halfalp
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Oh this paper. So is it confirmed that BB's had Horses and Mounted them?
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I agree with you so far, but wait and see more result from west siberia, especially in east ural of which tombs have cattle and horse bones. If EHG group botai has M73, there was EHG M269 somewhere. And I think CHG gene reached to east europe thru the following route. After that the above-mentioned cold weather would make the route from south blocked, I think:
What are your thoughts on the origin of Yamnaya wagons on the steppe ? For example 30 into video we can see common words. I noticed a key word missing from both this lecture and David Anthony's work, that is very interesting when compared to the elite warrior burials from Sintashta, Sredny Stog or Corded Ware -all predominant R1a gotra clans.
People focus upon wagon itself, but to me, the most important fact is yamna R1b accepted wagon-burial culture of steppe maykop Q as their elite culture, whereas caucasus elite buried bulls. So the yamna's religious culture, sunhead and animal culure, was same as american Indians.
The difference is in the use. A cattle herding gotra type steppe culture like Yamnaya R1b-Z2109+ with mobile mounted yurt wagons, constructed them to be sturdy well built; pulled by cattle and made with a basic shelter on top to give some relief say from a theoretical 4.2 kilo year sand storm event, or relief from sun on the steppe . While Sumerian and Sintashta carts are either built for speed, and or full visibility to hurl projectile type weapons for war.^
I don' know. Tell me the difference or comparison.
One of the Armenian samples is an unspecified R1b-P297 and the other two have Middle Eastern E1b lineages. Curiously, it is the R1b that has by far the least steppic profile; it would seem any common steppic autosomal inheritance they had would likely have come from an alternative yDNA source.Are those samples R1b?
One of the Armenian samples is an unspecified R1b-P297 and the other two have Middle Eastern E1b lineages. Curiously, it is the R1b that has by far the least steppic profile; it would seem any common steppic autosomal inheritance they had would likely have come from an alternative yDNA source.
Because the Armenian MBA autosomal profiles are so diverse, I have tried running analysis on each cluster separately. This yields curious and striking results:This sounds like R1b-V1636.
it was more the 4.2 ka climate cold that erased R1b from the steppe
somehow a small group of Sintashta succeeded to conquer just a few strategic places where there was winter food available for the animals and tin ores nearby
You mean that colder climate made the local demography decrease over the years? And why would a more northern than Steppe people associated with R1a not be more touched by this demographic decrease than their southern R1b counterpart?
In my analyses the Yamnaya-like ancestry in Greeks, Armenians, South Italians and others seems more of a Catacomb-like nature than CWC-like or BB-like.
It could've been a chain of events caused by the same climate worsening; North Europeans of CWC origin migrating southward to the Pontic-Caspian steppes, and simultaneously or just before that R1b Poltavka, Potapovka and Catacomb people migrating southward into the Balkans, Transcaucasia, Anatolia, and so on.
In my analyses, the Yamnaya-like ancestry in Armenians is most like Srubnaya, and this in turn is most like a derivation from Lithuanian Plinkaigalis (which although identified as early CWC, is not at all typical of CWC genetically, looking much more like a Yamnayan offshoot). An optimal mix with Srubnaya explains 96.8% of LMBA Armenians, whereas Catacomb (presumably taken as I5884) only explains 92.9%.
The migration route appears to be eastwards before southwards. This follows a general pattern across Eurasia of people moving eastwards (Beaker-likes into Germany, Sweden and Unetice; Globular Amphora and Trypillia into Ukraine; Sintashta into the Caspian Steppe; Z2103 into the Urals and Siberia) - i.e. into harsher climates, rather than away from them. My instinct tells me that, while climate change was almost certainly an indirect contributory factor, the direct cause was most likely conflict.
[1] "distance%=1.5584 / distance=0.015584" | [1] "distance%=1.8623 / distance=0.018623" | [1] "distance%=1.6767 / distance=0.016767" |
ARM_MBA | ARM_LBA | ARM_Lchashen_MBA |
| | |
Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 49.65 | Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 27.55 | Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 38.30 |
Yamnaya_Bulgaria 18.85 | Armenia_ChL 24.00 | Maykop 18.15 |
Yamnaya_Caucasus 14.10 | Yamnaya_Karagash 13.25 | RUS_Potapovka_MLBA 10.55 |
Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.90 | Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.65 | Levant_N 9.35 |
Levant_N 3.65 | Hajji_Firuz_ChL 7.90 | Sarazm_Eneolithic 8.85 |
Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 3.10 | Yamnaya_Caucasus 6.75 | Yamnaya_Ukraine 7.45 |
Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 1.75 | Levant_N 5.65 | Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 7.35 |
Catacomb 4.80 | ||
Greece_N 1.45 |
Ah, I haven't looked beyond the MBA, and generally avoid questions of language.I'm talking of modern Armenians. I'm not sure we can assert that those MLBA Armenia samples were already Armenian in language. The language itself is only attested much later, and lots of things happened in the LBA and EIA. In linguistic terms, Armenian would make more sense fitting a common origin with the Greeks, whereas Srubnaya was more probably an early subset of Indo-Iranian.
Yes, I think this might have happened more often than people generally imagine.Good points, indeed. However, the southward flow was certainly encouraged by the climate changes and the depopulation and large-scale emigration from the steppes. The same thing happened in ~1200-800 B.C. during the transition from the LBA pretty Sintashta-like peoples to the more mixed Scythian dominance, in which the steppe-like population retreated to the "borders" of the steppe and main river valleys, leaving vast lands uninhabited, before resettling the entire area when the climate improved.
Thanks, this is interesting. The programme that I use is my own.These are the best models I could find for the Armenian samples, using virtually all steppe-derived BA (from EBA to MLBA) samples in addition to several non-steppe samples of West Eurasia. IMO they at least make sense from the point of view of geography and linguistics. Of course that's a risky experiment, because some of these samples are so similar genetically that any relatively minor genetic drift or genetic structure in the original population can lead to wrong assignment of the ancestral admixture, but these models should be read as general guidelines to give us ideas, not as a literal truth.
By the way, Pip, what software and database do you use to make your calculations and hypothetical models of ancestry?
[1] "distance%=1.5584 / distance=0.015584"
[1] "distance%=1.8623 / distance=0.018623"
[1] "distance%=1.6767 / distance=0.016767"
ARM_MBA
ARM_LBA ARM_Lchashen_MBA
Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 49.65
Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 27.55 Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 38.30 Yamnaya_Bulgaria 18.85 Armenia_ChL 24.00 Maykop 18.15 Yamnaya_Caucasus 14.10 Yamnaya_Karagash 13.25 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA 10.55 Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.90
Seh_Gabi_ChL 8.65 Levant_N 9.35 Levant_N 3.65
Hajji_Firuz_ChL 7.90 Sarazm_Eneolithic 8.85 Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 3.10
Yamnaya_Caucasus 6.75 Yamnaya_Ukraine 7.45 Maykop_Novosvobodnaya 1.75 Levant_N 5.65 Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren 7.35
Catacomb 4.80
Greece_N 1.45
Which time period you are looking at? And which samples for Eastern Anatolia?How is it there decent steppe ancestry in South Caucasus but nothing in Eastern Anatolia?
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