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Thread: Steppe DNA South of the Caucasus

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    Steppe DNA South of the Caucasus

    My analysis suggests there was an insertion of steppic DNA South of the Caucasus by the middle Bronze Age, with a profile best matching a 50:50 mix of Srubnaya:Poltavka; and that Srubnaya has a profile in turn best matching a mix of Chalcolithic NE Ukraine and early Lithuanian Corded Ware.

    Could this be a sign of R1a-Z93 lineages mopping up principally R1b communities (i) around Belarus early 3rd millennium BC, and then (ii) Central Steppe mid 3rd millennium, and then (iii) Caucasus late 3rd millennium? This is the route that I would propose for the main Middle Eastern subclades of R1a. Is there any DNA data that would refine this proposal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    My analysis suggests there was an insertion of steppic DNA South of the Caucasus by the middle Bronze Age, with a profile best matching a 50:50 mix of Srubnaya:Poltavka; and that Srubnaya has a profile in turn best matching a mix of Chalcolithic NE Ukraine and early Lithuanian Corded Ware.

    Could this be a sign of R1a-Z93 lineages mopping up principally R1b communities (i) around Belarus early 3rd millennium BC, and then (ii) Central Steppe mid 3rd millennium, and then (iii) Caucasus late 3rd millennium? This is the route that I would propose for the main Middle Eastern subclades of R1a. Is there any DNA data that would refine this proposal?
    Two questions:

    1. So, did z93 originate in CWC where few horse bones were found?
    2. Then who were mopping up the z93 people in east europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Two questions:
    1. So, did z93 originate in CWC where few horse bones were found?
    2. Then who were mopping up the z93 people in east europe?
    I wonder whether these are trick questions.

    Based on current genetic data, I think Z93 most likely formed somewhere over the area between the Eastern Baltic states, Belarus and Northern Ukraine. Whether this was within CWC, it's hard to say - (i) it might have preceded CWC, (ii) its bearers might have adopted some aspects of CWC rather than being fully stereotypically CWC, (iii) some might have existed within CWC and some not.

    Whether there were lots of horses around where Z93 was formed, it's also hard to say - I suppose this depends on (i) where it arose (horses were more useful in some areas than others) and (ii) on the mix of ethnicities in the communities where it arose. (Z93 samples look to me to have more mixed ethnicity than other Z645, including with Yamnayan-descendant communities in the Eastern Baltic and the Caspian Steppe).

    Who was mopping up the Z93 communities in Eastern Europe? I don't know; I haven't found any obvious candidates. Perhaps these communities were predominantly swept away (or blew themselves away), rather than being mopped up?

    I see R1a-M417 as winning the battle for paternal lineage predominance in the Baltic states and Belarus, with Z283 largely initially staying put and its brother Z93 moving East and then South. Have you come across any genetic data suggesting any refinements to this assessment, or any different conclusions?

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    Well the thing is that R1a did not completely erase R1b from the Steppe, because Scythians have still strong % of Z2103. Most of modern R1a in eastern europe probably came with a Slavic expansion in the Middle-Age. I guess Z283 was centered around the Baltic with Upper Dnieper as Southern stronghold, while Z93 expanded on its own eastward encompassing sometimes previous Z2103 societies. Poltavka was mainly Z2103 and Sintashta have the tendency to pop a lot in everything " Steppe " related, so i'm not sure of its relationship in all this. I think Catacomb is a better proxy for an early Late Chalcolithic - Bronze Age Steppe migration towards South.

    But what prehistoric samples from South Caucasus did you use?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Would you mind showing us some of the secific results of your models of genetic ancestry, including the genetic distances and the like? That would be helpful for us to comment about what you found and to offer our own views on the matter, including possible explanations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Two questions:

    1. So, did z93 originate in CWC where few horse bones were found?
    I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. That Z93 Sintashta and Andronovo pastoralists with a strong horse culture couldn't have come from a CWC Z93-bearing population with a much less prominent horsemanship? Well, anyone who knows how incredibly fast Native American steppe tribes of the USA became extremely skilled horse riders and even mounted warriors, less than 200-250 years after they had their first encounters with the horse (unlike the CWC, who certainly knew the domesticated horse), should not doubt that, well, people can change their economy, way of life and culture pretty fast when they feel they need and should take the opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well the thing is that R1a did not completely erase R1b from the Steppe, because Scythians have still strong % of Z2103. Most of modern R1a in eastern europe probably came with a Slavic expansion in the Middle-Age. I guess Z283 was centered around the Baltic with Upper Dnieper as Southern stronghold, while Z93 expanded on its own eastward encompassing sometimes previous Z2103 societies. Poltavka was mainly Z2103 and Sintashta have the tendency to pop a lot in everything " Steppe " related, so i'm not sure of its relationship in all this. I think Catacomb is a better proxy for an early Late Chalcolithic - Bronze Age Steppe migration towards South.

    But what prehistoric samples from South Caucasus did you use?
    it was more the 4.2 ka climate cold that erased R1b from the steppe
    somehow a small group of Sintashta succeeded to conquer just a few strategic places where there was winter food available for the animals and tin ores nearby

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well the thing is that R1a did not completely erase R1b from the Steppe, because Scythians have still strong % of Z2103.
    Yes, I agree - I'm just looking at the part that went South of the Caucasus by the Middle Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think Catacomb is a better proxy for an early Late Chalcolithic - Bronze Age Steppe migration towards South.
    Yes, I've checked this, and a combination of Catacomb and Srubnaya seems to fit equally well.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But what prehistoric samples from South Caucasus did you use?
    Just Armenian middle Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Would you mind showing us some of the secific results of your models of genetic ancestry, including the genetic distances and the like? That would be helpful for us to comment about what you found and to offer our own views on the matter, including possible explanations.
    The best fit I found for new steppic DNA within middle Bronze Age Armenian samples was 10% Srubnaya and 11% mainstream Poltavka, although (as suggested by halfalp) a small element of Catacomb in place of Srubnaya works equally well. The degree of match was 97.83%. Given the yDNA phylogenic spread and distances South of the Caucasus, I would suggest the dominant paternal lineages for new entrants at that time were most likely Srubnayan R1a, rather than Poltvkan R1b.

    In turn, the best match I found for Srubnaya was a combination of Alexandria (NE Ukraine) with mainly Plinkaigalis (an early Eastern Baltic Corded Ware sample, which looks R1b Yamnayan-descendant) - 97.97% match.

    Accordingly, I see R1a people from the North and West (Baltic/Belarus) as best candidates for ancestors of the steppic paternal lineages that ended up spreading South of the Caucasus (and then presumably into the Middle East) by the middle Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it was more the 4.2 ka climate cold that erased R1b from the steppe
    somehow a small group of Sintashta succeeded to conquer just a few strategic places where there was winter food available for the animals and tin ores nearby
    You mean that colder climate made the local demography decrease over the years? And why would a more northern than Steppe people associated with R1a not be more touched by this demographic decrease than their southern R1b counterpart?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, I agree - I'm just looking at the part that went South of the Caucasus by the Middle Bronze Age.


    Yes, I've checked this, and a combination of Catacomb and Srubnaya seems to fit equally well.


    Just Armenian middle Bronze Age.
    Is this the sample linked with Trialeti Culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Is this the sample linked with Trialeti Culture?
    Yes, four samples, at least one of which is associated with Trialeti. None of the three male samples are R1a, but they look R1a-influenced autosomally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You mean that colder climate made the local demography decrease over the years? And why would a more northern than Steppe people associated with R1a not be more touched by this demographic decrease than their southern R1b counterpart?
    they were better equiped and organized, but when they hit the scene, many parts of the Pontic-Caspian steppes were already empty
    e.g. their descendants, the Srubnaya didn't occupy the whole Pontic steppe, only the northern rims and a few places rich in ores

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    they were better equiped and organized, but when they hit the scene, many parts of the Pontic-Caspian steppes were already empty
    e.g. their descendants, the Srubnaya didn't occupy the whole Pontic steppe, only the northern rims and a few places rich in ores
    This one is also a mystery which has small amounts of east asian admixture, anthropologically being very close to afanasievo.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it was more the 4.2 ka climate cold that erased R1b from the steppe
    somehow a small group of Sintashta succeeded to conquer just a few strategic places where there was winter food available for the animals and tin ores nearby
    Cold weather and then arctic horse people entered sintashta with south caucasus culture. According to brand new horse paper, bellbeaker horse had sintashta-steppe horse also.

    The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2B). The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, four samples, at least one of which is associated with Trialeti. None of the three male samples are R1a, but they look R1a-influenced autosomally.
    Are those samples R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Cold weather and then arctic horse people entered sintashta with south caucasus culture. According to brand new horse paper, bellbeaker horse had sintashta-steppe horse also.


    Can you put a link of thise horse paper please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Cold weather and then arctic horse people entered sintashta with south caucasus culture. According to brand new horse paper, bellbeaker horse had sintashta-steppe horse also.
    Yamnaya-Afansievo-Poltavka-Catacombe cattle herders on the steppe and Bell Beaker R1b-Z2108/2109 -Sintashta R1b-Z2108/2109 belong to the same gotra[Z2108+Z2109= steppe migrating ydna-clans cattle herding/gotra clans]The geographic distribution is unlike other ydna gotra clans,because they did not live in settlements, they only left kurgans[pit graves of their migrations]behind.[ gotra (Sanskrit: गोत्र)]

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Can you put a link of thise horse paper please.
    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(19)30384-8

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    The sampling strategy in this paper was a let down. No horses from Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, etc. So it says nothing about the homeland of the modern domesticated horse lineage aka the Indo-European horse.


    But there were some interesting things in this paper. It looks like Bell Beaker horses were mostly derived from Sintashta-related steppe horses, but at least some also had Iberian ancestry. And these horses with Iberian ancestry were later totally replaced in Europe.


    La Tene (Celtic), Gallo-Roman, Pictish, and Viking horses are all Sintashta-related horses with no Iberian ancestry! Here's a schematic with a few words on the topic...



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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yamnaya-Afansievo-Poltavka-Catacombe cattle herders on the steppe and Bell Beaker R1b-Z2108/2109 -Sintashta R1b-Z2108/2109 belong to the same gotra[Z2108+Z2109= steppe migrating ydna-clans cattle herding/gotra clans]The geographic distribution is unlike other ydna gotra clans,because they did not live in settlements, they only left kurgans[pit graves of their migrations]behind.[ gotra (Sanskrit: गोत्र)]
    I agree with you so far, but wait and see more result from west siberia, especially in east ural of which tombs have cattle and horse bones. If EHG group botai has M73, there was EHG M269 somewhere. And I think CHG gene reached to east europe thru the following route. After that the above-mentioned cold weather would make the route from south blocked, I think:

    The contact between the southern Urals and the southern Caspian basin can clearly traced not only in the mesolithic, but also during the neolithic an eneolithic
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=c_4...ottery&f=false

    Actually nobody don't know where bellbeaker originated in. Their skull type never existed in Europe before, now we know that they have arctic horse like sintashta and east scythian.
    Moreover there is a high possibility of seima turbino to have z93 to connect to z93 & m73 south india. Without snake concept, I think we cannot explain hindu culture.:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph (post 2)

    antennae sword,1500–500 b.c. copper hoard india



    seima turbino two snake head sword. this two snake concept is extremely important, maybe connecting twin concept also:





    sarmatian sword:





    ==> Seima turbino people seems to be pyramid builder like mesoamerica people, which can solve the questions of why hindu pyramid and chinese pyramid have same type of mesoamerican pyramids:


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-down-pyramids (post 6)

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    Oh this paper. So is it confirmed that BB's had Horses and Mounted them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I agree with you so far, but wait and see more result from west siberia, especially in east ural of which tombs have cattle and horse bones. If EHG group botai has M73, there was EHG M269 somewhere. And I think CHG gene reached to east europe thru the following route. After that the above-mentioned cold weather would make the route from south blocked, I think:
    What are your thoughts on the origin of Yamnaya wagons on the steppe ? For example 30:@ into video we can see common words. I noticed a key word missing from both this lecture and David Anthony's work, that is very interesting when compared to the elite warrior burials from Sintashta, Sredny Stog or Corded Ware -all predominant R1a gotra clans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    What are your thoughts on the origin of Yamnaya wagons on the steppe ? For example 30:@ into video we can see common words. I noticed a key word missing from both this lecture and David Anthony's work, that is very interesting when compared to the elite warrior burials from Sintashta, Sredny Stog or Corded Ware -all predominant R1a gotra clans.
    People focus upon wagon itself, but to me, the most important fact is yamna R1b accepted wagon-burial culture of steppe maykop Q as their elite culture, whereas caucasus elite buried bulls. So the yamna's religious culture, sunhead and animal culure, was same as american Indians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    People focus upon wagon itself, but to me, the most important fact is yamna R1b accepted wagon-burial culture of steppe maykop Q as their elite culture, whereas caucasus elite buried bulls. So the yamna's religious culture, sunhead and animal culure, was same as american Indians.
    No that is not quite what I had in mind. Do you know the difference between Yamnaya wagons and wagon/chariots of the following cultures that had access to the right type of wood and tools.? For example compare the elite Q wagon, and Sumerian wagons, or wagons found in Poland where Corded Ware is found. Or the Sintashta Chariots

    Or the The Bronocice pot, discovered in a village in Gmina Dzialoszyce, Swietokrzyskie Voivodeship, near Nidzica River, Poland, is a ceramic vase incised with the earliest known image of what may be a wheeled vehicle. It was dated by the radiocarbon methodto 3635–3370 BC,[1]




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    ^
    I don' know. Tell me the difference or comparison.

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