Albanians = Illyrian

[Ernekar]

So what is your claim here?


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That if we suppose that it is true when markod says there has been an increase of CHG in the western balkans since the Iron age, that this increase is mostly due to the fact that people from the western balkans were part of the Roman empire(which also saw an CHG increase during imperial times).

Also, that genetic input from asia minor to the balkans was minimal(almost non-existant) during the middle ages and the ottoman empire. And that this minimal genetic influence was mostly due to people bringing in women from asia minor, because when looking at albanian Y-DNA we see that there couldn't really have been many men from asia minor settling on albanian lands.

When we add to this that those asia minor women were mostly from Izmir, we should expect that genetic input from "true" turks was even lower, due to the fact that Izmir genetically were basically just greeks and albanians who also spoke turkish.

[blevins13]

The CHG shift is too strong, and it doesn't affect Bosnians and Croats, who presumably mixed with the local populations. So you'd need an influx of Anatolian women after the Slavs came to Bosnia.

It is not clear what you are suggesting here? So what CHG shift tells us about Albanians?


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[Fatherland]

According to our project E-v13 + J2-L283 + R1b are about 75 % at Ghegs, and 50 % at Tosks. Interestingly J2-L283 is only 7 % at Tosks.

Established Illyrians for sure had many other haplogroups too. Like for example J2a influence from Mycenaeans.

EDIT: Now i just noticed that Tosks have more J2a then J2b2.

90%+ of the 3 main Albanian haplogroups in Ghegs last time I checked. The more you move towards the pure Gheg regions, the only haplotypes you will find are J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and EV13, with minor I1.

[Fatherland]

Long story short, no matter the thousands of facts brought to prove the Illyrian origin, as long as there exist Thracian or Dacian or whatever else "hints", the unfriendly community will always prefer the Thracian/Dacian hypothesis while still acting open-minded and neutral by not completely refuting the Illyrian hypothesis in order to not lose face and credibility.

So anything but Illyrian. They're loyal to their nation and their forefathers who tried so hard to make us late migrants.

If they only visited Albania and paid close attention to phenotypes and then go to Wikipedia to see the faces of all the Roman Emperors of Illyrian or Thracian origin (including some real Romans) they'll understand the striking resemblance and continuation. Obviously this is not "scientific" evidence unlike dear Georgiev and his bs theories about the lack of maritime words despite the fact that his ancestors changed their language at least 4 times.

@markod and @ygorcs, is it your Slavic heritage that makes you (perhaps even subconsciously) so dismissive of anything related to the Illyrians?

Marko is probably Croatian, he is just a South Slav coping with the fact that he's not of Illyrian descent.

Funny thing is, the more we move towards the pure Gheg regions of the north and northwest, the less West Asian & East Med the Albanians there score, without any Slavic admix, but more of a North-Western shift instead.

Most of the West Asian & East Med admix we get in the first place is mediated from the Ancient Greek direction. Makes sense, since Greeks score the highest West Asian & East Med of the entire Balkans.

[Dema]

90%+ of the 3 main Albanian haplogroups in Ghegs last time I checked. The more you move towards the pure Gheg regions, the only haplotypes you will find are J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and EV13, with minor I1.

I'm pretty sure its 75 % at Ghegs and 50 % at Tosks - http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
We got lots of new samples lately.

There is plenty of other haplogroups in Gheg areas...

For example there is our very interesting Dibra R1a cluster, Very very Gheg haplogroup.. Even guy with Gega surname got it..

[Nik]

Has anyone considered the fact that Mycenaeans and Minoans had a lot of CHG/Anatolia admix and that simply means it's a local ancient Balkan admix? What makes you think the CHG admix is medieval or from late antiquity?

Even the Iron Age Thracian was Aegean shifted while the Bronze Age Thracian was Scandinavian-like. An average IQ would understand what that means.

We can't use Northern Balkan samples from 2000 BC or earlier and assume Iron Age Illyrians were the same. At that period the arriving IE tribes hadn't fully blended into the local population and within the same region you could probably find a one Steppe shifted and one Anatolian shifted individual.

The second problem is that we don't have samples from Albania itself so why would we use an early pre-Illyrian sample from Croatia to prove the origin of people living in modern Albania.

Shall we not talk about the contribution of one of the most dominant haplogroups in Europe before the IE waves, haplogroup G?

With is I'm not justifying 100% of the CHG admixture but rather the vast majority. Of course there could have been Illyrians and Albanians that brought wives from Asia Minor and further as well as various people settled during the Ottoman Empire, so using the tribal Ghegs would give us a clear idea of the pre-Ottoman Albanians and even late Illyrians.

[Fatherland]

Has anyone considered the fact that Mycenaeans and Minoans had a lot of CHG/Anatolia admix and that simply means it's a local ancient Balkan admix? What makes you think the CHG admix is medieval or from late antiquity?

Even the Iron Age Thracian was Aegean shifted while the Bronze Age Thracian was Scandinavian-like. An average IQ would understand what that means.

We can't use Northern Balkan samples from 2000 BC or earlier and assume Iron Age Illyrians were the same. At that period the arriving IE tribes hadn't fully blended into the local population and within the same region you could probably find a one Steppe shifted and one Anatolian shifted individual.

The second problem is that we don't have samples from Albania itself so why would we use an early pre-Illyrian sample from Croatia to prove the origin of people living in modern Albania.

Shall we not talk about the contribution of one of the most dominant haplogroups in Europe before the IE waves, haplogroup G?

With is I'm not justifying 100% of the CHG admixture but rather the vast majority. Of course there could have been Illyrians and Albanians that brought wives from Asia Minor and further as well as various people settled during the Ottoman Empire, so using the tribal Ghegs would give us a clear idea of the pre-Ottoman Albanians and even late Illyrians.

This would be unthinkable among the anti-Albanian members of these foras. Since our CHG is supposedly from Turko-Arab-Caucas-Shiptar imports from Sicily 1042 AD.

[Ernekar]

Has anyone considered the fact that Mycenaeans and Minoans had a lot of CHG/Anatolia admix and that simply means it's a local ancient Balkan admix? What makes you think the CHG admix is medieval or from late antiquity?

Even the Iron Age Thracian was Aegean shifted while the Bronze Age Thracian was Scandinavian-like. An average IQ would understand what that means.

We can't use Northern Balkan samples from 2000 BC or earlier and assume Iron Age Illyrians were the same. At that period the arriving IE tribes hadn't fully blended into the local population and within the same region you could probably find a one Steppe shifted and one Anatolian shifted individual.

The second problem is that we don't have samples from Albania itself so why would we use an early pre-Illyrian sample from Croatia to prove the origin of people living in modern Albania.

Shall we not talk about the contribution of one of the most dominant haplogroups in Europe before the IE waves, haplogroup G?

With is I'm not justifying 100% of the CHG admixture but rather the vast majority. Of course there could have been Illyrians and Albanians that brought wives from Asia Minor and further as well as various people settled during the Ottoman Empire, so using the tribal Ghegs would give us a clear idea of the pre-Ottoman Albanians and even late Illyrians.

I agree with basically everything in this post.

It would make great sense if there were pockets in the region where people had different ancestries. Like pockets of CHG rich populations, pockets of steppe rich populations, isolated pockets of neolithic populations who had not yet received steppe admixture, etc. etc. And as you say, we already see this in ancient DNA so far. Except the neolithic pockets, but i am sure those will show up too, since the geography of the region would let some populations stay isolated from steppe admixture longer than other populations on the peninsula.

The illyrians would probably only emerge later after a process of semi-homogenization of those populations of the western balkans.

Also what we really really need are some inland + coastal illyrian samples from 800 BC to 500 AD Montenegro, Kosova and Albania. Those samples would really shed some light on how the Illyrian tribes evolved after this homogenization process, and how they evolved during roman rule.

[Fatherland]

I agree with basically everything in this post.

It would make great sense if there were pockets in the region where people had different ancestries. Like pockets of CHG rich populations, pockets of steppe rich populations, isolated pockets of neolithic populations who had not yet received steppe admixture, etc. etc. And as you say, we already see this in ancient DNA so far. Except the neolithic pockets, but i am sure those will show up too, since the geography of the region would let some populations stay isolated from steppe admixture longer than other populations on the peninsula.

The illyrians would probably only emerge later after a process of semi-homogenization of those populations of the western balkans.

Also what we really really need are some inland + coastal illyrian samples from 800 BC to 500 AD Montenegro, Kosova and Albania. Those samples would really shed some light on how the Illyrian tribes evolved after this homogenization process, and how they evolved during roman rule.

Yeah, the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya samples from Ukraine alone were 25% CHG, and that's a big deal aswell.

[Ernekar]

Yeah, the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya samples from Ukraine alone were 25% CHG, and that's a big deal aswell.

Yea they had a good amount of CHG, I don't remember the exact numbers to be honest. But iirc the early bronze age populations of the steppe were primarily a mix of EHG and CHG, probably in varying proportions.

[Dibran]

I'm pretty sure its 75 % at Ghegs and 50 % at Tosks - http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
We got lots of new samples lately.

There is plenty of other haplogroups in Gheg areas...

For example there is our very interesting Dibra R1a cluster, Very very Gheg haplogroup.. Even guy with Gega surname got it..

Our Dibra cluster is so far the only confirmed Albanian founder effect in R1a. Gega like myself is from Okshtun. It still likely arrived with Proto-Slavic tribes, or carried minimally by Goths in the early middle ages before incubating among Proto-Albanians. It still is a northern barbarian lineage. Even though it took part in Albanian ethnogenesis, it was not around during the Illyrian time frame. Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg. The rest of R1a/I2a1b seems more general and Southern derived. I know 2 Mat samples in CTS1211 may have their own founder effect. Of course none of them tested any further so who knows.

It is important to remember Diber is also under sampled, like many other areas. Regardless if its 75 or 90, it still seems majority of the lineages among Ghegs are paleo-balkan in origin.

[Ownstyler]

Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg.

There are no Tosk Dibra cluster results in the project so far, but there are 2 Tosks from two studies that fall in that cluster. There is ALB371fta from Boattini et al and ht147 from Ferri et al. Maybe they are from the Elbasan-Librazhd, maybe Gramsh area, but still south of Shkumbin, which would qualify them as Tosks. But I agree that it does look more common around Diber.

[Dema]

Our Dibra cluster is so far the only confirmed Albanian founder effect in R1a. Gega like myself is from Okshtun. It still likely arrived with Proto-Slavic tribes, or carried minimally by Goths in the early middle ages before incubating among Proto-Albanians. It still is a northern barbarian lineage. Even though it took part in Albanian ethnogenesis, it was not around during the Illyrian time frame. Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg. The rest of R1a/I2a1b seems more general and Southern derived. I know 2 Mat samples in CTS1211 may have their own founder effect. Of course none of them tested any further so who knows.

It is important to remember Diber is also under sampled, like many other areas. Regardless if its 75 or 90, it still seems majority of the lineages among Ghegs are paleo-balkan in origin.

Yes i agree, i only mentioned your clade as example as it is found mostly among Ghegs and its neiter R1b v13 or l283. I can give plenty of other examples also. It may be of Proto-Slavic tribes but since becoming Albanian it spread exclusively among Albanians (TMRCA 1200 years).

It is exclusively Albanian Gheg R1a clade nowadays. If you find me any Slav with it and not having earlier separation i will accuse him for being of Albanian origin : )


Most of Albanian E-v13 R1b and J2-L283 clades are most likely Illyrian in origin, however they represent only a tiny fraction of once all of ancient Illyrian lines.
After severe bottlenecks, most of Albanian lines spread in last 1000 - 1500 years. While the rest bottlenecked out of Albanian ethnos thru wars, assimilation, natural disasters or just bad luck with making baby boys..
(for example we can notice this thru ancient Dalmatian sample where its closest relatives are in Italy and then second row of relatives among Albanians, meaning he bottlenecked out completely of Dalmatia where he used to live in ancient time, closest brother clade found shelter in Italy, therefore surviving, and next wave of relatives found among Albanians, naturally, as they are whats left of once ancient Illyrians living in Dalmatia.)
But we can notice this also thru modern living samples like E-v13>PH1204 bottlenecking out of Albanians thru assimilation.

Also, we should differentiate proto-IE with Illyrians, as fully developed Illyrians had for sure Neolithic remains, Phoenician, Celtic, Mycenaean, Sardinian I2a, Italic, Paleolithic remains and others people they encountered and colived with.

For example its known thru history that Celts were invading Macedonia and targeting Greece in 3 century BCE, also many of them settled in Illyrian territories and coolived with Illyrians. Also they were targeted by Illyrians when retreating from Macedonia.. Now where are Celtic haplogroups?

Its not that Illyrians had only 3 haplogroups and its not that Albanians have only 3 haplogroups how some people are trying to represent.

So, once again, about 60 - 70 % of modern Albanian lines are Paleo Balkan in origin, about 10 - 15 % are Slavic in origin, and the rest goes on various groups of people like from Paleolithic remains to modern day encounters.

[Ownstyler]

We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️

The CHG shift is too strong, and it doesn't affect Bosnians and Croats, who presumably mixed with the local populations. So you'd need an influx of Anatolian women after the Slavs came to Bosnia.

Autosomal PCA plots don't mean much unless you have a very detailed record of ALL the populations that lived in a region and all around it at different moments in time. This is why authors are so careful to only forward limited claims which the data can support. No one can guarantee, for example, that IA Illyrians from Albania would not plot far from BA Croatians.

You claim no matching the two BA Croatians on the plot means there has to be an influx of Anatolian ancestry, but it may very well be that it was these NW shifted BA Croatian samples who were assimilated into a more SouthEastern local population between BA and IA, when the Illyrians, Thracians and all the first historical populations of the Balkans emerge. Here are some PCA projections which make more sense than your argument.

- Bulgaria is the only Balkan area where we have samples from both BA and IA. So we can compare them, thinking of IA as a mixture of local and newcomers of the Bronza Age. Look at the first plot, the possible local Balkan position we get from that is not too far from Sardinians, probably close to Anatolia, which makes sense.

PCA plot BA-IA-modern.jpg
- We can use this local Balkan population position to estimate IA Croatia as a mix of BA Croatia & local Balkan.
- Considering EEF ancestry increases from NorthWest towards SouthEast, IA Albania and IA Bulgaria should be close to IA Croatia, a bit more SouthEastern.
- We can now model modern Albanians as IA Albania + Medieval Slavs, who should be close to Belgorod: perfect fit.
PCA plot BA-IA-modern 2.jpg

Did we prove anything? No, because we don't know about the autosomal profiles of dozens of populations that passed through, or settled the Balkans, or even lived near it. Until we get a full record of autosomal data for all the peoples who lived in the Balkans and around it, from BA to today, we have to rely mainly on uniparental markers for inferences on modern populations.

[Dibran]

There are no Tosk Dibra cluster results in the project so far, but there are 2 Tosks from two studies that fall in that cluster. There is ALB371fta from Boattini et al and ht147 from Ferri et al. Maybe they are from the Elbasan-Librazhd, maybe Gramsh area, but still south of Shkumbin, which would qualify them as Tosks. But I agree that it does look more common around Diber.

You’re right. Completely forgot about and boattini Tosk match. There was also a Gheg in that study. I didn’t know about the Tosk from Ferri Et al. Perhaps it’s more common in Diber and spread from this region with some going south?

[markod]

Has anyone considered the fact that Mycenaeans and Minoans had a lot of CHG/Anatolia admix and that simply means it's a local ancient Balkan admix? What makes you think the CHG admix is medieval or from late antiquity?

Even the Iron Age Thracian was Aegean shifted while the Bronze Age Thracian was Scandinavian-like. An average IQ would understand what that means.

We can't use Northern Balkan samples from 2000 BC or earlier and assume Iron Age Illyrians were the same. At that period the arriving IE tribes hadn't fully blended into the local population and within the same region you could probably find a one Steppe shifted and one Anatolian shifted individual.

The second problem is that we don't have samples from Albania itself so why would we use an early pre-Illyrian sample from Croatia to prove the origin of people living in modern Albania.

Shall we not talk about the contribution of one of the most dominant haplogroups in Europe before the IE waves, haplogroup G?

With is I'm not justifying 100% of the CHG admixture but rather the vast majority. Of course there could have been Illyrians and Albanians that brought wives from Asia Minor and further as well as various people settled during the Ottoman Empire, so using the tribal Ghegs would give us a clear idea of the pre-Ottoman Albanians and even late Illyrians.

We have Iron Age samples, one from a kurgan in the Illyrian core area. No CHG.

[Leka]

We have Iron Age samples, one from a kurgan in the Illyrian core area. No CHG.

Are you talking about that useless low quality sample?

[Ownstyler]

You’re right. Completely forgot about and boattini Tosk match. There was also a Gheg in that study. I didn’t know about the Tosk from Ferri Et al. Perhaps it’s more common in Diber and spread from this region with some going south?

There are 2 Geghs actually: 1 in Boattini and 1 in Ferri. And there is one more unspecified Albanian in this cluster in Bosch.

[Dibran]

There are 2 Geghs actually: 1 in Boattini and 1 in Ferri. And there is one more unspecified Albanian in this cluster in Bosch.

wow! I didn’t know there were this many matches in the cluster. That’s pretty awesome. I wish we could know their surnames/fis from those studies. I think Trojet mentioned there was one Tosk sample in Boattini that was actually closer than the Gheg sample.

Also, I believe it was you or Nik(can’t remember) that provided the STR values of the 3 or so Bulgarians and 2 Croatians that matched 2 STRs of the cluster(potentially being an earlier split before the cluster formed in Diber). However 2 of the Bulgarians from that study were from Razgrad where Arbanas community is. Heavily settled by Albanians. They could potentially be migrants from Albania recently with distant ancestry to Proto-Slavs or whoever carried it.

Im not sure where the other samples were from. There’s also a few new L1029 from 23andme who could potentially be in the cluster. One of my father matches is from Kosova and almost seems likely he falls in the cluster. Surname from the region of Koman. There’s also a match from Dibra Madhe, Dibra Vogel and Tirana that are L1029 on 23andme. Of course none of them returned a response. I offered to sponsor kits.

It’s crazy how many matches I gained over a 2 year period and all the other potential matches including from the studies. Must have f-ucked like rabbits lmao.

[Ownstyler]

Also, I believe it was you or Nik(can’t remember) that provided the STR values of the 3 or so Bulgarians and 2 Croatians that matched 2 STRs of the cluster(potentially being an earlier split before the cluster formed in Diber).

Yes, that was me. They were not SNP-confirmed as R-L1029 though, so it is just a possibility for now.

[Besa]

We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️

Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.

[markod]

Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.

I think your memory has failed you there, like the other potential Illyrians Kotor_BA plots in Western Europe close to Iberians.

[Aspurg]

I think the V13 expansion might be more associated with the eastern Balkans. Gotta wait for the Bosnian guy though.

E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.

Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)

Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.


I know some people did a great job when it comes to origin of I-YP3120 long before even any finds looking at basal diversity and archaeology, history etc.


Obviously there is an emotional need of many Albanians to associate every possible clade with "Illyrians" which is understandable.. Still it seems majority of Albanian E-V13's clearly fits as Illyrian in antiquity looking at current evidence.




(anthrogenica)

Yes you are totally right about this. Unfortunately though this east origin has become kind of a simplified meme that has spread. We also know that the Romans displaced Illyrian tribes to mine in the east and other such forced movements did happen, so the possibility of basal EV13 clades being transported there is probable considering we see pockets across bulgaria and romania with J2b2-L283 with west origin.

It is not a meme when basal E-CTS1273 is generally shifted Central/East Balkan. And now Albanians are best deep tested Balkan population. Yet still few of CTS1273*'s
Lets ignore very widespread Z5017 and Z5018.
1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster
3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.

So even Albanian CTS1273* is close to modern N.Macedonian border so more East for Albanian standards.


True I mentioned some Delmatae being moved to Romania to mines, but many V13 clades cannot fit so nicely into Delmatae.. Still such movements were possible but that basal clades are sent there mostly is very far-fetched. They are less numerous than non-basals, logic dictates these must be moved as well even more so..


PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.

[Johane Derite]

E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.






Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.


I know some people did a great job when it comes to origin of I-YP3120 long before even any finds looking at basal diversity and archaeology, history etc.


Obviously there is an emotional need of many Albanians to associate every possible clade with "Illyrians" which is understandable.. Still it seems majority of Albanian E-V13's clearly fits as Illyrian in antiquity looking at current evidence.




(anthrogenica)



It is not a meme when basal E-CTS1273 is generally shifted Central/East Balkan. And now Albanians are best deep tested Balkan population. Yet still few of CTS1273*'s
Lets ignore very widespread Z5017 and Z5018.
1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster
3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.

So even Albanian CTS1273* is close to modern N.Macedonian border so more East for Albanian standards.


True I mentioned some Delmatae being moved to Romania to mines, but many V13 clades cannot fit so nicely into Delmatae.. Still such movements were possible but that basal clades are sent there mostly is very far-fetched. They are less numerous than non-basals, logic dictates these must be moved as well even more so..


PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.

As usual, interesting post rich in content.

I will clarify my position, but there is a lot to work here and I may forget parts and comment extra parts later.

By "simplified meme" I refer to those who mention E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted to imlply that this must mean it was Thracian, which is what Bulgarian commenters who comment about EV13 Bulgarian diversity tend to do.

I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.

His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

So katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicivative at the very least of compact cultural zones/ or political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to thracians, which I think doesn't hold up.

Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary if I recall correct, so its possible even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).

Likewise I think Zef Mirdita considered the Pirustae an Illyrian tribe and not a Delmatian one, he even wondered whether Romans had simply translated "Darda (pear)" into Latin. "Pirus" (pear). The Dardanian mines were renowned by Romans, and "metallici Dardanicae" or something along the lines of that was found even in Israel, so its not far fetched to assume a pre-Roman mining tradition that invading Romans then utilized. The Dardanian mines of Damastion were used around the time of King Bardylis for example.

[Aspurg]

Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

I think V13 took part in Illyrian colonisation of Italy yes. You might have one example here in E-Y81468 with Dushmani being in cluster with an Italian who posted here too (I think YF16004 is a different Italian).

I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

Delmatae culture was connected with major complex of Varvara in Western Bosnia. This is L283 Posusje culture. Pannonians must have been derived in good part from a major Unrfield wave. This must have included R-L51's. But also some E-V13's that got in the way of Unrfield. I suspect E-L241's were prominent among those..
So actually archeologically Delmatae and Pannonians were not alike. Again Urnfield brought with them cremation, uncommon for coastal Illyrians and in general for Posusje culture (J-L283).

I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

I agree from what I've read.

Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

Archaeological eviedence on proto-Dardanians from what I read is clear, the Brnjica culture, a subgroup of Vatin (non-West Serbian Vatin which was Illyrian) was totally not Illyrian (one large difference total dominance of cremation in Brnjica and no cremation usually in Glasinac Illyrian culture) and was very Thracian. If Dardani of Troy were to be connected with Dardanians it is only with those who were Daco-Moesian. On that I believe there is a consensus among archaeologists. And subsequent Illyrian Dardanians migrated from the West, that much is also clear (read PH1602, Z631).

I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.

Yes CTS1273 itself does not seem coastal at all.

With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

Thracian was satem and indeed has been connected to Baltic. But the question is where are R1a's - the progenitors of Thracian language? Slavic clades totally dominate. There is another issue of R-Z93 Srubnaya element (and one Thracian Z93 found), among Bulgarians I can identify few likely Thracian clades of Z93. These might have shifted Thracian more into that direction as well. I now know which culture brought these Z93's in Thrace.

Recently I noticed a Serb from Hungary, near Vojvodina border belonged to a very rare but basal clade of Z280: R-S24902*, YP469-, YP561- so no cousins for 4400 ybp. He might be connected to some other Serbs.
This clade does not seem Slavic at all (mostly NW European and only one Slavic cluster) and I believe there are two good scenarios for it:

1. Vatin culture, Vatin as proto-Daco-Moesian. This clade can be originator of the Thracian language if we go with the Baltic connection.

2. Cetina culture. Attested as a strong element in Cetina culture is the Corded Ware element! And CW suggests some R-Z280 (such as R-S24902). According to many even though Cetina is often grouped among Vucedol, there is no evidence Vucedol people played significant role biologically in it. While there is such evidence for Corded Ware people, this is attested in pottery but also in funeral ritual such as cremation being very common in Cetina culture. Of course why Cetina is a good match for V13? Well a local neolithic element (ofc likely) connected to that E-L618 found in Early Neolithic was involved as well.

So from two sides this R-S24902 might be connected to E-V13. And you see Baltoid influenced and E-V13 does not exclude each other at all.
If V13 stems from Cetina one might argue Cetina people were "Baltoid/Corded Ware" influenced from the onset.


About this spread of basal E-CTS1273*s on the Balkans: if your were to find a central focal point of all these 5-6 clades it would be somewhere around the river Struma. According to the Pseudo-Plutarch the older name of the river Strymon was Palaistinos. Which ofc many connect to Pelasgians. One of rare such legitimate connections from Thrace.

In vicinity also R-Y5586 has great diversity - 4300 ybp. Not far also E-FGC44169>S7461 also is diverse. Under S7461 BY5022 (3800 ybp TMRCA) is very diverse in the Middle East, including one cluster in Druze, other in Lebanon, other Arabs etc.

I thought maybe to connect these BY5022 to Philistines and connect that East Balkan diversity area to river Palaistinos but among those 4 Philistines only an R-M269 was found of "genuine" Philistines.

The Greek term Pelasgian is a clear corruption of "Pelast", also Greeks seem to have called various peoples as "Pelasgians", for example the "Pelasgians of Lemnos" who spoke a dialect of Etruscan later are connected with Tyrrhenians (which is realistic and right there on Lemnos a rare clade of G-L497 is found actually). Pre-Greeks also, but vast majority of Greek E-V13's for example do not fit as pre-Greek people at all.. They are post-Mycenian let alone pre-Greek.. But the real Pelastians might have been some people. Considering genuine Philistine names are connected to Indo-European languages it seems to me they were IE or IE-zed group.

Now I was thinking, if R1a is progenitor of Thracians, maybe the progenitor of Pelastians is in fact R-CTS1450, and I'm thinking some CTS1273s maybe spread with that group.

Also to consider there are some other peoples such as Paeonians. There is also significant diversity of R-PF7562 on the Balkans and Albanians as well. Some connected Phillistines to Luwian group as well where PF7562 fits. Going by current data, it seems R-PF7562 was more common than R-Z2705 among Illyrians because R-Z2705 has a TMRCA of 1500 ybp. Yet this group is clearly fundamentally important to Albanian ethogenesis, more important than any other cluster of similar age.


However I think from the POV of Albanian common hg's being J-L283 and E-V13, I think these hg's had very different paths and it is simply impossible to make them part of "one people" at 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC in most cases. Where they were it was mostly due to assimilation.


I read that the relations between Cetina people (likely V13) and Posusje/Dinara (likely L283) who coexisted for some time were "possibly hostile", "competing" etc.