halfalp
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Oh this paper. So is it confirmed that BB's had Horses and Mounted them?
Steppe DNA South of the Caucasus
- Thread starter Pip
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Oh this paper. So is it confirmed that BB's had Horses and Mounted them?
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What are your thoughts on the origin of Yamnaya wagons on the steppe ? For example 30
into video we can see common words. I noticed a key word missing from both this lecture and David Anthony's work, that is very interesting when compared to the elite warrior burials from Sintashta, Sredny Stog or Corded Ware -all predominant R1a gotra clans.What are your thoughts on the origin of Yamnaya wagons on the steppe ? For example 30
People focus upon wagon itself, but to me, the most important fact is yamna R1b accepted wagon-burial culture of steppe maykop Q as their elite culture, whereas caucasus elite buried bulls. So the yamna's religious culture, sunhead and animal culure, was same as american Indians.
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No that is not quite what I had in mind. Do you know the difference between Yamnaya wagons and wagon/chariots of the following cultures that had access to the right type of wood and tools.? For example compare the elite Q wagon, and Sumerian wagons, or wagons found in Poland where Corded Ware is found. Or the Sintashta Chariots
Or the The Bronocice pot, discovered in a village in Gmina Dzialoszyce, Swietokrzyskie Voivodeship, near Nidzica River, Poland, is a ceramic vase incised with the earliest known image of what may be a wheeled vehicle. It was dated by the radiocarbon methodto 3635–3370 BC,[1]
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The difference is in the use. A cattle herding gotra type steppe culture like Yamnaya R1b-Z2109+ with mobile mounted yurt wagons, constructed them to be sturdy well built; pulled by cattle and made with a basic shelter on top to give some relief say from a theoretical 4.2 kilo year sand storm event, or relief from sun on the steppe . While Sumerian and Sintashta carts are either built for speed, and or full visibility to hurl projectile type weapons for war.
Think of Yamna-Afansievo-Catacombe gotras R1b-Z2109+ deployed wagons constructed with a basic yurt like shelter on top[kind of like a mini steppe schooner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdbnriTpg_M]. Or like the Juggernaut festival in India except cattle[slow -steady] were used for pulling on the steppe, instead of horses[ Sintashta-speed].
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=chadi&direct=se&script=ia&link=yes&mode=3
http://spokensanskrit.org/index.php?tran_input=wagon&direct=es&script=hk&link=yes&mode=3
One of the Armenian samples is an unspecified R1b-P297 and the other two have Middle Eastern E1b lineages. Curiously, it is the R1b that has by far the least steppic profile; it would seem any common steppic autosomal inheritance they had would likely have come from an alternative yDNA source.
Because the Armenian MBA autosomal profiles are so diverse, I have tried running analysis on each cluster separately. This yields curious and striking results:
1. The more steppic samples best match prior local populations with the addition of a 23% mix of Srubnaya and Poltavka
2. The R1b less-steppic sample best matches prior local populations with the addition of 10% Latvian MNHG
The common factor between the new components is traces of Eastern Baltic. In the more steppic samples, its Srubnaya appears to comprise a significant component most closely related to Plinkaigalis (early Lithuanian Corded Ware), and the Armenian R1b sample looks to have a component most closely related to Latvian R1b-P297* (which is probably the source of its yDNA). For diverse contemporary new entrants like this, I don't think two elements from the same location 2,000 km away is a coincidence. It looks like different people moving down from the vicinity of the Eastern Baltic through the Steppe to the Caucasus at the same time, some of them picking up some Poltavkan-like Steppe DNA along the way, and some not.
These new entrants must have admixed with locals by the Armenian MBA, as their steppic DNA had been incorporated into Middle Eastern E1b paternal lineages there. In fact, even the steppic E1b samples also show a small best-fit trace of the Latvian MNHG present in the R1b sample.
The DNA arriving in Armenia 2,500-1900 BC has multiple hallmarks of Eastern Baltic. Related R1a-Z93 samples turning up in Poltavka and Sintashta 2,700-2,000 BC each have profiles originating to their West, with both having significant Balkanic or Carpathian traces. The Z2103 sample turning up at the Dnieper 2,800 BC has some Baltic and a substantial Globular Amphora-like element. R1a-Z93's recent relative Z283 (from which yfull estimates it split only 3,000 BC) is North Central European in its early distribution.
The people travelling through the Steppe 2,800-1,900 BC look to be clearly mainly eastward-moving. Those moving out of the other side to the South of the Caucasus appear to have substantial East Central European ancestry; and I suspect those moving into Northern India at around or soon after that time were similar.
The people travelling through the Steppe 2,800-1,900 BC look to be clearly mainly eastward-moving. Those moving out of the other side to the South of the Caucasus appear to have substantial East Central European ancestry; and I suspect those moving into Northern India at around or soon after that time were similar.
xiaodragon
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horses and tin ores are found together , this will lead to a powerful combination
Ygorcs
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It could've been a chain of events caused by the same climate worsening: North Europeans of CWC origin migrating southward to the Pontic-Caspian steppes, and simultaneously or just before that R1b Poltavka, Potapovka and Catacomb people migrating southward into the Balkans, Transcaucasia, Anatolia, and so on. That would fit well with the arrival of the Greeks some centuries later. In my analyses the Yamnaya-like ancestry in Greeks, Armenians, South Italians and others seems more of a Catacomb-like nature than CWC-like or BB-like.
In my analyses, the Yamnaya-like ancestry in Armenians is most like Srubnaya, and this in turn is most like a derivation from Lithuanian Plinkaigalis (which although identified as early CWC, is not at all typical of CWC genetically, looking much more like a Yamnayan offshoot). An optimal mix with Srubnaya explains 96.8% of LMBA Armenians, whereas Catacomb (presumably taken as I5884) only explains 92.9%.
The other section of Armenian MBA is not Yamnayan-like at all, but is explained best by an insertion of 10% Latvian MNHG.
This gives two markedly different lineages from the Eastern Baltic, both of which appear to pop up later in the same site 2,000 km away in Bronze Age Armenia. It seems likely to me that they were part of broadly the same migration. Autosomal mixes (with elements of Poltavka) suggest this migration route was down the Volga and through the Caspian Steppe, rather than the Pontic.
The migration route appears to be eastwards before southwards. This follows a general pattern across Eurasia of people moving eastwards (Beaker-likes into Germany, Sweden and Unetice; Globular Amphora and Trypillia into Ukraine; Sintashta into the Caspian Steppe; Z2103 into the Urals and Siberia) - i.e. into harsher climates, rather than away from them. My instinct tells me that, while climate change was almost certainly an indirect contributory factor, the direct cause was most likely conflict.
The earliest sign of contact between Upper Volgan R1a-Z93 and Lower Volgan R1b-Z2103 looks like the appearance of a pure Z93 outlier within Poltavka around 2,700 BC; but this does not optimally fit the Armenian insertion, which looks to have been later. This appears to have preceded brother populations in Srubnaya, however, as the Baltic aDNA in the earliest Armenian MBA sample was already heavily diluted by indigenous Armenian components by 1,800 BC. My suggestion is that the main move to Armenia probably occurred on the collapse of CWC around 2,350 BC. This also matches my yDNA calculations (based on STRs divergence) of an estimated coalescence zone for surviving Z93 at the Western Caspian around 2,400 BC.
This migration probably comprised a variety of paternal lineages, but it looks like R1a-Z93 was the one that ultimately thrived the most. (I do not see Volgan Z2103 as a particularly thriving lineage South of the Caucasus - its surviving Z2109 branches do not seem to have proliferated there, and my calculated estimate is that all of its several sibling branches split away from it to the South long beforehand, probably during the early Chalcolithic).
Ygorcs
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I'm talking of modern Armenians. I'm not sure we can assert that those MLBA Armenia samples were already Armenian in language. The language itself is only attested much later, and lots of things happened in the LBA and EIA. In linguistic terms, Armenian would make more sense fitting a common origin with the Greeks, whereas Srubnaya was more probably an early subset of Indo-Iranian.
Good points, indeed. However, the southward flow was certainly encouraged by the climate changes and the depopulation and large-scale emigration from the steppes. The same thing happened in ~1200-800 B.C. during the transition from the LBA pretty Sintashta-like peoples to the more mixed Scythian dominance, in which the steppe-like population retreated to the "borders" of the steppe and main river valleys, leaving vast lands uninhabited, before resettling the entire area when the climate improved.
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These are the best models I could find for the Armenian samples, using virtually all steppe-derived BA (from EBA to MLBA) samples in addition to several non-steppe samples of West Eurasia. IMO they at least make sense from the point of view of geography and linguistics. Of course that's a risky experiment, because some of these samples are so similar genetically that any relatively minor genetic drift or genetic structure in the original population can lead to wrong assignment of the ancestral admixture, but these models should be read as general guidelines to give us ideas, not as a literal truth.
By the way, Pip, what software and database do you use to make your calculations and hypothetical models of ancestry?
By the way, Pip, what software and database do you use to make your calculations and hypothetical models of ancestry?
| [1] "distance%=1.5584 / distance=0.015584" | [1] "distance%=1.8623 / distance=0.018623" | [1] "distance%=1.6767 / distance=0.016767" |
| ARM_MBA | ARM_LBA | ARM_Lchashen_MBA |
| | | |
| Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 49.65 | Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 27.55 | Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 38.30 |
| Yamnaya_Bulgaria 18.85 | Armenia_ChL 24.00 | Maykop 18.15 |
| Yamnaya_Caucasus 14.10 | Yamnaya_Karagash 13.25 | RUS_Potapovka_MLBA 10.55 |
| Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.90 | Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.65 | Levant_N 9.35 |
| Levant_N 3.65 | Hajji_Firuz_ChL 7.90 | Sarazm_Eneolithic 8.85 |
| Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 3.10 | Yamnaya_Caucasus 6.75 | Yamnaya_Ukraine 7.45 |
| Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 1.75 | Levant_N 5.65 | Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 7.35 |
| Catacomb 4.80 | ||
| Greece_N 1.45 |
Ah, I haven't looked beyond the MBA, and generally avoid questions of language.
Yes, I think this might have happened more often than people generally imagine.
Thanks, this is interesting. The programme that I use is my own.
Your combination has got pretty close, and you appear to access a bigger database than me. The Armenian samples I used were Nerquin Getashen and Katnaghbiur, processing the R1b outlier separately.
Your Steppic/European total contributions look very similar to mine. And if I substitute your Ukraine Yamnaya and Potapovka samples into my programme, the main cluster comes out at an explanation of 96.7% (almost identical to my own optimal combination of 96.8%). So, yes, the Armenian insertion is confirmed to look like a mixture of R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 populations. Presumably yours are based on the Yamnayan samples in far NW Ukraine, in which case it is a similar geographical mix to mine of Northern Steppe samples, split between the region close to Belarus and the middle Volga.
Your other optimal combination (including Bulgarian and Caucasus Yamnaya) comes out only slightly worse in my programme (96.2%), but it is interesting to note that this again has a heavy Central European (in this case, Bulgarian) component, indicating a population displaced back eastwards, initially into harsher climes, rather than southwards into a milder Greece or Western Anatolia.
Did you try with my best-fits of Srubnaya, Plinkaigalis, mainstream Poltavka and Alexandria? If so, it would be interesting to find out if this came out with worse fits for you?
I don't know if your analysis included the R1b outlier (RISE413), which to me looks wholly different - with a clear East Central European (mainly Eastern Baltic) addition seemingly unrelated to Yamnaya or the Caspian Steppe.
Based on the above, I think I would still say a migration from upstream Volga and down the Western Caspian, picking up DNA along the way, is the most likely explanation for the bulk of the initial insertion of steppic DNA into Armenia, at least in the samples I have examined; and the only significant traces of its yDNA that I see in modern South of Caucasus populations is R1a-Z93.
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I've carried out further analysis, and am now less confident still that a worsening climate episode is the single predominant cause of the arrival of Steppe DNA South of the Caucasus. The data suggests to me that there were at least several prehistoric ebbs and flows of different steppic populations across the Caucasus extending over millennia:
1. A Caucasian population with a partly steppic profile appears to have been displaced (probably north westwards along the Pontic coastline) by a mixture of Anatolians and other local populations (4,000 BC?).
2. Centuries later, a little DNA from this partly steppic population appears to have leaked back into the Caucasus.
3. Then there are traces of Eastern Baltic/West Russian populations moving into the Southern Caucasus, rather than into South Eastern Europe.
4. There are signs of some early Southern Steppe Yamnayan admixture into Iranian populations.
5. Then there are signs of population replacement (more than admixture) South of the Caucasus by most likely Northern Steppe populations (closest fit Eastern Baltic to the middle Volga) around the middle Bronze Age (latter half of the third millennium BC?), significantly increasing steppic DNA proportions.
6. There are then signs that this population was itself mostly replaced by related Eastern Volga populations (closest fit Potapovka and Sintashta) a few centuries later, probably coming in via the Eastern and Southern Caspian, rather than across the Caucasus itself (early or middle second millennium BC?).
Since then, all of these steppic DNA elements look to have been heavily diluted, at least in South Western Asia, although several steppic paternal lineages (mainly R1a-Z93) still appear to provide evidence of them.
1. A Caucasian population with a partly steppic profile appears to have been displaced (probably north westwards along the Pontic coastline) by a mixture of Anatolians and other local populations (4,000 BC?).
2. Centuries later, a little DNA from this partly steppic population appears to have leaked back into the Caucasus.
3. Then there are traces of Eastern Baltic/West Russian populations moving into the Southern Caucasus, rather than into South Eastern Europe.
4. There are signs of some early Southern Steppe Yamnayan admixture into Iranian populations.
5. Then there are signs of population replacement (more than admixture) South of the Caucasus by most likely Northern Steppe populations (closest fit Eastern Baltic to the middle Volga) around the middle Bronze Age (latter half of the third millennium BC?), significantly increasing steppic DNA proportions.
6. There are then signs that this population was itself mostly replaced by related Eastern Volga populations (closest fit Potapovka and Sintashta) a few centuries later, probably coming in via the Eastern and Southern Caspian, rather than across the Caucasus itself (early or middle second millennium BC?).
Since then, all of these steppic DNA elements look to have been heavily diluted, at least in South Western Asia, although several steppic paternal lineages (mainly R1a-Z93) still appear to provide evidence of them.
Which time period you are looking at? And which samples for Eastern Anatolia?
All I can think of is that mountainous areas are often refuges for marginalised or fleeing populations. Perhaps the South Caucasus steppic incursors could hide away in the Caucasus, but were unwelcome in Anatolia?
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