I2 in Peloponnesus, Greece. Origins?

There is no diversity within CTS10228. The clade that every tested I2a1b belongs is Y3120. Y3120 only descend from one man in 100BC. There is a 1700 year gap between CTS10228 and Y3120. The Frenchman likely forms his own clade under CTS10228 that may shed light to where CTS10228 was, but certainly not where Y3120 was.
Correct.

There is simply no way what so ever for Y3120 to be descended from Dacians, Getae, Thracians, Pannonians and Slavs all when the survivor that spread the ENTIRETY of it was only born around 100BC some time. The formation age of Y3120 is NOT the tmrca(where all men draw the most distant ancestor). There is simply no way for this clade to be descended from all these far older cultures, and somehow only lived in the late Iron Age.
Are you sure you're talking to me? Are you even reading what I'm saying? Why would you answer that Y3120 couldn't have descended from Dacians, Getae, Pannonian, or Slav? I really don't get your argument here. So unnecessary.

As Kelmendasi stated, there should be clades of CTS10228 that are brother clades to Y3120, found in Central Europe. Why? because thats where Celts and Germanics were located.
Maybe there are, maybe they all died. Celts were also located in Pannonia, Carpathians, and Goths were also in Crimea.

There needs to be clades bridging the gap to satisfy the scenario you propose. We need brother clades of I2a1b-CTS10228 in Dacians, Thracians, Pannonian, Getae, Celts etc. There aren't any. Even if we discover them, it won't change the fact that Y3120 survived and spread mostly with Slavs. and possibly(only minimally) with East Germanics, Bulgars, Avars, Huns.
I'm not proposing scenarios, I'm ridiculing the confidence you all show with this theory that "it spread with Slavs".

Can you disprove the version that maybe Y3120 was running away from Slavs? Can you disprove that it was absorbed much later by Slavs? Can you disprove that they were captured Goths, Celts, or Scythians, Romanized Dacians forced to fight for them like the Huns did with almost everyone?

Now that is the only thing I'm proposing, to open the mind and learn some more history. Slavs weren't the exclusive people making history in those years. Were all Italic people Roman? No, but it's been 2000 years that they are. Should we call every single clade in Italy Roman? So why simplify the origin of Y3120 like we do by calling every East European a Slav/Russian?

Also, taking a nab at Kelmendasi for having J1 and saying it is related to Ottomans is nonsensical. The TMRCA of his J1-P58 is over 8500 years. He also doesn't share any matches with J1 in the middle east for probably more than 3000 years. So you connecting it to Ottomans to illustrate your point makes little sense. His line has thousands of years to develop and disperse. This is not the case for Y3120, whose descendants come from one man no more than 2100 years. This is specifically why I told you we need ancient samples to push the TMRCA of Y3120 back further for your story to work.
I can't believe you actually thought I was being serious with the "Ottoman Sipahis" sarcasm.

They can tell the difference between brother clades because theoretically each should be negative for the related brothers branch. Y3120 follows a very linear progression. When Kelmendasi said majority in the Dinaric Alps belong to one clade, he literally is telling you based on the evidence they actually all bottlenecked from 1 guy in the area. Y3120/M458/Z280 are all the main 3 uniting Slavs. Take away Y3120, L1029 and even some Z280 who the hell would they even descend from?
Unnecessary lesson. If we knew each other, I'd say even offensive.

As for Slavs, you have to open your eyes that they were a minority in Eastern Europe. Germans, Daco-Thracians, Scythians and Sarmatians were some of the most numerous tribes in antiquity. I didn't count Celts since they moved East later.

He is right to ask for your evidence but you don't have any genetic finds proving it. Just historical accounts, phenotypes, and culture. That is not evidence, and often times can misconstrue the reality. Which is why we need archaeogenetics. If we find ancient samples pushing the age of Y3120 further in time we can explore these possibilities. Also, there are only 2 descendants of Y3120, the small and rare Greek/Jewish branch, and the young and huge branch which is near entirely Slavic.
I don't use my evidence to come up with conclusive statements like you 2, I use them to question these false statements that can only be verified with ancient DNA.

My case is also a rare scenario like the Greek branch. However the Albanian ancestor of this haplotype is 1200ybp. Mostly from Diber on both sides, and now its starting to develop sub-clusters in Tosks. Given its current TMRCA and restriction to East Albania/West Macedonia. The likely scenario is the earliest settlement of of Slavic tribes around the later Proto-Albanian phase, likely absorbed it and spread exclusively with Albanians then on. Maybe it was a Romanized Slav, or as you said one time a Goth. However we would need a pre-dibra cluster among Albanians, or have the TMRCA pushed back further in time prior to the migration. Then we can make some of those possible associations. However right now theres almost 1000 years between the basal L1029 ancestor and my Albanian haplotype. Given what we know at the moment, Proto-Slavs are the best bet. Also they were not all warlike as you claim. Some around Albania and Greece HELPED the Byzantines against their warlike brethren.
Actually we don't know anything about Proto-Slavs, just theories based on findings that could belong to any given tribe in that area. We know so much more of Dacians, Getae, and Scythians and archaeologist cannot pinpoint that a certain settlement belonged to a specific tribe based on findings. Tribes living in vicinity were pretty much the same. Now how would you know that a discovered settlement in Dnieper was Slavic or Scythian? Answer is you can't, but Poles and Russians will jump into theories immediately.

As far as Sardinia, you are forgetting the Byzantines could have brought assimilated Slavic lineages. Also, there was a Slavic led Taifa from the Balaeric Islands. He led a unsuccessful campaign against Sardinia. He also hired many Slavic mercenaries and guess where they ruled for 1-2 years? Cagliari...exactly where these Slavic lineages showed up.
Fair enough. I hope you use the same attitude of questioning and considering alternatives with the Y3120 case as well.

There is really no way for you to tell whether the impact was Vandals, Goths, Byzantine Romans, Slavs without first having actual Vandal/Goth/Byzantine Roman remains that are positive for Y3120 or any of the R1a clades in question.
Now we're talking. Completely agree.

Also, the study I referenced from the last page will put a nail in the coffin to any further arguments. It will be the first study of its kind incorporating all disciplines. Over 6000 graves spanning 400-900CE in Central and East Europe.

https://www.ias.edu/press-releases/2019/erc

“The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS) and its international partners have received a €10 million Synergy Grant from the European Research Council (ERC) to fund a multidisciplinary study of more than 100 medieval cemeteries located across central and eastern Europe. The project, HistoGenes, will seek to understand the impact of migrations and mobility on the population of the Carpathian Basin from 400–900 CE, based on a comprehensive analysis of samples from 6,000 ancient burial sites. HistoGenes will, for the first time, unite historians, archaeologists, geneticists, anthropologists, and specialists in bioinformatics, isotope analysis, and other scientific methods in understanding this key period of European history.”
Looking forward to this, although I believe they're wasting 10 million Euros on the least interesting region of Europe and specifically during the Middle Ages. For the sake of I2a I wish for ancient tombs in these regions rather than Medieval.
 
Yes, in the Turkish period and earlier exist migrations from Greece to Slovenia etc and it is certain that Croatian population also receives influences from these areas but they still have mostly Slavic genetics i.e. different origin than peoples from Greece, Albania etc. That is why i am saying it has nothing to do with the origin of anyone.


You have the same arguments as Serbs that was valid in the 19th and the early 20th century, I was a little worried about you.
Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.
 
Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.

Vlachs migrations from that area(Albania, Greece, Macedonia, southern Serbia, Montenegro, probably Bulgaria) to Croatia and beyond. Genetics will say more specifically(from which area) in the future.
 
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Jesus Guy!
Listen ALBanac of the internet studies, let me give you an advice, You are too emotional. So much passion cause your narrative is challenged? As if you are serving an agenda.
Then again it could be the standard american diet full of phytoestrogens and insulin spiking corn fructose. If that's the case you should restore your manhood with a Keto diet.
NOw, i Understand that arguments based on logic, deduction, paleodemographcis(the preposterous argument that in an era that the whole European populations declined, one in the midst and epicenter of the population movements truculence and raids, not only didnt but it experienced a million fold increase is too ..sweet not to mention it), archaeology,geography etc wont impact you(how could they) so i will repeat the same original questions again.

Instead of yapping your yap emotionally with armchair psychoanalysis, how about you put your Albanian foot where your Albanian mouth is and show me the evidence that argue your case.
With reputable peer reviewed studies.
REmember your claims:

a) ....that the haplogroups found in Greece are of the clades you claim

b) ....that they form 30 to 50% of the lineages found in Greece
(we must include this new claims too)
b1)....that of those clades the overwhelming majority are of the CTS10228 substrata

[good luck with the aboves, cause you know full well that the phylogenetic studies done on greeks do not go into those depths]
[..which shows how disingenuous you are. The absolute confidence in your narrative before even the data are in and that while you make appeals to science]

b2)....that men of the CTS10228 trace their origin in a single ancestor from 100bc
c)...that they arrived with the Slavic migrations.
d)...that all the above form the scientific consensus and settled science.

Instead of pulling a hissy fit why dont you try to civilly answered them?
How difficult can it be if they are based on ''science and the scientific consensus'' ?
There should be hundreds of papers on the issue.
 
Jesus Guy!
Listen ALBanac of the internet studies, let me give you an advice, You are too emotional. So much passion cause your narrative is challenged? As if you are serving an agenda.
Then again it could be the standard american diet full of phytoestrogens and insulin spiking corn fructose. If that's the case you should restore your manhood with a Keto diet.
Albania doesn't even have McDonald's nor does it need it and is less affected than Greece with the so-called American diet. Remember you're the most obese country in Europe.

Keto diet is overestimated as carbs, fats, and protein are equally important for your metabolism and well being in general, in addition to the horrible side effect of hair loss that keto might cause within 3-6 months.

Now back on topic vlachos.

NOw, i Understand that arguments based on logic, deduction, paleodemographcis(the preposterous argument that in an era that the whole European populations declined, one in the midst and epicenter of the population movements truculence and raids, not only didnt but it experienced a million fold increase is too ..sweet not to mention it), archaeology,geography etc wont impact you(how could they) so i will repeat the same original questions again.

Instead of yapping your yap emotionally with armchair psychoanalysis, how about you put your Albanian foot where your Albanian mouth is and show me the evidence that argue your case.
With reputable peer reviewed studies.
REmember your claims:

a) ....that the haplogroups found in Greece are of the clades you claim

b) ....that they form 30 to 50% of the lineages found in Greece
(we must include this new claims too)
b1)....that of those clades the overwhelming majority are of the CTS10228 substrata

[good luck with the aboves, cause you know full well that the phylogenetic studies done on greeks do not go into those depths]
[..which shows how disingenuous you are. The absolute confidence in your narrative before even the data are in and that while you make appeals to science]

b2)....that men of the CTS10228 trace their origin in a single ancestor from 100bc
c)...that they arrived with the Slavic migrations.
d)...that all the above form the scientific consensus and settled science.
CTS10228 and R1a can go up to 40% in the Northern regions, and they're recent arrivals not your prophetic Ancient Greeks. They weren't even Greeks to be begin with in antiquity.

Do your own research, we're not Germany or US to feed you with info while all you do is talk and complain.

Instead of pulling a hissy fit why dont you try to civilly answered them?
How difficult can it be if they are based on ''science and the scientific consensus'' ?
There should be hundreds of papers on the issue.
It's not the duty of the knowledgeable to educate the ignorant. It's an option, but maybe in a parallel universe.
 
I don't understand why you lot are so insecure when it comes to having Slavic DNA, complexes much....

The reason why I2a-Y3120 is so high in modern day South Slavs is because of founder effects, simply put they had far more male offspring than the others.
All The South Slavs sub groups and Balkan groups have different ratios of R1a to I2, even those in very close proximity.
They ranges are from 1 to 9 and 1 to 7 to 3 to 1!
How does that corresponds with the theory of a recent common origin from a specific isolated region?
Not very well.

Frequency means literally nothing.
The relative uniformity of the demographic profiles of regions
and the correspondence of genetics to historical migrations, beg to differ.

Fact is that CTS10228 and Y3120 don't reach high diversity in the Balkans, but they do in Eastern Europe.
That's a claim. A claim that will remain a claim until it can be substantiated with the respective results from scientifically gathered samples and proper analyses.
These are the questions that you need to answer:
Is there EVEN a single peer reviewed population study in the Balkans that test for the markers? No?
Can increased or decreased diversity of a marker, be explained/influenced by other factors?

Plus the TMRCA fits with Slavic expansion.
That's another claim.
The reported TMRCA is based on what?
How many y-dna dating methods that yield wildly different ranges of timelines for the same samples are there?
What the ranges of results? -/+ 20-40%? or several folds differentiation?

The problem is that the Slavic expansion can be explained only by the specific timeline of the methodology that made the above claim.Even a 20% differentiation (500 years) could blow this theory out of the water(yet alone a bigger differentiation)


The argument that the Slavs had no genetic influence because of the mountain ranges in the Balkans is pure nonsense and fantasy
.
i ve never made that claim, i ve made the claim that there were hunter gatherers civilizations in the Balkan interior reported by archaeology, that in order for this theory to make sense they must have gone totally extincted, and that before they even they came in contact with other peoples.
This is evident by how the Slavic culture, language and genetics were able to be spread across the Balkans
.
Yes it's called a cultural shift, which is the main way it occurs.
Bulgarians cluster better with Greeks than other South Slavs, yet alone east Slavs.
In fact they probably cluster better with South Italians too, than east Slavs.
 
Migrations from Greece to Slovenia? Never heard of, otherwise those massive waves of Greeks would have reached Albania first. On the contrary, what actually happened is that at least Albanians moved massive from North to South and ended up becoming the majority in many Greek regions and islands. But vice-versa? Highly unlikely.
Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
 
Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
I'm familiar with all the psychotic theories that you mention but I had never heard of the "child harvesting" one? hahahahaha

Please enlighten me. What do you even mean?
 
Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .

Zip it you ubiquitous taint.
 
I don't understand why you lot are so insecure when it comes to having Slavic DNA, complexes much....


All The South Slavs sub groups and Balkan groups have different ratios of R1a to I2, even those in very close proximity.
They ranges are from 1 to 9 and 1 to 7 to 3 to 1!
How does that corresponds with the theory of a recent common origin from a specific isolated region?
Not very well.


The relative uniformity of the demographic profiles of regions
and the correspondence of genetics to historical migrations, beg to differ.


That's a claim. A claim that will remain a claim until it can be substantiated with the respective results from scientifically gathered samples and proper analyses.
These are the questions that you need to answer:
Is there EVEN a single peer reviewed population study in the Balkans that test for the markers? No?
Can increased or decreased diversity of a marker, be explained/influenced by other factors?


That's another claim.
The reported TMRCA is based on what?
How many y-dna dating methods that yield wildly different ranges of timelines for the same samples are there?
What the ranges of results? -/+ 20-40%? or several folds differentiation?

The problem is that the Slavic expansion can be explained only by the specific timeline of the methodology that made the above claim.Even a 20% differentiation (500 years) could blow this theory out of the water(yet alone a bigger differentiation)


.
i ve never made that claim, i ve made the claim that there were hunter gatherers civilizations in the Balkan interior reported by archaeology, that in order for this theory to make sense they must have gone totally extincted, and that before they even they came in contact with other peoples.
.
Yes it's called a cultural shift, which is the main way it occurs.
Bulgarians cluster better with Greeks than other South Slavs, yet alone east Slavs.
In fact they probably cluster better with South Italians too, than east Slavs.
Provide evidence or explain how frequencies and ratios matter, till then, your argument is nonsense.

I-CTS10228 and Y3120 having highest diversity in Eastern Europe isn't a claim, it's a fact. We have numerous NGS and Big-Y CTS10228+ results that show us how many clades are under CTS10228 and where they are located. The region of Europe which is most diverse is Eastern Europe, especially Ukraine, Poland and Belarus. You bringing up the fact that there isn't a peer reviewed paper on I-CTS10228 is just an excuse you're using, why would we need a paper when NGS results can already tell us these things?

It's a fact that the TMRCA coincides with the Slavic expansion based on our current results, https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/.

Support your claim that I-Y3120 is a Balkan HG marker with evidence, you haven't provided any evidence what so ever. We have multiple Balkan HG samples, they were R-V88 and I2a for the most part. The I2a fell under M223 (primarily M223>Z161), none were CTS10228. https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778. On the other hand I-CTS10228 has been found in Medieval Poland and Russia, and L621 was found in a SHG sample from Motala.

Bulgarians still cluster with other South Slavs for the most part, it's only Northern/Mainland Greeks that cluster with Bulgarians and that's because of Slavic input in Greeks as well as Balkan input in Bulgarians.

Map of P37 branches and their locations (you can use this to see the diversity of CTS10228):
p.png
 
The I2a-CTS10228-Y3120 YFull tree is quite Slavic. The anomaly is Y18331, which has zero of the many East European and Balkan non-Jewish Slavs who are CTS10228. Jews were not native to East Europe, and they’re the only East Europeans with the Y18331 branch. It seems to have had a different migration, possibly leaving very early, leaving behind no descendants in today’s East Europe.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
 
Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .
This post screams insecure.
 
Zip it you ubiquitous taint.
Another emotional out burst from our friend.
I predict another one buddy brace your self.

Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.
 
This post screams insecure.
The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries. Where did you think the Bektashi and Sufi influenced Islam in Albanian came from?
The Ottoman slavery(only by muslims) is an undeniable historical fact.
That Albanians were the subcontractors of Ottomans in the Western Balkans, is also an undeniable historical fact.
Forced islamizations is also known and undeniable historical fact. Catholics and non canonical Christians were forced to Islam under the fear of the sword as ottomans didn't tolerated them(the little that did tolerate other Christians).That's how catholic Albanians and Montenegrins became Muslims, Paulican Christians became the Pomak Muslim, Bosnian church christians became bosniak muslims, Cretan and Cypriot Catholics became the turkocretans and turkocypriots etc etc.


I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.
 
Another emotional out burst from our friend.
I predict another one buddy brace your self.

Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.
You're not counting the Orthodox Albanians that you giftis are trying to absorb for hundreds of years because you need men that can fight.

What was the population of Greece during the 19th century?

And which region in Greece are you from?
 
The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries.
True, and we're the population that suffered the child harvesting the most, because it was our young boys they were after not yours. Yours would never make elite soldiers and that feature of ours (together with other mountain Montenegrin, Bosnian, and Serbian tribes) was our doom.

Greeks were used to do slave work, house chores, tent servants. Even the greatest hellenophile Lord Byron despises you for crying under the Turkish whip.

Romans made fun of you and your effeminate nature. Byzantines disposed you to Italy and put Albanians in your lands because they needed war recruits not theater clowns and boylovers.

All the Turkish medics were Greek, attending the wounds of their masters, translating for them, and who knows what your male ancestors they did at night in their master's tents.

I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.
What are you doing in a forum where genetics are discussed? Don't you see that 70%+ of Albanians belong to the trio of E-V13, J2b-L283, and R1b, the rest belonging to minor clades like Germanic I1 and I2, Eastern I2a and R1a, and few local J2a and G.

Where are all these mameluks settled in our lands?
 
Albanian population, the whole of it, wasnt more than 200 000 by the 1800. That's based on the censuses the Pashaliks did. Albanians reporting on the Albanian numbers.
Modern Albanians is to a great extend a product of slave soldiers ,numbered in the tens of thousands in the late 18th century(see Egyptian mameluks and turkoalbanians corps in Peloponnese), child harvesting, slavery and mass islamizations. Just Turkoalbanian slave soldiers and mercenaries were numbering in the tens of thousands at the time Albanian population was few hundreds of thousands.
The mass migration movement of Albanians in Greece is another myth Albanian believes. What mass migrations are you dreaming fella? Proper Albania probably was thoroughly depopulated by the Ottoman conquest. The population should have been in the tens of thousands.Venetians did relocated few Albanian mercenaries in Peloponnese, but they were mostly replanted in Italy with the ottoman conquest.The Turkoalbanians bandits settled in the region to avert revolts were thoroughly ''processed'' in the late 1700s and early 1800s by the Greek revolutionaries and what of the yoke survived fled to the north .

Problem is that you consider all present-day Greek genetics to be original Greek genetics.

beginning with the Cycladic civilization on the islands of the Aegean Sea at around 3200 BC,[29] the Minoan civilization in Crete (2700–1500 BC),[28][30] and then the Mycenaean civilization on the mainland (1600–1100 BC).[30] These civilizations possessed writing, the Minoans writing in an undeciphered script known as Linear A, and the Mycenaeans in Linear B, an early form of Greek.

The end of the Dark Ages is traditionally dated to 776 BC, the year of the first Olympic Games.[34] The Iliad and the Odyssey, the foundational texts of Western literature, are believed to have been composed by Homer in the 7th or 8th centuries BC.

Original Greek genetics is from that time, and you have to look for branches of Y haplotypes from that time which would have some kind of connection with Greek area. It's as if I would say that Croatian haplotype is E1b V13(balkans branches), but we have assimilated these peoples who are originally Illyrians or Vlachs (Albanians, possibly Vlachs from Bulgaria, Greece etc)

You need archeogenetic data from Greek area or proof in living genetics if you mean to prove something. You are not presenting any concrete evidence.
 
The slave Soldiers corps of the Ottoman empire is a undeniable historical fact, that's what Mamelukes literary means. That they came primarily from balkanic Christians is also an undeniable fact. That they numbered in the tens of thousands is also a reasonable estimation.
The child harvesting is undeniable historical fact, know as Yenisaries. Where did you think the Bektashi and Sufi influenced Islam in Albanian came from?
The Ottoman slavery(only by muslims) is an undeniable historical fact.
That Albanians were the subcontractors of Ottomans in the Western Balkans, is also an undeniable historical fact.
Forced islamizations is also known and undeniable historical fact. Catholics and non canonical Christians were forced to Islam under the fear of the sword as ottomans didn't tolerated them(the little that did tolerate other Christians).That's how catholic Albanians and Montenegrins became Muslims, Paulican Christians became the Pomak Muslim, Bosnian church christians became bosniak muslims, Cretan and Cypriot Catholics became the turkocretans and turkocypriots etc etc.


I ll say that All the above that continued for 4 centuries changed the Albanian nation beyond recognition.
You may not like it, but Albanians became synonym to Muslims in the ottoman era,and all of the people that fallen under the rule of the Albanians pashaliks and were unlucky to fallen in the above categories gradually were albanianized.
My guy you're just insecure. You're insecure about your Arvanite/Albanian ancestry so you try to play it off as Albanized Greek.

The vast majority of Albanians didn't convert because of "fear of the sword" but because of other factors, mainly socio-economic and political. Christians and Jews were forced to pay Jizya, which at times could be extremely high, it was beneficial to convert. This whole "fear of the sword" thing just seems to be Greek propaganda. Provide evidence for "forced conversion" will you?

Montenegrins weren't Catholic by the way, they were/are Orthodox. The Catholics in Montenegro were mainly centered in the SE and they were in fact ethnic Albanians.

If Albanian was synonymous with "Muslim" then why were terms such as "Arnaut", "Arvanite" and "Arbanas" used to denote Albanians in an ethnic sense. I'll not deny that a large percentage of Balkan Muslims were ethnic Albanians, but Muslim wasn't synonymous with Albanian.
 
Another emotional out burst from our friend.
I predict another one buddy brace your self.

Ottoman census 1897 of vilayet of Janina : Albanians 250 000
Estimation of vilayet of Scutari : 200 000 Albanians
Ottoman census of 1897 vilayet of Monastir: Albanians 220 000
Ottoman census of 1912 of Kosovo: Albanians around 400 000
Taking in mind that those census are highly inflated favoring the Muslim element, Turks and Albanians are synonyms in them, and the changing borders of the provinces, i would say circa 1900 The total population of Albanians was close to 800 000.
Taking in mind the growth of population of the contemporary countries that didn't experienced war or famines over the 19th centuries was 4 fold increase(or more) , i would say 200 000 in 1800, give and take 100 000, is very realistic.

The one with emotional outburst is you. Uninformed child. Look up the definition of the term. it is exactly what you are. Stop polluting the thread with your "know it all" nonsense.
 

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