Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 70

Thread: Albanians = Illyrian

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Ned Stark the Boromir Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Fatherland's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-03-17
    Posts
    388
    Points
    634
    Level
    6
    Points: 634, Level: 6
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Albanians = Illyrian

    Let us clarify this once and for all.

    Albanians, Ghegs in particular, carry 90%+ of the old y-lineages of Illyrians:



    It seems people in here cannot deal with this fact, it is a large pill to swallow, yet it is the truth.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    574
    Points
    3,562
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,562, Level: 17
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I like your direct approach, how did you come up with 90%.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  3. #3
    Ned Stark the Boromir Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Fatherland's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-03-17
    Posts
    388
    Points
    634
    Level
    6
    Points: 634, Level: 6
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I like your direct approach, how did you come up with 90%.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    That's how it should be. Direct approach is the way of the Albanian.

    In all Gheg regions, our EV13 varies 35-40%
    J2b2-L283 25-30%
    R1b-L23 25-30%

    In a sampling of northwest Gheg areas I've even seen J2b2-L283 reach up to 35%, makes sense due to its proximity to the Ancient J2b2 sample.

    From what I've seen in the pure Gheg tribal areas up north, we get 99-100% of these haplogroups combined.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    43
    Posts
    574
    Points
    3,562
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,562, Level: 17
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 288
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.
    What do you mean?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    What do you mean?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    The arrival of the Illyrians is usually dated to the Middle Bronze Age. Before that there's really no distinctive Illyrian material culture.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The arrival of the Illyrians is usually dated to the Middle Bronze Age. Before that there's really no distinctive Illyrian material culture.
    By the middle bronze age all three haplogroups were in the western balkans, ergo all three of them were most likely found among Illyrians.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    By the middle bronze age all three haplogroups were in the western balkans, ergo all three of them were most likely found among Illyrians.
    I think the V13 expansion might be more associated with the eastern Balkans. Gotta wait for the Bosnian guy though.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Only one of those three could be Illyrian.
    Nope, all three haplogroups were present in the balkans by the time we can begin talking about Illyrians.

  10. #10
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,725
    Points
    26,601
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,601, Level: 50
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 949
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Well, I myself believe that the most likely origin of the Albanian language is in late IA Illyrians, possibly having also absorbed some Daco-Thracian people and got some influence from them, basically those who lived near what is now Kosovo (North Albania, Kosovo, South Serbia)... But I still don't think it's technically correct to say "they descend from Illyrians, because most of them have the same Y-DNA haplogroups, so case closed". R1b-Z2103, J2B-L283 and E1b-L618 all predate the actual Illyrian population by millennia, so they may even be associated with them, but they certainly do not depended on the Illyrians alone to exist and expand. It's totally possible that some other neighboring ethnicities, beside the Illyrians, also had the same lineages.

    Besides, Y-DNA haplogroups can easily boom or bust in frequencies and are so subject to genetic drift that it's totally possible, perhaps even likely that even in the absence of any major admixture with other people (which is also unlikely over millennia) the Y-DNA distribution will become different from the ancient Y-DNA distribution after 2000 or 3000 years.

    Additionally, of course there is also the fact that we just don't know if those aDNA samples were "Illyrian" (well, Illyrian in an ethnic/cultural sense they most certainly were not, maybe "pre-proto-Illyrian" or something). This hypothesis assumes as a fact that not just genetic, but also complete ethnocultural continuity happened in the western Balkans since basically the Late Neolithic, whereas these lineages might've been just assimilated by Illyrians.


    So, I think these Y-DNA are an evidence, but certainly not an unquestionable proof as the OP seems to think.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    @ygorcs

    Even before the DNA revolution there were countless evidence, both linguistic, historical and archaeological that albanian descended for the most part(if not "fully") from Illyrian tribes.

    The ancient DNA and modern distribution of haplogroups are merely supporting what most have been arguing for a very very long time.

    Albanians are just as much descendants of Illyrians as Danes are descendants of Vikings. In the sense that of course there will be some outside influence in the course of thousands of years, but if everything points towards that the main cultural, linguistic and genetic components have remained in the same line of evolution since the Illyrians, there is no reason to deny Illyrian/Albanian continuity. For example, culturally the modern Danes and Iron age Danes are much further apart culturally than Albanians and Illyrians are, yet we don't see anyone saying that Danes are are not in direct continuation from the vikings or Iron age populations of Denmark.
    So what motivation can people have to continually set all rules and norms aside when the Albanians are under the loop? (the last question is not directed towards you, but towards the general tendencies of our neighbours when it comes to historical sciences)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    @ygorcs

    Even before the DNA revolution there were countless evidence, both linguistic, historical and archaeological that albanian descended for the most part(if not "fully") from Illyrian tribes.

    The ancient DNA and modern distribution of haplogroups are merely supporting what most have been arguing for a very very long time.

    Albanians are just as much descendants of Illyrians as Danes are descendants of Vikings. In the sense that of course there will be some outside influence in the course of thousands of years, but if everything points towards that the main cultural, linguistic and genetic components have remained in the same line of evolution since the Illyrians, there is no reason to deny Illyrian/Albanian continuity. For example, culturally the modern Danes and Iron age Danes are much further apart culturally than Albanians and Illyrians are, yet we don't see anyone saying that Danes are are not in direct continuation from the vikings or Iron age populations of Denmark.
    So what motivation can people have to continually set all rules and norms aside when the Albanians are under the loop? (the last question is not directed towards you, but towards the general tendencies of our neighbours when it comes to historical sciences)
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it 🤷*♂️

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,958
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,958, Level: 15
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️
    Autosomal plots are cool toys to play around with but should in no way be taken seriously, or better put as the absolute evidence. Even in matter of generations autosomal DNA can drastically change let alone over thousands of years.

    Test their Y-DNA and then come here and litter these threads with your nonsense.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️
    Vikings went to Iceland a long time ago. Since then, they have gone through genetic processes like drift and selection. This has resulted in Icelanders having their own specific autosomal genetic profile, which is much different than both the vikings they descend from, and from other modern Scandinavian groups.

    Does this make Icelanders any "less" descended from the vikings?

    And that was just an isolated place in the middle of the atlantic.

    Now imagine how much drift and selection there would be in the balkans, which has been practically the center of the known world for many empires the last 3000 years. It would be naive too expect Albanians to plot autosomally with a population from 3000 years ago, even though they are their descendants.
    That is why in this case, Y-DNA is a better tool for reconstructing ancient movements of men in the last couple of thousands of years on the peninsula of Balkan.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Vikings went to Iceland a long time ago. Since then, they have gone through genetic processes like drift and selection. This has resulted in Icelanders having their own specific autosomal genetic profile, which is much different than both the vikings they descend from, and from other modern Scandinavian groups.

    Does this make Icelanders any "less" descended from the vikings?

    And that was just an isolated place in the middle of the atlantic.

    Now imagine how much drift and selection there would be in the balkans, which has been practically the center of the known world for many empires the last 3000 years. It would be naive too expect Albanians to plot autosomally with a population from 3000 years ago, even though they are their descendants.
    That is why in this case, Y-DNA is a better tool for reconstructing ancient movements of men in the last couple of thousands of years on the peninsula of Balkan.
    It's not drift, the ancestral components are different. You can test it with formal statistics.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-15
    Posts
    75
    Points
    3,889
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,889, Level: 18
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 97.0%


    Country: Albania



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have Dalmatian, Pannonian and Montenegrin samples, none of which plot with Albanians. Future samples from Kosovo might, but I doubt it ������*♂️
    Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

    Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

    This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

    Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

    That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

    Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

    And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

    So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

    What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

    Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Besa View Post
    Montenigrin Bronze Age sample did plot with some Northern Albanians. Despite it's just a Bronze age it was almost 100% like a modern Albanian. It scored like 83% Balkan on DNA LAND. While a lot of Albanians score 100%. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Seems like you're just talking out of your ass here.

    Those samples from Dalmatia and Pannonia were not found in Albanian lands but even their autosomal profile overlaps with Albanians, especially the similarity with Italians, and you can see autosomal changes especially when you look at vucedol sample and dalmatian samples to see the difference even among them. Not to mention that these samples date to the Bronze Age, like 2000-3000 years ago. Their autosomal profile could easily change within a thousand years later. You see this in the Eastern Balkans, there is a huge shift from Bronze Age to Iron Age in clustering.

    This doesn't change the same Y-DNA frequency. That Bosnian guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's claiming some Y-DNA clades in Albos are East Balkan in origin when they are actually West Balkan. Some of the matches with Bulgarians is mostly due to Albanian migrations into Bulgaria as you even have Albanian villages there.

    Albanians don't all plot the same. There is a variety. It was the same with Ilyrians and Thracians. I am as distant to Southern Albanians on a PCA MAP as I am to those samples from Dalmatia. Actually that Vucedol sample clusters closer to me than many Southern Albos do.

    That Thracians clustering south of Tuscans was clustering with some Southern Albanians. ANother Thracian found was more North like Ghegs. and more similar to that Bronze Age from Montenegro (A proto-Ilyrian). Southern Ilyrians and Thracians were similar in clustering.

    Not sure what makes you think samples from Kosovo wouldn't plot with Albos when we have a Bronze Age from Montenegro who is almost 100% like an Albo and Thracians who clustered with Albos who literally bordered Kosova and even inhabited it's Eastern Part.. I guess you are just talking wishful thinking here.. So no doubt , people that lived in Montenegro, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania were basically in autosomal like Albos. This will be proven eventually. It has already somewhat been shown but of course you obviously and many others don't wanna see. What they need to do is find samples more later in time also. In Croatia they might of been more Western shifted but there is still an obvious overlap. I don't know about Serbia, Romania and Bosnia.

    And autosomal changes , especially in a larger inhabited land. You see this when even you look at the difference between Vucedol and Dalmatian samples. This is because of the frequency of Steppe+Neolithic+Hunter Gatherer that varies depending on the area, it isn't automatically even.

    So when the Proto-Illyrians made their way more South in the Balkans of course their autosomal could of changed. The Y-DNA clearly remained the same.

    What is rather hilarious here is you using Bronze Age samples from Croatia to disprove an Ilyrian origin by autosomal ignoring the similar Y-DNA and even the autosomal overlap.

    Other populations might of carried same Y-DNA also but it's no coincidence that Albanians are Western Balkanites and carry the same y-DNA as these ancient west Balkan samples. Also we inhabit the same are as Ilyrians, there is no reason to speculate they disappeared out of thin air.
    I think your memory has failed you there, like the other potential Illyrians Kotor_BA plots in Western Europe close to Iberians.


  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    377
    Points
    3,308
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,308, Level: 16
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 58.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    According to our project E-v13 + J2-L283 + R1b are about 75 % at Ghegs, and 50 % at Tosks. Interestingly J2-L283 is only 7 % at Tosks.

    Established Illyrians for sure had many other haplogroups too. Like for example J2a influence from Mycenaeans.

    EDIT: Now i just noticed that Tosks have more J2a then J2b2.

  19. #19
    Ned Stark the Boromir Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Fatherland's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-03-17
    Posts
    388
    Points
    634
    Level
    6
    Points: 634, Level: 6
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    According to our project E-v13 + J2-L283 + R1b are about 75 % at Ghegs, and 50 % at Tosks. Interestingly J2-L283 is only 7 % at Tosks.

    Established Illyrians for sure had many other haplogroups too. Like for example J2a influence from Mycenaeans.

    EDIT: Now i just noticed that Tosks have more J2a then J2b2.
    90%+ of the 3 main Albanian haplogroups in Ghegs last time I checked. The more you move towards the pure Gheg regions, the only haplotypes you will find are J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and EV13, with minor I1.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    377
    Points
    3,308
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,308, Level: 16
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 58.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    90%+ of the 3 main Albanian haplogroups in Ghegs last time I checked. The more you move towards the pure Gheg regions, the only haplotypes you will find are J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and EV13, with minor I1.

    I'm pretty sure its 75 % at Ghegs and 50 % at Tosks - http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    We got lots of new samples lately.

    There is plenty of other haplogroups in Gheg areas...

    For example there is our very interesting Dibra R1a cluster, Very very Gheg haplogroup.. Even guy with Gega surname got it..

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second Class10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dibran's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-09-16
    Posts
    805
    Points
    12,262
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,262, Level: 33
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 388
    Overall activity: 99.1%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I'm pretty sure its 75 % at Ghegs and 50 % at Tosks - http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    We got lots of new samples lately.

    There is plenty of other haplogroups in Gheg areas...

    For example there is our very interesting Dibra R1a cluster, Very very Gheg haplogroup.. Even guy with Gega surname got it..
    Our Dibra cluster is so far the only confirmed Albanian founder effect in R1a. Gega like myself is from Okshtun. It still likely arrived with Proto-Slavic tribes, or carried minimally by Goths in the early middle ages before incubating among Proto-Albanians. It still is a northern barbarian lineage. Even though it took part in Albanian ethnogenesis, it was not around during the Illyrian time frame. Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg. The rest of R1a/I2a1b seems more general and Southern derived. I know 2 Mat samples in CTS1211 may have their own founder effect. Of course none of them tested any further so who knows.

    It is important to remember Diber is also under sampled, like many other areas. Regardless if its 75 or 90, it still seems majority of the lineages among Ghegs are paleo-balkan in origin.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    321
    Points
    3,221
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,221, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 229
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg.
    There are no Tosk Dibra cluster results in the project so far, but there are 2 Tosks from two studies that fall in that cluster. There is ALB371fta from Boattini et al and ht147 from Ferri et al. Maybe they are from the Elbasan-Librazhd, maybe Gramsh area, but still south of Shkumbin, which would qualify them as Tosks. But I agree that it does look more common around Diber.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registeredThree Friends
    Dema's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    377
    Points
    3,308
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,308, Level: 16
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 142
    Overall activity: 58.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Our Dibra cluster is so far the only confirmed Albanian founder effect in R1a. Gega like myself is from Okshtun. It still likely arrived with Proto-Slavic tribes, or carried minimally by Goths in the early middle ages before incubating among Proto-Albanians. It still is a northern barbarian lineage. Even though it took part in Albanian ethnogenesis, it was not around during the Illyrian time frame. Also, so far, it appears anyone in the Dibra cluster is a Gheg. The rest of R1a/I2a1b seems more general and Southern derived. I know 2 Mat samples in CTS1211 may have their own founder effect. Of course none of them tested any further so who knows.

    It is important to remember Diber is also under sampled, like many other areas. Regardless if its 75 or 90, it still seems majority of the lineages among Ghegs are paleo-balkan in origin.

    Yes i agree, i only mentioned your clade as example as it is found mostly among Ghegs and its neiter R1b v13 or l283. I can give plenty of other examples also. It may be of Proto-Slavic tribes but since becoming Albanian it spread exclusively among Albanians (TMRCA 1200 years).

    It is exclusively Albanian Gheg R1a clade nowadays. If you find me any Slav with it and not having earlier separation i will accuse him for being of Albanian origin : )


    Most of Albanian E-v13 R1b and J2-L283 clades are most likely Illyrian in origin, however they represent only a tiny fraction of once all of ancient Illyrian lines.
    After severe bottlenecks, most of Albanian lines spread in last 1000 - 1500 years. While the rest bottlenecked out of Albanian ethnos thru wars, assimilation, natural disasters or just bad luck with making baby boys..
    (for example we can notice this thru ancient Dalmatian sample where its closest relatives are in Italy and then second row of relatives among Albanians, meaning he bottlenecked out completely of Dalmatia where he used to live in ancient time, closest brother clade found shelter in Italy, therefore surviving, and next wave of relatives found among Albanians, naturally, as they are whats left of once ancient Illyrians living in Dalmatia.)
    But we can notice this also thru modern living samples like E-v13>PH1204 bottlenecking out of Albanians thru assimilation.

    Also, we should differentiate proto-IE with Illyrians, as fully developed Illyrians had for sure Neolithic remains, Phoenician, Celtic, Mycenaean, Sardinian I2a, Italic, Paleolithic remains and others people they encountered and colived with.

    For example its known thru history that Celts were invading Macedonia and targeting Greece in 3 century BCE, also many of them settled in Illyrian territories and coolived with Illyrians. Also they were targeted by Illyrians when retreating from Macedonia.. Now where are Celtic haplogroups?

    Its not that Illyrians had only 3 haplogroups and its not that Albanians have only 3 haplogroups how some people are trying to represent.

    So, once again, about 60 - 70 % of modern Albanian lines are Paleo Balkan in origin, about 10 - 15 % are Slavic in origin, and the rest goes on various groups of people like from Paleolithic remains to modern day encounters.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Nik's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-10
    Posts
    438
    Points
    5,448
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,448, Level: 21
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 102
    Overall activity: 43.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Long story short, no matter the thousands of facts brought to prove the Illyrian origin, as long as there exist Thracian or Dacian or whatever else "hints", the unfriendly community will always prefer the Thracian/Dacian hypothesis while still acting open-minded and neutral by not completely refuting the Illyrian hypothesis in order to not lose face and credibility.

    So anything but Illyrian. They're loyal to their nation and their forefathers who tried so hard to make us late migrants.

    If they only visited Albania and paid close attention to phenotypes and then go to Wikipedia to see the faces of all the Roman Emperors of Illyrian or Thracian origin (including some real Romans) they'll understand the striking resemblance and continuation. Obviously this is not "scientific" evidence unlike dear Georgiev and his bs theories about the lack of maritime words despite the fact that his ancestors changed their language at least 4 times.

    @markod and @ygorcs, is it your Slavic heritage that makes you (perhaps even subconsciously) so dismissive of anything related to the Illyrians?

  25. #25
    Ned Stark the Boromir Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Fatherland's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-03-17
    Posts
    388
    Points
    634
    Level
    6
    Points: 634, Level: 6
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Long story short, no matter the thousands of facts brought to prove the Illyrian origin, as long as there exist Thracian or Dacian or whatever else "hints", the unfriendly community will always prefer the Thracian/Dacian hypothesis while still acting open-minded and neutral by not completely refuting the Illyrian hypothesis in order to not lose face and credibility.

    So anything but Illyrian. They're loyal to their nation and their forefathers who tried so hard to make us late migrants.

    If they only visited Albania and paid close attention to phenotypes and then go to Wikipedia to see the faces of all the Roman Emperors of Illyrian or Thracian origin (including some real Romans) they'll understand the striking resemblance and continuation. Obviously this is not "scientific" evidence unlike dear Georgiev and his bs theories about the lack of maritime words despite the fact that his ancestors changed their language at least 4 times.

    @markod and @ygorcs, is it your Slavic heritage that makes you (perhaps even subconsciously) so dismissive of anything related to the Illyrians?
    Marko is probably Croatian, he is just a South Slav coping with the fact that he's not of Illyrian descent.

    Funny thing is, the more we move towards the pure Gheg regions of the north and northwest, the less West Asian & East Med the Albanians there score, without any Slavic admix, but more of a North-Western shift instead.

    Most of the West Asian & East Med admix we get in the first place is mediated from the Ancient Greek direction. Makes sense, since Greeks score the highest West Asian & East Med of the entire Balkans.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •