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Thread: Albanians = Illyrian

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Albanians = Illyrian

    Let us clarify this once and for all.

    Albanians, Ghegs in particular, carry 90%+ of the old y-lineages of Illyrians:



    It seems people in here cannot deal with this fact, it is a large pill to swallow, yet it is the truth.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I like your direct approach, how did you come up with 90%.


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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I like your direct approach, how did you come up with 90%.


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    That's how it should be. Direct approach is the way of the Albanian.

    In all Gheg regions, our EV13 varies 35-40%
    J2b2-L283 25-30%
    R1b-L23 25-30%

    In a sampling of northwest Gheg areas I've even seen J2b2-L283 reach up to 35%, makes sense due to its proximity to the Ancient J2b2 sample.

    From what I've seen in the pure Gheg tribal areas up north, we get 99-100% of these haplogroups combined.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.
    What do you mean?


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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.
    Nope, all three haplogroups were present in the balkans by the time we can begin talking about Illyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    What do you mean?


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    The arrival of the Illyrians is usually dated to the Middle Bronze Age. Before that there's really no distinctive Illyrian material culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The arrival of the Illyrians is usually dated to the Middle Bronze Age. Before that there's really no distinctive Illyrian material culture.
    By the middle bronze age all three haplogroups were in the western balkans, ergo all three of them were most likely found among Illyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    By the middle bronze age all three haplogroups were in the western balkans, ergo all three of them were most likely found among Illyrians.
    I think the V13 expansion might be more associated with the eastern Balkans. Gotta wait for the Bosnian guy though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I think the V13 expansion might be more associated with the eastern Balkans. Gotta wait for the Bosnian guy though.
    Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
    It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)

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    Well, I myself believe that the most likely origin of the Albanian language is in late IA Illyrians, possibly having also absorbed some Daco-Thracian people and got some influence from them, basically those who lived near what is now Kosovo (North Albania, Kosovo, South Serbia)... But I still don't think it's technically correct to say "they descend from Illyrians, because most of them have the same Y-DNA haplogroups, so case closed". R1b-Z2103, J2B-L283 and E1b-L618 all predate the actual Illyrian population by millennia, so they may even be associated with them, but they certainly do not depended on the Illyrians alone to exist and expand. It's totally possible that some other neighboring ethnicities, beside the Illyrians, also had the same lineages.

    Besides, Y-DNA haplogroups can easily boom or bust in frequencies and are so subject to genetic drift that it's totally possible, perhaps even likely that even in the absence of any major admixture with other people (which is also unlikely over millennia) the Y-DNA distribution will become different from the ancient Y-DNA distribution after 2000 or 3000 years.

    Additionally, of course there is also the fact that we just don't know if those aDNA samples were "Illyrian" (well, Illyrian in an ethnic/cultural sense they most certainly were not, maybe "pre-proto-Illyrian" or something). This hypothesis assumes as a fact that not just genetic, but also complete ethnocultural continuity happened in the western Balkans since basically the Late Neolithic, whereas these lineages might've been just assimilated by Illyrians.


    So, I think these Y-DNA are an evidence, but certainly not an unquestionable proof as the OP seems to think.

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    @ygorcs

    Even before the DNA revolution there were countless evidence, both linguistic, historical and archaeological that albanian descended for the most part(if not "fully") from Illyrian tribes.

    The ancient DNA and modern distribution of haplogroups are merely supporting what most have been arguing for a very very long time.

    Albanians are just as much descendants of Illyrians as Danes are descendants of Vikings. In the sense that of course there will be some outside influence in the course of thousands of years, but if everything points towards that the main cultural, linguistic and genetic components have remained in the same line of evolution since the Illyrians, there is no reason to deny Illyrian/Albanian continuity. For example, culturally the modern Danes and Iron age Danes are much further apart culturally than Albanians and Illyrians are, yet we don't see anyone saying that Danes are are not in direct continuation from the vikings or Iron age populations of Denmark.
    So what motivation can people have to continually set all rules and norms aside when the Albanians are under the loop? (the last question is not directed towards you, but towards the general tendencies of our neighbours when it comes to historical sciences)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    @ygorcs

    Even before the DNA revolution there were countless evidence, both linguistic, historical and archaeological that albanian descended for the most part(if not "fully") from Illyrian tribes.

    The ancient DNA and modern distribution of haplogroups are merely supporting what most have been arguing for a very very long time.

    Albanians are just as much descendants of Illyrians as Danes are descendants of Vikings. In the sense that of course there will be some outside influence in the course of thousands of years, but if everything points towards that the main cultural, linguistic and genetic components have remained in the same line of evolution since the Illyrians, there is no reason to deny Illyrian/Albanian continuity. For example, culturally the modern Danes and Iron age Danes are much further apart culturally than Albanians and Illyrians are, yet we don't see anyone saying that Danes are are not in direct continuation from the vikings or Iron age populations of Denmark.
    So what motivation can people have to continually set all rules and norms aside when the Albanians are under the loop? (the last question is not directed towards you, but towards the general tendencies of our neighbours when it comes to historical sciences)
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it 🤷*♂️

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
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    According to our project E-v13 + J2-L283 + R1b are about 75 % at Ghegs, and 50 % at Tosks. Interestingly J2-L283 is only 7 % at Tosks.

    Established Illyrians for sure had many other haplogroups too. Like for example J2a influence from Mycenaeans.

    EDIT: Now i just noticed that Tosks have more J2a then J2b2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️
    Autosomal plots are cool toys to play around with but should in no way be taken seriously, or better put as the absolute evidence. Even in matter of generations autosomal DNA can drastically change let alone over thousands of years.

    Test their Y-DNA and then come here and litter these threads with your nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️
    Vikings went to Iceland a long time ago. Since then, they have gone through genetic processes like drift and selection. This has resulted in Icelanders having their own specific autosomal genetic profile, which is much different than both the vikings they descend from, and from other modern Scandinavian groups.

    Does this make Icelanders any "less" descended from the vikings?

    And that was just an isolated place in the middle of the atlantic.

    Now imagine how much drift and selection there would be in the balkans, which has been practically the center of the known world for many empires the last 3000 years. It would be naive too expect Albanians to plot autosomally with a population from 3000 years ago, even though they are their descendants.
    That is why in this case, Y-DNA is a better tool for reconstructing ancient movements of men in the last couple of thousands of years on the peninsula of Balkan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Vikings went to Iceland a long time ago. Since then, they have gone through genetic processes like drift and selection. This has resulted in Icelanders having their own specific autosomal genetic profile, which is much different than both the vikings they descend from, and from other modern Scandinavian groups.

    Does this make Icelanders any "less" descended from the vikings?

    And that was just an isolated place in the middle of the atlantic.

    Now imagine how much drift and selection there would be in the balkans, which has been practically the center of the known world for many empires the last 3000 years. It would be naive too expect Albanians to plot autosomally with a population from 3000 years ago, even though they are their descendants.
    That is why in this case, Y-DNA is a better tool for reconstructing ancient movements of men in the last couple of thousands of years on the peninsula of Balkan.
    It's not drift, the ancestral components are different. You can test it with formal statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It's not drift, the ancestral components are different. You can test it with formal statistics.
    Drift, selection. Take your pick.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Long story short, no matter the thousands of facts brought to prove the Illyrian origin, as long as there exist Thracian or Dacian or whatever else "hints", the unfriendly community will always prefer the Thracian/Dacian hypothesis while still acting open-minded and neutral by not completely refuting the Illyrian hypothesis in order to not lose face and credibility.

    So anything but Illyrian. They're loyal to their nation and their forefathers who tried so hard to make us late migrants.

    If they only visited Albania and paid close attention to phenotypes and then go to Wikipedia to see the faces of all the Roman Emperors of Illyrian or Thracian origin (including some real Romans) they'll understand the striking resemblance and continuation. Obviously this is not "scientific" evidence unlike dear Georgiev and his bs theories about the lack of maritime words despite the fact that his ancestors changed their language at least 4 times.

    @markod and @ygorcs, is it your Slavic heritage that makes you (perhaps even subconsciously) so dismissive of anything related to the Illyrians?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Even if they found 100 Illyrians bearing Albanian clades, you will still have these dweebs denying the truth and claiming I2a1b was Illyrian when theres not one drop of DNA remains to support it. Even with evidence supporting Albanian descent they will deny it. Even if it was just a few surviving Illyrian tribes, it makes no difference. Bottle neck or no. You got that fool Carlos spreading his BS about E-V13 spreading with Slavs from Moravia claiming Albanian V13 moved from there.

    I think the important thing to remember is that 99 percent of these forum scientists and historians are merely dabbling in guess work and probably have no actual position in the scientific community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Drift, selection. Take your pick.
    Albanians are shifted towards CHG/Asia Minor. Selection doesn't explain this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Albanians are shifted towards CHG/Asia Minor. Selection doesn't explain this.
    You mean shifted towards Imperial Romans? You are very desperate to disentangle at any point possible Albanians from their heritage. But the crux of your argument being autosomal is very weak.

    Very plain and simple fact is that 90% of Albanian Y-Dna is west-balkanic and your argument amounts to saying that our male ancestors have had many greek and slav women since then to shift them a bit south-east.

    A very desperate and pathetic endevaour from your end to be honest. Instead of focusing on your own history, all you do is hover above Albanian related topics and play the game of the contrarian and provocateur.

    Sad...
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    You mean shifted towards Imperial Romans? You are very desperate to disentangle at any point possible Albanians from their heritage. But the crux of your argument being autosomal is very weak.

    Very plain and simple fact is that 90% of Albanian Y-Dna is west-balkanic and your argument amounts to saying that our male ancestors have had many greek and slav women since then to shift them a bit south-east.

    A very desperate and pathetic endevaour from your end to be honest. Instead of focusing on your own history, all you do is hover above Albanian related topics and play the game of the contrarian and provocateur.

    Sad...
    The CHG shift is too strong, and it doesn't affect Bosnians and Croats, who presumably mixed with the local populations. So you'd need an influx of Anatolian women after the Slavs came to Bosnia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The CHG shift is too strong, and it doesn't affect Bosnians and Croats, who presumably mixed with the local populations. So you'd need an influx of Anatolian women after the Slavs came to Bosnia.
    They did mix, but not to such a great extent that bosnians and croats would conserve the autosomal profile of the natives.
    A place with a big population turnover(Like bosnia/croatia during slavic migrations), would of course be genetically pulled away from the places which didn't have those migrations(Albania etc.). Some components would be diluted more than others due to random selection, CHG could be one of those.
    Albanians conserved more of the CHG they got from Romans, due to not being overrun by slavs.

    So most of the extra CHG would probably be an artifact from imperial rome and the early eastern roman empire.

    Anatolian women are not out of the question either. Although their impact would be much, much smaller(if not even invisible altogether).
    My family has personally brought in women a couple of times from Izmir in Turkey, and from Austria, in the course of the last 200 years.
    We were albanians before we brought them in, and we were still Albanian afterwards, even though our family may have had a minor rise in CHG due to those women.

    The luxury of bringing in exotic women was of course mostly confined to the wealthier families, which is why it wasn't widespread at all to bring in anatolian women.
    But selection would make those genes expand even to peasants and the middle class, because these persons with elevated CHG(from anatolian women) would be from wealthy families and would therefore have better healthcare and better reproduction rates due to kids not dying during birth. Their wealth would also make them able to feed more kids and bring more kids towards a succesful future with kids of their own.

    In other words:
    A few aristocratic families importing a few anatolian women, would be enough for a minor elevation of CHG of a whole small town in the course of 200 years. That town would in turn mix with people from other towns, thus spreading the minor increase in CHG to those towns as well.

    But, again, most part of the CHG is probably from the times of the roman empire as Derite pointed out.
    Last edited by Ernekar; 26-05-19 at 15:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    They did mix, but not to such a great extent that bosnians and croats would conserve the autosomal profile of the natives.
    A place with a big population turnover(Like bosnia/croatia during slavic migrations), would of course be genetically pulled away from the places which didn't have those migrations(Albania etc.). Some components would be diluted more than others due to random selection, CHG could be one of those.
    Albanians conserved more of the CHG they got from Romans, due to not being overrun by slavs.

    So most of the extra CHG would probably be an artifact from imperial rome and the early eastern roman empire.

    Anatolian women are not out of the question either. Although their impact would be much, much smaller(if not even invisible altogether).
    My family has personally brought in women a couple of times from Izmir in Turkey, and from Austria, in the course of the last 200 years.
    We were albanians before we brought them in, and we were still Albanian afterwards, even though our family may have had a minor rise in CHG due to those women.

    The luxury of bringing in exotic women was of course mostly confined to the wealthier families, which is why it wasn't widespread at all to bring in anatolian women.
    But selection would make those genes expand even to peasants and the middle class, because these persons with elevated CHG(from anatolian women) would be from wealthy families and would therefore have better healthcare and better reproduction rates due to kids not dying during birth. Their wealth would also make them able to feed more kids and bring more kids towards a succesful future with kids of their own.

    In other words:
    A few aristocratic families importing a few anatolian women, would be enough for a minor elevation of CHG of a whole small town in the course of 200 years. That town would in turn mix with people from other towns, thus spreading the minor increase in CHG to those towns as well.

    But, again, most part of the CHG is probably from the times of the roman empire as Derite pointed out.

    So what is your claim here?


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