probably ojk is just ujk (wolf in Albanian),

since they're singing "from the throat" :D
It is a remnant of Illyrian singing by local people, retained as part of their identity and history. It originated in Archaic and Medieval times, when the Illyrians were present. "Ganga / kënga" in Albanian (i.e. descendant of the Illyrian language branch) means just "song".

I do not discuss things that have nothing to do with the origin of people.

That is why i asked you if you are from a Serbian forum because they also prove the origin of someone on that basis, once again it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone so it is useless to discuss it.
 
Last edited:
Thousands of villages of coincidence makes sense to you and 2 different waves of different people migrating at different times doesn't?


This is the question that I ask you and others that make conclusive statements, and you actually ask this back to me?

Since you're having difficulties understanding my position, do you think these Slavs had a pact that 1 tribe will occupy only certain regions while the others will occupy others, on top of that 1 tribe will follow their farming lifestyle while the other will continue to be shepherds?


How different were the Serboi from each other according to you?

Remember, Bulgars were not Slavs but adopted Slavic and so did their underlings and slaves. So who was what? That's a question DNA tests cannot answer unless we start having massive ancient samples.


That's the other problem you're not getting, that Slavic migration wasn't the only one. It was the last one and the definitive one. That period is known as the Barbarian Invasions not Slavic Migration/Invasion.


What you have to finally understand is that I'm the only one not making claims, but giving food for thought so that you consider your claims more carefully.

Why would they have to have brother clades in Western and Central Europe? A former minor clade being displaced is illogical?

I think the CTS10228* in France is already surprising enough that we have it, not to mention I2a-Disles.

CTS10228 could have changed locations 13 times, where the 11th time was from Pannonia to Dacia (Celts/Germans), 12th time was from Dacia to the Dnieper-Carpathian area (extremely close to Dacia), and the 13th and final time was when they left for the Balkans and the clade was finally numerous enough to leave people behind which would today show us the high variance. Don't you think this has happened to many clades, especially minor ones that are more likely to disappear?

Thus, my answer that there's inconclusive evidence.


Again, this is what I should be telling you. Random and natural migrations within the same area mix populations up over time and make the world more and more heterogenous, but the division was so extreme that we still have considerably homogenous regions even nowadays in the Balkans, where I2a dominates in some while R1a in others, despite 1500 years of shuffling.

During the Orthodox migration to Žumberak in 1538, general commander Nikola Jurišić mentioned the Vlachs who "in our parts are called as Old Romans" separate from the Serbs and Rascians.[23]

Do you think it's another coincidence that Zumberak has the lowest I2a % in Croatia and then we COINCIDENTALLY have this so-called Orthodox migration who could have brought the levels up to 17% nowadays? It could have been 0-3% and you would have called this another of the thousands examples of founder effect.


I'm not sure I really understand what you're asking. You mean that I believe I2a is the source of what we call today Proto-Balkan autosomal admixture? If that's your question, my answer is "Not at all". Modern Proto-Balkan admixture found in Albanians and Greeks mostly is a local Southern Balkan admix, and we don't know the situation of North-East Balkan during late Iron Age or later.

Like I always say, don't expect Pannonians and Dacians to completely overlap with Albanians and Greeks. That is absurd!


It's also clear that your J1 is a result of Ottoman Sipahis. "Because who else besides the Ottomans came to Balkans for so long?" Case closed, screw Byzantines moving Anatolians, Armenians, Georgians, and other people around. Screw Romans settling Syrian archers in the Northern Balkans and Moesia, screw Phoenicians, and so on.
Provide genetic evidence that would suggest I-Y3120 came with various different migrations, even pre-slavic ones.

I don't understand why you're bringing up the Serboi, elaborate if you can. The Serboi were a tribe from the Caucasus and likely spoke an Iranic language, though I do know that there are theories suggesting that the Medieval Serb (prior to migration into the Balkans) elite was originally Iranic speaking.

It was actually the Bulgar elite which was originally Turkic speaking, the vast majority of the population was of Slavic origin and spoke an early version of Bulgaro-Macedonian. These Slavs came during the 6th Century and represented the first phase of the Slavic migration. The later phases (7th Century) is when the ancestors of the Serbs and Croats arrived. Historians such as Zlatarski have argued that the Sklavenoi were ancestral to Serbo-Croats whilst the Antes were ancestral to Bulgaro-Macedonians.

If they have brother clades in Western and Central Europe then a recent Western origin is likely. That's why it's important.

The French sample is from Bas-Rhin, a region which has a high German population. Chances are that he has a German ancestor or is German.

The connection between I2a-CTS10228 and I2a-L621 is over 6,000 years old, pretty distant. Anyways I'm not saying that I-CTS10228 doesn't have Western origin, I have said the opposite on multiple occasions.

You're implying that I believe I-Y3120 is a result of the Slavic migration because Slavs remained in the Balkans for the longest, but I'm not. I base it on genetic evidence that coincides rather perfectly with historical data. You're just being extra. With J1 it's the same thing, we can tell who brought it by subclades and who falls within them.

Again, provide evidence which would suggest that it came with other migrants.
 
I do not discuss things that have nothing to do with the origin of people.
Culture or songs alone do not confirm the origin of a people, but 100 little facts like music, speech, dress, DNA, appearance, etc. altogether do give an almost clear picture of a group's origin.

That is why i asked you if you are from a Serbian forum because they also prove the origin of someone on that basis, once again it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone so it is useless to discuss it.
You think I care about your petty South Slavic differences among each other that I get involved in Serbian forums? I don't speak Serbian nor do I care about your internal problems.

You're all the same to me but if I had to choose for political reasons I choose Croats over Serbs and Bosniaks.
 
Provide genetic evidence that would suggest I-Y3120 came with various different migrations, even pre-slavic ones.
Why?

If they have brother clades in Western and Central Europe then a recent Western origin is likely. That's why it's important.
If they find it, great. If they don't, it doesn't disprove anything.

Besides, what does origin mean to you? Which period of time? In 400BC it could have been between France and Germany, 200BC in Pannonia, and 400 AD in the Carpathians. So which region is the origin?

You're implying that I believe I-Y3120 is a result of the Slavic migration because Slavs remained in the Balkans for the longest, but I'm not. I base it on genetic evidence that coincides rather perfectly with historical data. You're just being extra.
You can't be shallow with genetics and origin of people. "It's Slavic because happened to migrate during the period from 200 BC to 700 AD." Wow, really? What did the Celts, Goths, Dacians, Bastarnae, Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc. do? Stay in one place?

With J1 it's the same thing, we can tell who brought it by subclades and who falls within them.
Really? So, who brought J1-P58 to the Balkans specifically?

Again, provide evidence which would suggest that it came with other migrants.
Again, why would I undertake such a ridiculous and impossible mission?

Life and history have proven to be mysterious. I will refrain from going around and making absurd claims about a certain clade, especially when I have little knowledge of history, archaeology, and anthropology. Genetists that make such statements must have extensive knowledge or help from a real professional to be able to come with answers. Otherwise, they should just say "Ok, this is J1-P58. It's found here, here, and here. Cheers!".
 
Why?


If they find it, great. If they don't, it doesn't disprove anything.

Besides, what does origin mean to you? Which period of time? In 400BC it could have been between France and Germany, 200BC in Pannonia, and 400 AD in the Carpathians. So which region is the origin?


You can't be shallow with genetics and origin of people. "It's Slavic because happened to migrate during the period from 200 BC to 700 AD." Wow, really? What did the Celts, Goths, Dacians, Bastarnae, Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Alans, Bulgars, etc. do? Stay in one place?


Really? So, who brought J1-P58 to the Balkans specifically?


Again, why would I undertake such a ridiculous and impossible mission?

Life and history have proven to be mysterious. I will refrain from going around and making absurd claims about a certain clade, especially when I have little knowledge of history, archaeology, and anthropology. Genetists that make such statements must have extensive knowledge or help from a real professional to be able to come with answers. Otherwise, they should just say "Ok, this is J1-P58. It's found here, here, and here. Cheers!".
Look man, I'm telling you what the consensus is behind a specific clade. If you have a problem with this then that's your problem, do your own research and come to your own conclusions. If you just want to provide "food for thought" then at least provide evidence which coincides with what we know based on genetics and history so that I consider what you're saying, right now I'm not even considering it.

Sure, we have still got quite a bit to learn, but some things are more certain than others. If we were to base things on uncertainties and take into account every little detail then we wouldn't make much progress at all. It also isn't based on "It's found here, here and here", it's based on a range of things including diversity, TMRCA and aDNA. Don't ignore everything else.

As for J-P58, that's kinda irrelevant but oh well. Long story short, it depends on subclades. Majority of P58 in Albanians comes under P58>YSC234, a clade which took part in the ethnogensis of Proto-Semitic speakers. All the clades (ZS241, Z1884>L829 and Z1884>FGC11) show clear association to the Central Semitic branch which is comprised of the Canaanite, Aramaic, Arabic and some extinct branches. ZS241 and L829 are linked to Canaanite, ZS241 mainly with Jews but possibly also Phoenicians whilst L829 is most certainly linked to the Phoenicians. FGC11 today is the dominant clade among Arabs, though it has Levantine origin and was found in a Bronze Age sample from Lebanon. To sum it all up, it arrived with groups that were originally Semitic speakers, the clades arrived in post-Bronze Age times (likely between Late Bronze Age and Roman period).
 
.................


There is no diversity within CTS10228. The clade that every tested I2a1b belongs is Y3120. Y3120 only descend from one man in 100BC. There is a 1700 year gap between CTS10228 and Y3120. The Frenchman likely forms his own clade under CTS10228 that may shed light to where CTS10228 was, but certainly not where Y3120 was.

There is simply no way what so ever for Y3120 to be descended from Dacians, Getae, Thracians, Pannonians and Slavs all when the survivor that spread the ENTIRETY of it was only born around 100BC some time. The formation age of Y3120 is NOT the tmrca(where all men draw the most distant ancestor). There is simply no way for this clade to be descended from all these far older cultures, and somehow only lived in the late Iron Age.

As Kelmendasi stated, there should be clades of CTS10228 that are brother clades to Y3120, found in Central Europe. Why? because thats where Celts and Germanics were located. There needs to be clades bridging the gap to satisfy the scenario you propose. We need brother clades of I2a1b-CTS10228 in Dacians, Thracians, Pannonian, Getae, Celts etc. There aren't any. Even if we discover them, it won't change the fact that Y3120 survived and spread mostly with Slavs. and possibly(only minimally) with East Germanics, Bulgars, Avars, Huns.

You're ignoring age of branches, and the diversity of their descendant clades when making your assumption. Also, taking a nab at Kelmendasi for having J1 and saying it is related to Ottomans is nonsensical. The TMRCA of his J1-P58 is over 8500 years. He also doesn't share any matches with J1 in the middle east for probably more than 3000 years. So you connecting it to Ottomans to illustrate your point makes little sense. His line has thousands of years to develop and disperse. This is not the case for Y3120, whose descendants come from one man no more than 2100 years. This is specifically why I told you we need ancient samples to push the TMRCA of Y3120 back further for your story to work.

I2a1b has a brother clade in I2a1a which was surely found in Celts. Keep in mind the distance between these 2 western I2a1a and I2a1b is almost 19 thousand years. There is no relation what so ever in a reasonable historical time frame for you to make comparison with Disles.

They can tell the difference between brother clades because theoretically each should be negative for the related brothers branch. Y3120 follows a very linear progression. When Kelmendasi said majority in the Dinaric Alps belong to one clade, he literally is telling you based on the evidence they actually all bottlenecked from 1 guy in the area. Y3120/M458/Z280 are all the main 3 uniting Slavs. Take away Y3120, L1029 and even some Z280 who the hell would they even descend from?

He is right to ask for your evidence but you don't have any genetic finds proving it. Just historical accounts, phenotypes, and culture. That is not evidence, and often times can misconstrue the reality. Which is why we need archaeogenetics. If we find ancient samples pushing the age of Y3120 further in time we can explore these possibilities. Also, there are only 2 descendants of Y3120, the small and rare Greek/Jewish branch, and the young and huge branch which is near entirely Slavic.

My case is also a rare scenario like the Greek branch. However the Albanian ancestor of this haplotype is 1200ybp. Mostly from Diber on both sides, and now its starting to develop sub-clusters in Tosks. Given its current TMRCA and restriction to East Albania/West Macedonia. The likely scenario is the earliest settlement of of Slavic tribes around the later Proto-Albanian phase, likely absorbed it and spread exclusively with Albanians then on. Maybe it was a Romanized Slav, or as you said one time a Goth. However we would need a pre-dibra cluster among Albanians, or have the TMRCA pushed back further in time prior to the migration. Then we can make some of those possible associations. However right now theres almost 1000 years between the basal L1029 ancestor and my Albanian haplotype. Given what we know at the moment, Proto-Slavs are the best bet. Also they were not all warlike as you claim. Some around Albania and Greece HELPED the Byzantines against their warlike brethren.

As far as Sardinia, you are forgetting the Byzantines could have brought assimilated Slavic lineages. Also, there was a Slavic led Taifa from the Balaeric Islands. He led a unsuccessful campaign against Sardinia. He also hired many Slavic mercenaries and guess where they ruled for 1-2 years? Cagliari...exactly where these Slavic lineages showed up.

There is really no way for you to tell whether the impact was Vandals, Goths, Byzantine Romans, Slavs without first having actual Vandal/Goth/Byzantine Roman remains that are positive for Y3120 or any of the R1a clades in question. I am sure they will show up but it will be from cross assimilation and not root. So far all medieval Slavic samples are R1a/Y3120. Even the Viking samples with Y3120 and L1029(however mixed they may be) were "Polish like" genetically. Sure this was 9th century and later. Poles have some Germanic and Scandinavian admixtures but that shouldn't change what the results showed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujāhid_al-ʿĀmirī

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_Dénia

Also, the study I referenced from the last page will put a nail in the coffin to any further arguments. It will be the first study of its kind incorporating all disciplines. Over 6000 graves spanning 400-900CE in Central and East Europe.

https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

“The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”
 

Culture or songs alone do not confirm the origin of a people, but 100 little facts like music, speech, dress, DNA, appearance, etc. altogether do give an almost clear picture of a group's origin.

Yes, in the Turkish period and earlier exist migrations from Greece to Slovenia etc and it is certain that Croatian population also receives influences from these areas but they still have mostly Slavic genetics i.e. different origin than peoples from Greece, Albania etc. That is why i am saying it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone.

You think I care about your petty South Slavic differences among each other that I get involved in Serbian forums? I don't speak Serbian nor do I care about your internal problems.

You have the same arguments as Serbs that was valid in the 19th and the early 20th century, I was a little worried about you.
 

This thread has been viewed 32697 times.

Back
Top