Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 70 of 70

Thread: Albanians = Illyrian

  1. #51
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Delmatae culture was connected with major complex of Varvara in Western Bosnia. This is L283 Posusje culture. Pannonians must have been derived in good part from a major Unrfield wave. This must have included R-L51's. But also some E-V13's that got in the way of Unrfield. I suspect E-L241's were prominent among those..
    So actually archeologically Delmatae and Pannonians were not alike. Again Urnfield brought with them cremation, uncommon for coastal Illyrians and in general for Posusje culture (J-L283).
    One important linguistic evidence to keep in mind is from pg 182 which is copy pasted the previous comment.

    Specifically, Katicic mentions Emona in Slovenia, and that there are 3 visible layers of anthroponymy here:

    1. East Celtic names which he calls "Noric"
    2. Non-Noric Celtic names from an older Celtic onomastic substratum
    3. The oldest layer: "North-Adriatic" (Venetic, Istrian, Liburnian)

    We know that Venetic is an isolate branch language somehwere in between italo-celtic and germanic and the "illyric" languages.

    The three different anthroponymic (all non-Illyrian according to current consensus) layers suggest we should expect also at least three different non-Illyrian archaeological cultures in north west frontier of delmato-pannonians. All three of these had possibility to influence different zones through religious notions about burials to their neighbours etc without entailing linguistic assimilation.

    Delmatians and Pannonians may have different archaeological cultures from each other but their onomastic system seems to be the same for now, which means an elevated probability they spoke the same language despite different complexes/origins existing within the group. Pannonians were closer to the frontier with celts and so would have been more likely to experience cultural influence and even assimilation/mixing with oncomers.

    (Albanian muslims and catholics in Kosovo have different burials today, but speak identical language.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post


    Archaeological eviedence on proto-Dardanians from what I read is clear, the Brnjica culture, a subgroup of Vatin (non-West Serbian Vatin which was Illyrian) was totally not Illyrian (one large difference total dominance of cremation in Brnjica and no cremation usually in Glasinac Illyrian culture) and was very Thracian. If Dardani of Troy were to be connected with Dardanians it is only with those who were Daco-Moesian. On that I believe there is a consensus among archaeologists. And subsequent Illyrian Dardanians migrated from the West, that much is also clear (read PH1602, Z631).
    I will take some time to respond to this, but will comment this in meanwhile.

    Dardania according to Katicic had 3 anthroponymic layers:

    1. Illyrian proper
    2. Delmato-Pannonian (which he suggests invaded the west dardania at some point and replaced the Illyrian anthroponymy, pg181 in previous comment)
    3. Thracian in the east

    Important to take into account at least three, and we should look for three different archaeological cultures.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Thracian was satem and indeed has been connected to Baltic.
    Important to remember that Messapic was satem also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    But the question is where are R1a's - the progenitors of Thracian language? Slavic clades totally dominate. There is another issue of R-Z93 Srubnaya element, among Bulgarians I can identify few likely Thracian clades of Z93. These might have shifted Thracian more into that direction as well. I now know which culture brought these Z93's in Thrace.

    Recently I noticed a Serb from Hungary, near Vojvodina border belonged to a very rare but basal clade of Z380: R-YP4078*, YP469-, YP561- so no cousins for 4400 ybp. He might be connected to some other Serbs.
    This clade does not seem Slavic at all and I believe there are two good scenarios for it:

    1. Vatin culture, Vatin as proto-Daco-Moesian. This clade can be originator of the Thracian language if we go with the Baltic connection.

    2. Cetina culture. Attested as a strong element in Cetina culture is the Corded Ware element! And CW suggests some R-Z280 (such as YP4078). According to many even though Cetina is often grouped among Vucedol, there is no evidence Vucedol people played significant role biologically in it. While there is such evidence for Corded Ware people, this is attested in pottery but also in funeral ritual such as cremation being very common in Cetina culture.

    So from two sides this R-YP4078 might be connected to E-V13. And you see Baltoid influenced and E-V13 does not exclude each other at all.
    If V13 stems from Cetina one might argue Cetina people were "Baltoid/Corded Ware" influenced from the onset.


    About this spread of basal E-CTS1273*s on the Balkans: if your were to find a central focal point of all these 5-6 clades it would be somewhere around the river Struma. According to the Pseudo-Plutarch the older name of the river Strymon was Palaistinos. Which ofc many connect to Pelasgians.

    In vicinity also R-Y5586 has great diversity - 4300 ybp. Not far also E-FGC44169>S7461 also is diverse. Under S7461 BY5022 (3800 ybp TMRCA) is very diverse in the Middle East, including one cluster in Druze, other in Lebanon, other Arabs etc.

    I thought maybe to connect these BY5022 to Philistines and connect that East Balkan diversity area to river Palaistinos but among those 4 Philistines only a R-M269 was found of "genuine" Philistines.

    The Greek term Pelasgian is a clear corruption of "Pelast", also Greeks seem to have called various peoples as "Pelasgians", for example the "Pelasgians of Lemnos" who spoke a dialect of Etruscan later are connected with Tyrrhenians (which is realistic and right there on Lemnos a rare clade of G-L497 is found actually). Pre-Greeks also, but vast majority of Greek E-V13's for example do not fit as pre-Greek people at all.. They are post-Mycenian let alone pre-Greek.. But the real Pelastians might have been some people. Considering genuine Philistine names are connected to Indo-European languages it seems to me they were IE or IE-zed group.

    Now I was thinking, if R1a is progenitor of Thracians, maybe the progenitor of Pelastians is in fact R-CTS1450, and I'm thinking some CTS1273s maybe spread with that group.

    Also to consider there are some other peoples such as Paeonians. There is also significant diversity of R-PF7562 on the Balkans and Albanians as well. Some connected Phillistines to Luwian group as well where PF7562 fits. Going by current data, it seems R-PF7562 was more common than R-Z2705 among Illyrians because R-Z2705 has a TMRCA of 1500 ybp. Yet this group is clearly fundamentally important to Albanian ethogenesis, more important than any other cluster of similar age.

    There is so much here, i think it will take me a bit longer to respond to everything. I am not as knowledgable on R1b, as i've had to defend it less and so haven't become as familiar with it. I am also quite confused by the Brygians, what they must have belonged to. They were centum, so possibly urnfield connected?

    I will mention also, that Katicic says the only Baltic hydronomy is found amongst the North-Adriatic regions the most (of the west balkan groups, thracian not included).



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    However I think from the POV of Albanian common hg's being J-L283 and E-V13, I think these hg's had very different paths and it is simply impossible to make them part of "one people" at 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC in most cases. Where they were it was mostly due to assimilation.

    Obviously at one point all our ancestors diverge and cannot have been always one group. I am trying to pinpoint the proto-albanian language and which haplos we should expect to see among proto-albanian speakers. Schumacher publicly stated:

    One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years, Schumacher says. Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity, he added."

    I don't think we yet know at what point proto-Albanian was identical to another paleo-balkan (proto-greek, etc) language and first began to diverge and attain its individuality, but that is the point at which Albanian history ends (going backwards), and it enters common paleo-balkan history, and after that common IE history.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    I read that the relations between Cetina people (likely V13) and Posusje/Dinara (likely L283) who coexisted for some time were "possibly hostile", "competing" etc.
    Violence amongst one another is what I would expect to see among Albanian's ancestors. See: highland tribes and feuds.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  2. #52
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    343
    Points
    3,234
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,234, Level: 16
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 216
    Overall activity: 67.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    As usual, interesting post rich in content.

    I will clarify my position, but there is a lot to work here and I may forget parts and comment extra parts later.

    By "simplified meme" I refer to those who mention E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted to imlply that this must mean it was Thracian, which is what Bulgarian commenters who comment about EV13 Bulgarian diversity tend to do.

    I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.

    His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

    I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

    Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

    So katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicivative at the very least of compact cultural zones/ or political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

    I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

    Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

    With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

    The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

    So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to thracians, which I think doesn't hold up.

    Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

    Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary if I recall correct, so its possible even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).

    Likewise I think Zef Mirdita considered the Pirustae an Illyrian tribe and not a Delmatian one, he even wondered whether Romans had simply translated "Darda (pear)" into Latin. "Pirus" (pear). The Dardanian mines were renowned by Romans, and "metallici Dardanicae" or something along the lines of that was found even in Israel, so its not far fetched to assume a pre-Roman mining tradition that invading Romans then utilized. The Dardanian mines of Damastion were used around the time of King Bardylis for example.



    Do you know anything about these northern illyrian ancients and if their E marker is also southern

    E-M35
    E-CTS9320
    E-U175
    all above from noricum ( east austria ) and friulian mountains

    E-M123 north Tyrol ( west austria )

    E-V12 trentino Italy


    other markers where R1a, R1b, C, T1a1, T1a2, L1b-M317 , G-L497, I1, I2 etc etc


    as per illyrians tribes ( red text ) below and before Halstatt culture, I am unsure where these E plotted

    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    322
    Points
    5,658
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,658, Level: 22
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 392
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^ As usual, Sile posting nonsense 😂
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  4. #54
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    321
    Points
    3,221
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,221, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 229
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: United States



    E-V13, E-PH1246 and E-CTS1273 all happened 2000BC and 3000BC. They are too old to be associated with Illyrians or Thracians, who were mainly IA peoples. We don't even know if Illyrians existed as such before 1500BC. If we look further back to when E-V13 started spreading we are within the IE migration timeline. With a similar logic we could claim Irishmen come from Scythians based on R-L23 and R-M269 diversity. In addition, the diversity of the earliest E-V13 clades differs a lot from subclade to subclade.

    For Illyrians and other IA peoples, it makes more sense to focus on clades with tmrca-s of ~2500-3500 ybp. Any potential Albanian-Illyrian connections in E-V13, are better explored by looking at CTS9320, PH2180, FGC11450, FGC33621, and a few other, rarer clades.

  5. #55
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    107
    Points
    1,966
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,966, Level: 12
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 184
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
    2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
    3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster

    3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
    4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
    5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
    6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.
    I generally agree with you but I need to give some clarification about some things in your post since you mentioned me indirectly in your post and also about this "serb" guy!

    First, neither me nor my closest matches in FTDNA database identify as Aromanians.
    I identify as a Macedonian although I define Macedonians as people who ultimately trace their origin and language to Bulgarian Empire of the Medieval and who share the same history and historical figures with the Bulgarians(ofc, not Alexander the Great which has nothing to do with our real history)!
    You can look on this as in the case between Austria and Germany...
    There is no memory in my family that any of my ancestors ever spoke Aromanian or identified as Aromanian or Vlach!
    Although as you already know, I share some str values with Aromanians, but these Aromanians are not SNP tested and the str values we share are just a few, therefore you can not qualify this cluster as "Aromanian" until we get some NGS result of an actual Aromanian!
    As you know, the village was mentioned as a former Vlach village and plus there is some Aromanian base in my surname and my match's surname which leads me to the same conclusion of Aromanian origin. Basically, the match which is 4/67 with me, goes with surname which can be derived from the Aromanian word "Dada" which could mean either a mother, an older sister or a grandma in Aromanian, while my surname has as a base the word "ghiush" or "gjush' which in Aromanian means grandpa! So there is definitely some connection and it seems this is a real match although our surnames are different.

    And this is in context with my second elaboration about the guy who you said that identifies as a Serb.

    I don't know whether the guy identifies as a Serb or not, and even if it's true, and if we are talking about the same guy, he doesn't have any matches with Serbs! He is 2/37 with a Macedonian guy from Vratnice in Jegunovce in Macedonia. That's his closest match on 37 markers and unfortunately the other guy isn't tested further than that. So this is probably a local Macedonian cluster with geographical location in the north of Republic of N.Macedonia.

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,944
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,944, Level: 15
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 106
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    Dada is actually Albanian and basically means older sister. Same thing for Gjysh, means grandfather. And as far as I know, you trace your ancestry to some village in southern Albania.

  7. #57
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    245
    Points
    2,162
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,162, Level: 13
    Level completed: 4%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I generally agree with you but I need to give some clarification about some things in your post since you mentioned me indirectly in your post and also about this "serb" guy!

    First, neither me nor my closest matches in FTDNA database identify as Aromanians.
    I identify as a Macedonian although I define Macedonians as people who ultimately trace their origin and language to Bulgarian Empire of the Medieval and who share the same history and historical figures with the Bulgarians(ofc, not Alexander the Great which has nothing to do with our real history)!

    You can look on this as in the case between Austria and Germany...
    There is no memory in my family that any of my ancestors ever spoke Aromanian or identified as Aromanian or Vlach!
    Although as you already know, I share some str values with Aromanians, but these Aromanians are not SNP tested and the str values we share are just a few, therefore you can not qualify this cluster as "Aromanian" until we get some NGS result of an actual Aromanian!
    As you know, the village was mentioned as a former Vlach village and plus there is some Aromanian base in my surname and my match's surname which leads me to the same conclusion of Aromanian origin. Basically, the match which is 4/67 with me, goes with surname which can be derived from the Aromanian word "Dada" which could mean either a mother, an older sister or a grandma in Aromanian, while my surname has as a base the word "ghiush" or "gjush' which in Aromanian means grandpa! So there is definitely some connection and it seems this is a real match although our surnames are different.
    I see. In Aromanian study of 175 Aromanians 10 of them (5 from Stip and 5 from Dukasi) belonged to a haplotype whose off-modal STR's were dys358b=19 + dys389b=16. You share both of these with a Greek so I guess they have at least minimal age in your cluster. I want to give these Aromanians the best guess as to what subclade they could belong to considering this is the largest E-V13 cluster among them (5.7 % of tested). Obviously your E-Y16729* cluster seems like a good candidate also considering location, and yes, that little detail about your village being inhabited by Aromanians also helps.

    Indeed they are only tested for 19 STR's and not SNP tested but those STR combinations are not frequent among E-V13's. For ex. one British cluster of BY5022 (Wright brothers haplotype actually) but they are far away.. One of my cousins matches but his value on 385b is likely relatively recent, plus they don't match on two important STR's for my subclade, one Croat Z16988 has it but not sure how old are these in him etc.. If they are (it is quite likely they are) E-Y16729 likely those from Dukasi migrated there from Macedonia considering your distant Bulgarian cousin.

    So few Aromanians have been tested, so that study is still of some importance, actually recently Albanians have tested a number of Aromanians from Albania so there is sort of a mini Vlach project over there.

    About Macedonians and Bulglarians, I agree that Macedonians are closer to Bulgarians, the language is far more related to Bulgarian than it is to Serbian etc. It may be considered a dialect of Bulgarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't know whether the guy identifies as a Serb or not, and even if it's true, and if we are talking about the same guy, he doesn't have any matches with Serbs! He is 2/37 with a Macedonian guy from Vratnice in Jegunovce in Macedonia. That's his closest match on 37 markers and unfortunately the other guy isn't tested further than that. So this is probably a local Macedonian cluster with geographical location in the north of Republic of N.Macedonia.
    Ah I just know they are/were on Serbian project, and I know they don't match any Serbs, so I "guessed" that they "may identify" as such, also they had some Patron Saint info written, though also Serbs who have recent non-Serbian origin tend to adopt it. Yes I know both of these Vratnice and Jegunovce.
    Anyway if you know him, you might suggest him to do BigY. In the absence of any matches it is reasonable to assume they are local in that area.

  8. #58
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Aspar's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-07-17
    Posts
    107
    Points
    1,966
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,966, Level: 12
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 184
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Dada is actually Albanian and basically means older sister. Same thing for Gjysh, means grandfather. And as far as I know, you trace your ancestry to some village in southern Albania.
    Yes, I am aware of the similarities between Albanian and Aromanian. Also as I said already "Dada" and "Ghiush" means Grandmother and Grandfather in Aromanian language. This coupled with the Aromanian matches in a study of 2006 about the Aromanians in Macedonia and Albania and no matches with Albanians whatsoever, gives more likely explanation to be the Aromanian.

    No, my ancestry is from the far south of today's N.Macedonia but I suspect some migrations to have taken place from South Albania in the past.

  9. #59
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,944
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,944, Level: 15
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 106
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yes, I am aware of the similarities between Albanian and Aromanian. Also as I said already "Dada" and "Ghiush" means Grandmother and Grandfather in Aromanian language. This coupled with the Aromanian matches in a study of 2006 about the Aromanians in Macedonia and Albania and no matches with Albanians whatsoever, gives more likely explanation to be the Aromanian.

    No, my ancestry is from the far south of today's N.Macedonia but I suspect some migrations to have taken place from South Albania in the past.
    Those are Albanian words, so couldn’t tell you if Aromanians use them. Perhaps some Aromanians from Albania do. You told me a while back that your ancestors moved from southern Albanian to Macedonia in distant past.


    V13 is looking quite diverse in southern Albania so you never know what your ancestors were. You are only guessing that they were Vlahs based on the type of village they settled in Macedonia.
    Last edited by Leka; 23-08-19 at 00:04.

  10. #60
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    245
    Points
    2,162
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,162, Level: 13
    Level completed: 4%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    V13 is looking quite diverse in southern Albania so you never know what your ancestors were. You are only guessing that they were Vlahs based on the type of village they settled in Macedonia.
    Aromanians as a people are usually connected to Eastern Balkan/Central/Eastern Balkan. That is where their ethnogenesis occurred according to many authors, their language is classified as East Balkan Romance language distinct of those in the West. Sure there are a number of locals especially of those from Albania (such as that L283 cluster, and possibly your dys392=11 cousins) but there are also those with Eastern links.

    About V13 diversity and percentage in South Albania, I would say it is caused in big part by Late Bronze Age Collapse.

    I think this event (or more properly string of events) caused greater mingling of cultures and hg's, and Johane Derite was talking about 3000 year mark, and that generally falls close to this event. So yes one should talk about Illyrians rather after this event.

    Subsequently in the archaeology of Southern Albania a separate Illyrian culture is mentioned, often labelled Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture distinct from Glasinac-Mati culture, it is quite reasonable to assume that E-V13 clades are more involved with this culture than J-L283.

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    963
    Points
    13,951
    Level
    35
    Points: 13,951, Level: 35
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 99
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    About V13 diversity and percentage in South Albania
    Not related to your comment, but im not so familiar with Serbian Y-dna so maybe you can help. I am currently researching orthodox albanians in the north, and in the Zhica charter of 1220 150 names are serbian and 54 are albanian and vlach. This is quite north of kosovo and i am wondering whether there are any surviving clades among serbians that may have come from those orthodox albanians. have you noticed any possivle candidates?

    Also in the banjska charter of 1313, 444 names are serbian 117 are albanian and vlach.
    Milutins hilandar charter in 1290-1300 also has around 100 serb names and 48 albanian and vlach names.




  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    245
    Points
    2,162
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,162, Level: 13
    Level completed: 4%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 41.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Z17107>A24048
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Qun, Ermi
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Not related to your comment, but im not so familiar with Serbian Y-dna so maybe you can help. I am currently researching orthodox albanians in the north, and in the Zhica charter of 1220 150 names are serbian and 54 are albanian and vlach. This is quite north of kosovo and i am wondering whether there are any surviving clades among serbians that may have come from those orthodox albanians. have you noticed any possivle candidates?
    There are few Serb E-Y146086's around Kraljevo. I know they seem to match well some Western Bosnian Serbs (who are Y23, these are Y37 so they are certainly E-Y146086). There is some presence of certain R-Z2705's in Stari Vlah area. I guess they must have belonged to one of various Vlach communities there. Those communities in charters are usually designated as Vlachs with a number of Romanian and Albanian names (and other non-Slavic names). Probably they were Vlachs with Albanian influences.

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    916
    Points
    12,728
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,728, Level: 34
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 622
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Illyrians were a group of populations/tribes with close languages.
    Illyrians were not a single ethnicity. Also, Illyrians as other European speaking people were identified after their mother tongue not after their paternal lines.
    Is quite clear Illyrians came and conquered people from Balkans. Is not possible that Illyrians brought E-V13 in Balkans, E-V13 is 10.000 years old.
    I highly doubt that Illyrians spoke a Satem language.
    There is mentioned an Illyrian language spoken in Italy. Now Italy and Satem language ?
    :)
    Illyrians should have spoken a Centum language.
    After some Illyrians merged with Celtic people, were conquered by Dacians and Thracians, were conquered by Romans,had strong South Slavic and Greek influence, Albanians appeared.
    So Albanians are closest to ancient Illyrians, but they are no longer Illyrians. I think the most pronounced Satem character came in Albanian from Dacians and Thracians, which should have spoken some BaltoSlavic languages.

  14. #64
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-01-12
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    916
    Points
    12,728
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,728, Level: 34
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 622
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

    Ethnic group
    Romanian
    Country: Romania



    Albanians are integrating best, as migrants in Italy and in Switzerland.
    Which shows they were originally from the Galo-Celto-Roman people.
    The Albanians cluster to North Italians, on Autosomal testing.So their Satem language is just derived from non-Illyrian influences.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    343
    Points
    3,234
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,234, Level: 16
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 216
    Overall activity: 67.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Illyrians were a group of populations/tribes with close languages.
    Illyrians were not a single ethnicity. Also, Illyrians as other European speaking people were identified after their mother tongue not after their paternal lines.
    Is quite clear Illyrians came and conquered people from Balkans. Is not possible that Illyrians brought E-V13 in Balkans, E-V13 is 10.000 years old.
    I highly doubt that Illyrians spoke a Satem language.
    There is mentioned an Illyrian language spoken in Italy. Now Italy and Satem language ?
    :)
    Illyrians should have spoken a Centum language.
    After some Illyrians merged with Celtic people, were conquered by Dacians and Thracians, were conquered by Romans,had strong South Slavic and Greek influence, Albanians appeared.
    So Albanians are closest to ancient Illyrians, but they are no longer Illyrians. I think the most pronounced Satem character came in Albanian from Dacians and Thracians, which should have spoken some BaltoSlavic languages.
    I have seen no illyrian text found..............I only seen personnel names
    There are no illyrians, they are liburnians, dalmatians, histrians , Iapges, pannonians etc etc ...............Illyrian means similar to Scandinavian, a geographical term

    some linguistics ( and I do not know their accuracy ) places proto-"illyrian" with proto-celtic and proto-italic languages north of the balkans as ONE group........but, as i said , it is speculation

  16. #66
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,380
    Points
    37,785
    Level
    59
    Points: 37,785, Level: 59
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 65
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Albanians are integrating best, as migrants in Italy and in Switzerland.
    Which shows they were originally from the Galo-Celto-Roman people.
    The Albanians cluster to North Italians, on Autosomal testing.So their Satem language is just derived from non-Illyrian influences.
    on the PCA's I've Albanians are far enough from Northern Italians and even Toscans, and are between Southern Italians from a side, and Bulgarians & Romanians on another side, so close enough to continental Greeks (Northern Greeks?) -

  17. #67
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,057
    Points
    5,400
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,400, Level: 21
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 150
    Overall activity: 28.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Illyrians were a group of populations/tribes with close languages.
    Illyrians were not a single ethnicity. Also, Illyrians as other European speaking people were identified after their mother tongue not after their paternal lines.
    Is quite clear Illyrians came and conquered people from Balkans. Is not possible that Illyrians brought E-V13 in Balkans, E-V13 is 10.000 years old.
    I highly doubt that Illyrians spoke a Satem language.
    There is mentioned an Illyrian language spoken in Italy. Now Italy and Satem language ?
    :)
    Illyrians should have spoken a Centum language.
    After some Illyrians merged with Celtic people, were conquered by Dacians and Thracians, were conquered by Romans,had strong South Slavic and Greek influence, Albanians appeared.
    So Albanians are closest to ancient Illyrians, but they are no longer Illyrians. I think the most pronounced Satem character came in Albanian from Dacians and Thracians, which should have spoken some BaltoSlavic languages.
    Excuse me but i insist. When Dacians conquered Illyrians?
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

  18. #68
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Excuse me but i insist. When Dacians conquered Illyrians?
    Most probable was the other way around. Dardania and Macedonia were former Tracian territories conquered by Illyrians. From Pannonian plains proto Illyrians moved toward the south into Dardania and then further south into Macedonia and Epirus.

  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    5,829
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,829, Level: 22
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 1.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yes, I am aware of the similarities between Albanian and Aromanian. Also as I said already "Dada" and "Ghiush" means Grandmother and Grandfather in Aromanian language. This coupled with the Aromanian matches in a study of 2006 about the Aromanians in Macedonia and Albania and no matches with Albanians whatsoever, gives more likely explanation to be the Aromanian.

    No, my ancestry is from the far south of today's N.Macedonia but I suspect some migrations to have taken place from South Albania in the past.
    Depends on from what part of N Macedonia you hails. Manastir and Oher were once inhabited by large number of Albanians, which means southwest Macedonia.

  20. #70
    Regular Member Achievements:
    100 Experience Points7 days registered

    Join Date
    19-09-19
    Age
    31
    Posts
    44
    Points
    238
    Level
    2
    Points: 238, Level: 2
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 12
    Overall activity: 24.0%


    Country: Armenia



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I have seen no illyrian text found..............I only seen personnel names
    There are no illyrians, they are liburnians, dalmatians, histrians , Iapges, pannonians etc etc ...............Illyrian means similar to Scandinavian, a geographical term

    some linguistics ( and I do not know their accuracy ) places proto-"illyrian" with proto-celtic and proto-italic languages north of the balkans as ONE group........but, as i said , it is speculation
    Liburnians, histrians, Dalmatians, lapges and Pannonians were all Illyrians.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •