Albanians = Illyrian

Has anyone considered the fact that Mycenaeans and Minoans had a lot of CHG/Anatolia admix and that simply means it's a local ancient Balkan admix? What makes you think the CHG admix is medieval or from late antiquity?

Even the Iron Age Thracian was Aegean shifted while the Bronze Age Thracian was Scandinavian-like. An average IQ would understand what that means.

We can't use Northern Balkan samples from 2000 BC or earlier and assume Iron Age Illyrians were the same. At that period the arriving IE tribes hadn't fully blended into the local population and within the same region you could probably find a one Steppe shifted and one Anatolian shifted individual.

The second problem is that we don't have samples from Albania itself so why would we use an early pre-Illyrian sample from Croatia to prove the origin of people living in modern Albania.

Shall we not talk about the contribution of one of the most dominant haplogroups in Europe before the IE waves, haplogroup G?

With is I'm not justifying 100% of the CHG admixture but rather the vast majority. Of course there could have been Illyrians and Albanians that brought wives from Asia Minor and further as well as various people settled during the Ottoman Empire, so using the tribal Ghegs would give us a clear idea of the pre-Ottoman Albanians and even late Illyrians.
We have Iron Age samples, one from a kurgan in the Illyrian core area. No CHG.
 
You’re right. Completely forgot about and boattini Tosk match. There was also a Gheg in that study. I didn’t know about the Tosk from Ferri Et al. Perhaps it’s more common in Diber and spread from this region with some going south?

There are 2 Geghs actually: 1 in Boattini and 1 in Ferri. And there is one more unspecified Albanian in this cluster in Bosch.
 
There are 2 Geghs actually: 1 in Boattini and 1 in Ferri. And there is one more unspecified Albanian in this cluster in Bosch.

wow! I didn’t know there were this many matches in the cluster. That’s pretty awesome. I wish we could know their surnames/fis from those studies. I think Trojet mentioned there was one Tosk sample in Boattini that was actually closer than the Gheg sample.

Also, I believe it was you or Nik(can’t remember) that provided the STR values of the 3 or so Bulgarians and 2 Croatians that matched 2 STRs of the cluster(potentially being an earlier split before the cluster formed in Diber). However 2 of the Bulgarians from that study were from Razgrad where Arbanas community is. Heavily settled by Albanians. They could potentially be migrants from Albania recently with distant ancestry to Proto-Slavs or whoever carried it.

Im not sure where the other samples were from. There’s also a few new L1029 from 23andme who could potentially be in the cluster. One of my father matches is from Kosova and almost seems likely he falls in the cluster. Surname from the region of Koman. There’s also a match from Dibra Madhe, Dibra Vogel and Tirana that are L1029 on 23andme. Of course none of them returned a response. I offered to sponsor kits.

It’s crazy how many matches I gained over a 2 year period and all the other potential matches including from the studies. Must have f-ucked like rabbits lmao.
 
Also, I believe it was you or Nik(can’t remember) that provided the STR values of the 3 or so Bulgarians and 2 Croatians that matched 2 STRs of the cluster(potentially being an earlier split before the cluster formed in Diber).

Yes, that was me. They were not SNP-confirmed as R-L1029 though, so it is just a possibility for now.
 
We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️

Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.
 
Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.

I think your memory has failed you there, like the other potential Illyrians Kotor_BA plots in Western Europe close to Iberians.

mwjRFPg.png
 
I think the V13 expansion might be more associated with the eastern Balkans. Gotta wait for the Bosnian guy though.


E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.



Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)


Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.


I know some people did a great job when it comes to origin of I-YP3120 long before even any finds looking at basal diversity and archaeology, history etc.


Obviously there is an emotional need of many Albanians to associate every possible clade with "Illyrians" which is understandable.. Still it seems majority of Albanian E-V13's clearly fits as Illyrian in antiquity looking at current evidence.




(anthrogenica)
Yes you are totally right about this. Unfortunately though this east origin has become kind of a simplified meme that has spread. We also know that the Romans displaced Illyrian tribes to mine in the east and other such forced movements did happen, so the possibility of basal EV13 clades being transported there is probable considering we see pockets across bulgaria and romania with J2b2-L283 with west origin.


It is not a meme when basal E-CTS1273 is generally shifted Central/East Balkan. And now Albanians are best deep tested Balkan population. Yet still few of CTS1273*'s
Lets ignore very widespread Z5017 and Z5018.
1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster
3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.

So even Albanian CTS1273* is close to modern N.Macedonian border so more East for Albanian standards.


True I mentioned some Delmatae being moved to Romania to mines, but many V13 clades cannot fit so nicely into Delmatae.. Still such movements were possible but that basal clades are sent there mostly is very far-fetched. They are less numerous than non-basals, logic dictates these must be moved as well even more so..


PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.
 
E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.






Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.


I know some people did a great job when it comes to origin of I-YP3120 long before even any finds looking at basal diversity and archaeology, history etc.


Obviously there is an emotional need of many Albanians to associate every possible clade with "Illyrians" which is understandable.. Still it seems majority of Albanian E-V13's clearly fits as Illyrian in antiquity looking at current evidence.




(anthrogenica)



It is not a meme when basal E-CTS1273 is generally shifted Central/East Balkan. And now Albanians are best deep tested Balkan population. Yet still few of CTS1273*'s
Lets ignore very widespread Z5017 and Z5018.
1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster
3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.

So even Albanian CTS1273* is close to modern N.Macedonian border so more East for Albanian standards.


True I mentioned some Delmatae being moved to Romania to mines, but many V13 clades cannot fit so nicely into Delmatae.. Still such movements were possible but that basal clades are sent there mostly is very far-fetched. They are less numerous than non-basals, logic dictates these must be moved as well even more so..


PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.

As usual, interesting post rich in content.

I will clarify my position, but there is a lot to work here and I may forget parts and comment extra parts later.

By "simplified meme" I refer to those who mention E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted to imlply that this must mean it was Thracian, which is what Bulgarian commenters who comment about EV13 Bulgarian diversity tend to do.

I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.

His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

So katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicivative at the very least of compact cultural zones/ or political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to thracians, which I think doesn't hold up.

Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary if I recall correct, so its possible even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).

Likewise I think Zef Mirdita considered the Pirustae an Illyrian tribe and not a Delmatian one, he even wondered whether Romans had simply translated "Darda (pear)" into Latin. "Pirus" (pear). The Dardanian mines were renowned by Romans, and "metallici Dardanicae" or something along the lines of that was found even in Israel, so its not far fetched to assume a pre-Roman mining tradition that invading Romans then utilized. The Dardanian mines of Damastion were used around the time of King Bardylis for example.

JAqdpsR.png


nqJ83Vy.png
 
Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

I think V13 took part in Illyrian colonisation of Italy yes. You might have one example here in E-Y81468 with Dushmani being in cluster with an Italian who posted here too (I think YF16004 is a different Italian).


I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

Delmatae culture was connected with major complex of Varvara in Western Bosnia. This is L283 Posusje culture. Pannonians must have been derived in good part from a major Unrfield wave. This must have included R-L51's. But also some E-V13's that got in the way of Unrfield. I suspect E-L241's were prominent among those..
So actually archeologically Delmatae and Pannonians were not alike. Again Urnfield brought with them cremation, uncommon for coastal Illyrians and in general for Posusje culture (J-L283).


I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

I agree from what I've read.


Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

Archaeological eviedence on proto-Dardanians from what I read is clear, the Brnjica culture, a subgroup of Vatin (non-West Serbian Vatin which was Illyrian) was totally not Illyrian (one large difference total dominance of cremation in Brnjica and no cremation usually in Glasinac Illyrian culture) and was very Thracian. If Dardani of Troy were to be connected with Dardanians it is only with those who were Daco-Moesian. On that I believe there is a consensus among archaeologists. And subsequent Illyrian Dardanians migrated from the West, that much is also clear (read PH1602, Z631).




I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.


Yes CTS1273 itself does not seem coastal at all.




With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

Thracian was satem and indeed has been connected to Baltic. But the question is where are R1a's - the progenitors of Thracian language? Slavic clades totally dominate. There is another issue of R-Z93 Srubnaya element (and one Thracian Z93 found), among Bulgarians I can identify few likely Thracian clades of Z93. These might have shifted Thracian more into that direction as well. I now know which culture brought these Z93's in Thrace.

Recently I noticed a Serb from Hungary, near Vojvodina border belonged to a very rare but basal clade of Z280: R-S24902*, YP469-, YP561- so no cousins for 4400 ybp. He might be connected to some other Serbs.
This clade does not seem Slavic at all (mostly NW European and only one Slavic cluster) and I believe there are two good scenarios for it:

1. Vatin culture, Vatin as proto-Daco-Moesian. This clade can be originator of the Thracian language if we go with the Baltic connection.

2. Cetina culture. Attested as a strong element in Cetina culture is the Corded Ware element! And CW suggests some R-Z280 (such as R-S24902). According to many even though Cetina is often grouped among Vucedol, there is no evidence Vucedol people played significant role biologically in it. While there is such evidence for Corded Ware people, this is attested in pottery but also in funeral ritual such as cremation being very common in Cetina culture. Of course why Cetina is a good match for V13? Well a local neolithic element (ofc likely) connected to that E-L618 found in Early Neolithic was involved as well.

So from two sides this R-S24902 might be connected to E-V13. And you see Baltoid influenced and E-V13 does not exclude each other at all.
If V13 stems from Cetina one might argue Cetina people were "Baltoid/Corded Ware" influenced from the onset.


About this spread of basal E-CTS1273*s on the Balkans: if your were to find a central focal point of all these 5-6 clades it would be somewhere around the river Struma. According to the Pseudo-Plutarch the older name of the river Strymon was Palaistinos. Which ofc many connect to Pelasgians. One of rare such legitimate connections from Thrace.

In vicinity also R-Y5586 has great diversity - 4300 ybp. Not far also E-FGC44169>S7461 also is diverse. Under S7461 BY5022 (3800 ybp TMRCA) is very diverse in the Middle East, including one cluster in Druze, other in Lebanon, other Arabs etc.

I thought maybe to connect these BY5022 to Philistines and connect that East Balkan diversity area to river Palaistinos but among those 4 Philistines only an R-M269 was found of "genuine" Philistines.

The Greek term Pelasgian is a clear corruption of "Pelast", also Greeks seem to have called various peoples as "Pelasgians", for example the "Pelasgians of Lemnos" who spoke a dialect of Etruscan later are connected with Tyrrhenians (which is realistic and right there on Lemnos a rare clade of G-L497 is found actually). Pre-Greeks also, but vast majority of Greek E-V13's for example do not fit as pre-Greek people at all.. They are post-Mycenian let alone pre-Greek.. But the real Pelastians might have been some people. Considering genuine Philistine names are connected to Indo-European languages it seems to me they were IE or IE-zed group.

Now I was thinking, if R1a is progenitor of Thracians, maybe the progenitor of Pelastians is in fact R-CTS1450, and I'm thinking some CTS1273s maybe spread with that group.

Also to consider there are some other peoples such as Paeonians. There is also significant diversity of R-PF7562 on the Balkans and Albanians as well. Some connected Phillistines to Luwian group as well where PF7562 fits. Going by current data, it seems R-PF7562 was more common than R-Z2705 among Illyrians because R-Z2705 has a TMRCA of 1500 ybp. Yet this group is clearly fundamentally important to Albanian ethogenesis, more important than any other cluster of similar age.


However I think from the POV of Albanian common hg's being J-L283 and E-V13, I think these hg's had very different paths and it is simply impossible to make them part of "one people" at 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC in most cases. Where they were it was mostly due to assimilation.


I read that the relations between Cetina people (likely V13) and Posusje/Dinara (likely L283) who coexisted for some time were "possibly hostile", "competing" etc.
 
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Delmatae culture was connected with major complex of Varvara in Western Bosnia. This is L283 Posusje culture. Pannonians must have been derived in good part from a major Unrfield wave. This must have included R-L51's. But also some E-V13's that got in the way of Unrfield. I suspect E-L241's were prominent among those..
So actually archeologically Delmatae and Pannonians were not alike. Again Urnfield brought with them cremation, uncommon for coastal Illyrians and in general for Posusje culture (J-L283).

One important linguistic evidence to keep in mind is from pg 182 which is copy pasted the previous comment.

Specifically, Katicic mentions Emona in Slovenia, and that there are 3 visible layers of anthroponymy here:

1. East Celtic names which he calls "Noric"
2. Non-Noric Celtic names from an older Celtic onomastic substratum
3. The oldest layer: "North-Adriatic" (Venetic, Istrian, Liburnian)

We know that Venetic is an isolate branch language somehwere in between italo-celtic and germanic and the "illyric" languages.

The three different anthroponymic (all non-Illyrian according to current consensus) layers suggest we should expect also at least three different non-Illyrian archaeological cultures in north west frontier of delmato-pannonians. All three of these had possibility to influence different zones through religious notions about burials to their neighbours etc without entailing linguistic assimilation.

Delmatians and Pannonians may have different archaeological cultures from each other but their onomastic system seems to be the same for now, which means an elevated probability they spoke the same language despite different complexes/origins existing within the group. Pannonians were closer to the frontier with celts and so would have been more likely to experience cultural influence and even assimilation/mixing with oncomers.

(Albanian muslims and catholics in Kosovo have different burials today, but speak identical language.)



Archaeological eviedence on proto-Dardanians from what I read is clear, the Brnjica culture, a subgroup of Vatin (non-West Serbian Vatin which was Illyrian) was totally not Illyrian (one large difference total dominance of cremation in Brnjica and no cremation usually in Glasinac Illyrian culture) and was very Thracian. If Dardani of Troy were to be connected with Dardanians it is only with those who were Daco-Moesian. On that I believe there is a consensus among archaeologists. And subsequent Illyrian Dardanians migrated from the West, that much is also clear (read PH1602, Z631).

I will take some time to respond to this, but will comment this in meanwhile.

Dardania according to Katicic had 3 anthroponymic layers:

1. Illyrian proper
2. Delmato-Pannonian (which he suggests invaded the west dardania at some point and replaced the Illyrian anthroponymy, pg181 in previous comment)
3. Thracian in the east

Important to take into account at least three, and we should look for three different archaeological cultures.




Thracian was satem and indeed has been connected to Baltic.

Important to remember that Messapic was satem also.

But the question is where are R1a's - the progenitors of Thracian language? Slavic clades totally dominate. There is another issue of R-Z93 Srubnaya element, among Bulgarians I can identify few likely Thracian clades of Z93. These might have shifted Thracian more into that direction as well. I now know which culture brought these Z93's in Thrace.

Recently I noticed a Serb from Hungary, near Vojvodina border belonged to a very rare but basal clade of Z380: R-YP4078*, YP469-, YP561- so no cousins for 4400 ybp. He might be connected to some other Serbs.
This clade does not seem Slavic at all and I believe there are two good scenarios for it:

1. Vatin culture, Vatin as proto-Daco-Moesian. This clade can be originator of the Thracian language if we go with the Baltic connection.

2. Cetina culture. Attested as a strong element in Cetina culture is the Corded Ware element! And CW suggests some R-Z280 (such as YP4078). According to many even though Cetina is often grouped among Vucedol, there is no evidence Vucedol people played significant role biologically in it. While there is such evidence for Corded Ware people, this is attested in pottery but also in funeral ritual such as cremation being very common in Cetina culture.

So from two sides this R-YP4078 might be connected to E-V13. And you see Baltoid influenced and E-V13 does not exclude each other at all.
If V13 stems from Cetina one might argue Cetina people were "Baltoid/Corded Ware" influenced from the onset.


About this spread of basal E-CTS1273*s on the Balkans: if your were to find a central focal point of all these 5-6 clades it would be somewhere around the river Struma. According to the Pseudo-Plutarch the older name of the river Strymon was Palaistinos. Which ofc many connect to Pelasgians.

In vicinity also R-Y5586 has great diversity - 4300 ybp. Not far also E-FGC44169>S7461 also is diverse. Under S7461 BY5022 (3800 ybp TMRCA) is very diverse in the Middle East, including one cluster in Druze, other in Lebanon, other Arabs etc.

I thought maybe to connect these BY5022 to Philistines and connect that East Balkan diversity area to river Palaistinos but among those 4 Philistines only a R-M269 was found of "genuine" Philistines.

The Greek term Pelasgian is a clear corruption of "Pelast", also Greeks seem to have called various peoples as "Pelasgians", for example the "Pelasgians of Lemnos" who spoke a dialect of Etruscan later are connected with Tyrrhenians (which is realistic and right there on Lemnos a rare clade of G-L497 is found actually). Pre-Greeks also, but vast majority of Greek E-V13's for example do not fit as pre-Greek people at all.. They are post-Mycenian let alone pre-Greek.. But the real Pelastians might have been some people. Considering genuine Philistine names are connected to Indo-European languages it seems to me they were IE or IE-zed group.

Now I was thinking, if R1a is progenitor of Thracians, maybe the progenitor of Pelastians is in fact R-CTS1450, and I'm thinking some CTS1273s maybe spread with that group.

Also to consider there are some other peoples such as Paeonians. There is also significant diversity of R-PF7562 on the Balkans and Albanians as well. Some connected Phillistines to Luwian group as well where PF7562 fits. Going by current data, it seems R-PF7562 was more common than R-Z2705 among Illyrians because R-Z2705 has a TMRCA of 1500 ybp. Yet this group is clearly fundamentally important to Albanian ethogenesis, more important than any other cluster of similar age.


There is so much here, i think it will take me a bit longer to respond to everything. I am not as knowledgable on R1b, as i've had to defend it less and so haven't become as familiar with it. I am also quite confused by the Brygians, what they must have belonged to. They were centum, so possibly urnfield connected?

I will mention also, that Katicic says the only Baltic hydronomy is found amongst the North-Adriatic regions the most (of the west balkan groups, thracian not included).



However I think from the POV of Albanian common hg's being J-L283 and E-V13, I think these hg's had very different paths and it is simply impossible to make them part of "one people" at 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC in most cases. Where they were it was mostly due to assimilation.


Obviously at one point all our ancestors diverge and cannot have been always one group. I am trying to pinpoint the proto-albanian language and which haplos we should expect to see among proto-albanian speakers. Schumacher publicly stated:

?One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,? Schumacher says. ?Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,? he added."

I don't think we yet know at what point proto-Albanian was identical to another paleo-balkan (proto-greek, etc) language and first began to diverge and attain its individuality, but that is the point at which Albanian history ends (going backwards), and it enters common paleo-balkan history, and after that common IE history.


I read that the relations between Cetina people (likely V13) and Posusje/Dinara (likely L283) who coexisted for some time were "possibly hostile", "competing" etc.

Violence amongst one another is what I would expect to see among Albanian's ancestors. See: highland tribes and feuds.
 
As usual, interesting post rich in content.

I will clarify my position, but there is a lot to work here and I may forget parts and comment extra parts later.

By "simplified meme" I refer to those who mention E-CTS1273 being Central/East Balkan shifted to imlply that this must mean it was Thracian, which is what Bulgarian commenters who comment about EV13 Bulgarian diversity tend to do.

I agree that it is most likely not a coastal lineage and that it probably was not a common lineage among Delmato-Pannonians as Katicic divides them in his onomastic system.

His onomastic system is very useful but does not necessarily tell us if there were different languages being spoken or different ethnicity.

I think delmato-pannonians and illyrians proper were both illyric languages, and one of my reasonings for this is Messapic colonization of Italy, in which we have both delmato-pannonian tribes (iapodes) and dardanian tribes (galabrioi) (which are Illyrian proper according to Katicic's onomastic system).

Differences in naming conventions can arise from different neighbouring influences, religious notions, etc. In Kosovo during the 80s-90s, Albanians took entirely different names (related to patriotic themes) from other Albanians on the other side of the border, as the Yugoslavian disintegration had a cultural effect. Yet Albanians on other side of the border spoke the exact same language.

So katicics name system is very useful, and is very indicivative at the very least of compact cultural zones/ or political zones of influence, and at the very most: different ethnicities that spoke different languages.

I think however, that even if delmato-pannonians were speaking different language to Illyrian's proper, then it was of the same branch, like bulgarian is to slovenian, etc.

Also, the grugni paper mentions both elevated J2b and EV13 in zones of Illyrian colonization, so until we have more higher resolution knowledge, its possible that E-CTS1273 clades were also present in the east-west adriatic movements.

With respect to the Thracian languages, they are either some proto-baltoidic shifted languages, or according to Hamp's late position, some southeastern Germanic branch languages. I personally think the baltoidic scenario is more probable, and for me R1a makes sense as a Thracian lineage, as culturally also they seem to have similarities with other IE R1a cultures. If EV13 was among thracians, as its probable that certain clades were, I am still of the opinion that they must have been culturally assimilated by R1a's.

The distribution of E-CTS1273 all over albanian speaking peoples, both Tosk & Gege to me makes sense more that it belonged to the "Illyrian-proper" complex, while J2b2-L283 and PH1246 which have a North-West distribution among Albanian people most likely belonged to the "Delmato-Pannonian" complex. As I said before, I think they spoke either the same language or a very close one, but they were part of a different geographic and cultural complex.

So when the inland contrast of E-CTS1273 is mentioned, it is done in this simplified manner to skip the "Illyrian-Proper" speakers and go straight from the coast to thracians, which I think doesn't hold up.

Linguistically, the Moesians were Thracians, while the Dardanians were Illyrians, I personally don't think there is a Dardanian-Moesian substrate.

Also with respect to the transportation of basal EV13 clades to the east, Balkan Mysians, Dardanians, and Brygians were in Troy around the Trojan war which is dated around 1300-1200 BC, and the archaeological culture shows movement of material around this time from western balkans and even hungary if I recall correct, so its possible even at this time or earlier, from when Dardanus himself founded the trojan lineage according to myths (probably just a legendary remnant of some dardanian migration to troy).

Likewise I think Zef Mirdita considered the Pirustae an Illyrian tribe and not a Delmatian one, he even wondered whether Romans had simply translated "Darda (pear)" into Latin. "Pirus" (pear). The Dardanian mines were renowned by Romans, and "metallici Dardanicae" or something along the lines of that was found even in Israel, so its not far fetched to assume a pre-Roman mining tradition that invading Romans then utilized. The Dardanian mines of Damastion were used around the time of King Bardylis for example.

JAqdpsR.png


nqJ83Vy.png

Do you know anything about these northern illyrian ancients and if their E marker is also southern

E-M35
E-CTS9320
E-U175
all above from noricum ( east austria ) and friulian mountains

E-M123 north Tyrol ( west austria )

E-V12 trentino Italy


other markers where R1a, R1b, C, T1a1, T1a2, L1b-M317 , G-L497, I1, I2 etc etc


as per illyrians tribes ( red text ) below and before Halstatt culture, I am unsure where these E plotted

 
^ As usual, Sile posting nonsense 😂
 
E-V13, E-PH1246 and E-CTS1273 all happened 2000BC and 3000BC. They are too old to be associated with Illyrians or Thracians, who were mainly IA peoples. We don't even know if Illyrians existed as such before 1500BC. If we look further back to when E-V13 started spreading we are within the IE migration timeline. With a similar logic we could claim Irishmen come from Scythians based on R-L23 and R-M269 diversity. In addition, the diversity of the earliest E-V13 clades differs a lot from subclade to subclade.

For Illyrians and other IA peoples, it makes more sense to focus on clades with tmrca-s of ~2500-3500 ybp. Any potential Albanian-Illyrian connections in E-V13, are better explored by looking at CTS9320, PH2180, FGC11450, FGC33621, and a few other, rarer clades.
 
1. E-CTS1273* Borove, Albania
2. E-CTS1273* Jegunovtse, Macedonia these consider themselves Serbs, have been tested some time ago, maybe they fit somewhere under existing clades, haven't checked.
3.a E-Y16729* Konsko, Macedonia, this is an Aromanian cluster

3.b E-Y16729* Brashlyan , Bulgaria
4. E-CTS1273* Pleven, Bulgaria
5. E-FGC44169>A9723 Turk from Bulgaria, above already Eastern Balkan E-S7461,
6. ? YF12550 is CTS1273* at YFull but at FTDNA he is under Z5018>BY6219, ethnic Bulgarian from Northern Greece.

I generally agree with you but I need to give some clarification about some things in your post since you mentioned me indirectly in your post and also about this "serb" guy!

First, neither me nor my closest matches in FTDNA database identify as Aromanians.
I identify as a Macedonian although I define Macedonians as people who ultimately trace their origin and language to Bulgarian Empire of the Medieval and who share the same history and historical figures with the Bulgarians(ofc, not Alexander the Great which has nothing to do with our real history)!
You can look on this as in the case between Austria and Germany...
There is no memory in my family that any of my ancestors ever spoke Aromanian or identified as Aromanian or Vlach!
Although as you already know, I share some str values with Aromanians, but these Aromanians are not SNP tested and the str values we share are just a few, therefore you can not qualify this cluster as "Aromanian" until we get some NGS result of an actual Aromanian!
As you know, the village was mentioned as a former Vlach village and plus there is some Aromanian base in my surname and my match's surname which leads me to the same conclusion of Aromanian origin. Basically, the match which is 4/67 with me, goes with surname which can be derived from the Aromanian word "Dada" which could mean either a mother, an older sister or a grandma in Aromanian, while my surname has as a base the word "ghiush" or "gjush' which in Aromanian means grandpa! So there is definitely some connection and it seems this is a real match although our surnames are different.

And this is in context with my second elaboration about the guy who you said that identifies as a Serb.

I don't know whether the guy identifies as a Serb or not, and even if it's true, and if we are talking about the same guy, he doesn't have any matches with Serbs! He is 2/37 with a Macedonian guy from Vratnice in Jegunovce in Macedonia. That's his closest match on 37 markers and unfortunately the other guy isn't tested further than that. So this is probably a local Macedonian cluster with geographical location in the north of Republic of N.Macedonia.
 
Dada is actually Albanian and basically means older sister. Same thing for Gjysh, means grandfather. And as far as I know, you trace your ancestry to some village in southern Albania.
 
I generally agree with you but I need to give some clarification about some things in your post since you mentioned me indirectly in your post and also about this "serb" guy!

First, neither me nor my closest matches in FTDNA database identify as Aromanians.
I identify as a Macedonian although I define Macedonians as people who ultimately trace their origin and language to Bulgarian Empire of the Medieval and who share the same history and historical figures with the Bulgarians(ofc, not Alexander the Great which has nothing to do with our real history)!

You can look on this as in the case between Austria and Germany...
There is no memory in my family that any of my ancestors ever spoke Aromanian or identified as Aromanian or Vlach!
Although as you already know, I share some str values with Aromanians, but these Aromanians are not SNP tested and the str values we share are just a few, therefore you can not qualify this cluster as "Aromanian" until we get some NGS result of an actual Aromanian!
As you know, the village was mentioned as a former Vlach village and plus there is some Aromanian base in my surname and my match's surname which leads me to the same conclusion of Aromanian origin. Basically, the match which is 4/67 with me, goes with surname which can be derived from the Aromanian word "Dada" which could mean either a mother, an older sister or a grandma in Aromanian, while my surname has as a base the word "ghiush" or "gjush' which in Aromanian means grandpa! So there is definitely some connection and it seems this is a real match although our surnames are different.

I see. In Aromanian study of 175 Aromanians 10 of them (5 from Stip and 5 from Dukasi) belonged to a haplotype whose off-modal STR's were dys358b=19 + dys389b=16. You share both of these with a Greek so I guess they have at least minimal age in your cluster. I want to give these Aromanians the best guess as to what subclade they could belong to considering this is the largest E-V13 cluster among them (5.7 % of tested). Obviously your E-Y16729* cluster seems like a good candidate also considering location, and yes, that little detail about your village being inhabited by Aromanians also helps.

Indeed they are only tested for 19 STR's and not SNP tested but those STR combinations are not frequent among E-V13's. For ex. one British cluster of BY5022 (Wright brothers haplotype actually) but they are far away.. One of my cousins matches but his value on 385b is likely relatively recent, plus they don't match on two important STR's for my subclade, one Croat Z16988 has it but not sure how old are these in him etc.. If they are (it is quite likely they are) E-Y16729 likely those from Dukasi migrated there from Macedonia considering your distant Bulgarian cousin.

So few Aromanians have been tested, so that study is still of some importance, actually recently Albanians have tested a number of Aromanians from Albania so there is sort of a mini Vlach project over there.

About Macedonians and Bulglarians, I agree that Macedonians are closer to Bulgarians, the language is far more related to Bulgarian than it is to Serbian etc. It may be considered a dialect of Bulgarian.

I don't know whether the guy identifies as a Serb or not, and even if it's true, and if we are talking about the same guy, he doesn't have any matches with Serbs! He is 2/37 with a Macedonian guy from Vratnice in Jegunovce in Macedonia. That's his closest match on 37 markers and unfortunately the other guy isn't tested further than that. So this is probably a local Macedonian cluster with geographical location in the north of Republic of N.Macedonia.

Ah I just know they are/were on Serbian project, and I know they don't match any Serbs, so I "guessed" that they "may identify" as such, also they had some Patron Saint info written, though also Serbs who have recent non-Serbian origin tend to adopt it. Yes I know both of these Vratnice and Jegunovce.
Anyway if you know him, you might suggest him to do BigY. In the absence of any matches it is reasonable to assume they are local in that area.
 
Dada is actually Albanian and basically means older sister. Same thing for Gjysh, means grandfather. And as far as I know, you trace your ancestry to some village in southern Albania.

Yes, I am aware of the similarities between Albanian and Aromanian. Also as I said already "Dada" and "Ghiush" means Grandmother and Grandfather in Aromanian language. This coupled with the Aromanian matches in a study of 2006 about the Aromanians in Macedonia and Albania and no matches with Albanians whatsoever, gives more likely explanation to be the Aromanian.

No, my ancestry is from the far south of today's N.Macedonia but I suspect some migrations to have taken place from South Albania in the past.
 
Yes, I am aware of the similarities between Albanian and Aromanian. Also as I said already "Dada" and "Ghiush" means Grandmother and Grandfather in Aromanian language. This coupled with the Aromanian matches in a study of 2006 about the Aromanians in Macedonia and Albania and no matches with Albanians whatsoever, gives more likely explanation to be the Aromanian.

No, my ancestry is from the far south of today's N.Macedonia but I suspect some migrations to have taken place from South Albania in the past.
Those are Albanian words, so couldn’t tell you if Aromanians use them. Perhaps some Aromanians from Albania do. You told me a while back that your ancestors moved from southern Albanian to Macedonia in distant past.


V13 is looking quite diverse in southern Albania so you never know what your ancestors were. You are only guessing that they were Vlahs based on the type of village they settled in Macedonia.
 
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V13 is looking quite diverse in southern Albania so you never know what your ancestors were. You are only guessing that they were Vlahs based on the type of village they settled in Macedonia.

Aromanians as a people are usually connected to Eastern Balkan/Central/Eastern Balkan. That is where their ethnogenesis occurred according to many authors, their language is classified as East Balkan Romance language distinct of those in the West. Sure there are a number of locals especially of those from Albania (such as that L283 cluster, and possibly your dys392=11 cousins) but there are also those with Eastern links.

About V13 diversity and percentage in South Albania, I would say it is caused in big part by Late Bronze Age Collapse.

I think this event (or more properly string of events) caused greater mingling of cultures and hg's, and Johane Derite was talking about 3000 year mark, and that generally falls close to this event. So yes one should talk about Illyrians rather after this event.

Subsequently in the archaeology of Southern Albania a separate Illyrian culture is mentioned, often labelled Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture distinct from Glasinac-Mati culture, it is quite reasonable to assume that E-V13 clades are more involved with this culture than J-L283.
 

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