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Thread: Swedish Egalitarianism is a relatively new phenomenon?

  1. #26
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The egalitarian tendency has certainly older roots. Free yeoman farmers was certainly a thing. The reformation another, not only in Sweden but also elsewhere. It broke down the roman-catholic hierarchy, the strongest were pietist movement 'nothing between god and the individual'. This enhanced also things like individual responsibility, the need to be literate etc. I guess that's the reason the popular movements could be successful because the road was already paved.....,
    If you're partly referring to Max Weber, I'm not a fan, and I think a lot of recent research falsifies some of his claims, but that's a discussion for another time.

    Ever gotten into all the research into bipartite manorialism? Not that I buy all of it. My training and natural inclination is to always be skeptical of any "isms". :)

    See:
    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/tag/b...e-manorialism/


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    I'm more into Mary Douglas:

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    Angel. I am actually from Denmark, I dont know how I can prove it unless you call me. I saw your hint about Fargo, a film I have seen, but dont remember much off. Except for the snow. Ill revisit it, if they have it on netflix. And yes Im aware of the immigrants. My grandfather went to the Midwest, but came back, which is why Im here, but I still like to bake with Minnesota flour. Others didnt come back, and I have relatives in the US (and australia, and New Zealand).

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jensen View Post
    Angel. I am actually from Denmark, I dont know how I can prove it unless you call me. I saw your hint about Fargo, a film I have seen, but dont remember much off. Except for the snow. Ill revisit it, if they have it on netflix. And yes Im aware of the immigrants. My grandfather went to the Midwest, but came back, which is why Im here, but I still like to bake with Minnesota flour. Others didnt come back, and I have relatives in the US (and australia, and New Zealand).
    As I explained in my PM, Jensen, I didn't mean to question your identity or insult you in any way. Indeed, I was trying "not" to insult you. :)

    Your English is very good, and if you were a Scandinavian-American, I didn't want to seem to be patronizing you or talking down to you about things you'd be much more informed about than I am.

    I don't know if you've seen this article. It's about Socialism in Minnesota. Half of the counties which voted for Eugene Debs were in Minnesota. I find it very interesting.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social...y_of_Minnesota

    Many of the Italian immigrants were also Socialists. The trial of Sacco and Vanzetti (anarchists, not socialists) was absolutely huge news in its time. For many reasons, Italian-Americans split, with some becoming more left leaning and others more right leaning. That left leaning, socialist, communist, and anarchist strain was and to some extent continues to be an important part of the politics of the area of Italy from which I come.

    Your history and mine have a point in common. My father's parents came to the U.S. in the second decade of the twentieth century, went to Pennsylvania to start a logging company (they were mountain people), returned to Italy where my father was born, and then decades later my father brought us here. It gives one a rather different perspective.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jensen View Post
    Reasons you should consider instead of noses and facial hair would be:

    Sweden has
    A high degree of education and literacy in the population from 1800 and up.
    A very high degree of religious (Luteran) internalisation in culture and moral.
    A strong socialist movement around 1900 and up.
    An effective rule of law.
    A short distance from the citizen to the government
    I'll add,
    - One of the strongest capitalistic economic systems in Europe (it's not just ABBA powering their economy, Eriksen, et al)
    - One of the strongest, independent militaries in the world (love the Griffon, Viggen, & Draken aircraft!)

    The Swedes are independent, free-thinkers. I don't agree with all their policies, but it's not my country. Their defense policy proves they have not become "feminized" in any sense.

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    I never claimed it was their noses that were directly responsible for anything, that would be ridiculous of course. However, where some of you are overly skeptical about anything somewhat outlandish I tend to trust common instinct a bit more and I have research to back me up (sort of). For monkeys, nose length tracks with social dominance but the study I'm referring to is this:

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...70491401200101

    We found facial features that predicted [social] dominance but not strength... Nose length (N3) predicted dominance significantly (positively), β = 0.26, p = .05 but not strength, β = 0.11, p = .484.

    At the very least, it shows that there is general agreement about social dominance based on appearance, so what I'm saying is in-line with what we are programmed to recognise from people's faces. There hasn't been a study yet to confirm whether there is truth to judging people's faces but again that's mainly because of the OBVIOUS political sensitivities there.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...eliefs-IQ.html

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    The Swedes being independent thinkers is laughable by the way, they ARE very individualist in that they are not reliant on the group but at the same time these individuals conform to groupthink. It's somewhat paradoxical but it's part of the so-called Janteloven (most Scandinavians will agree that these laws are correct by the way):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

    To me, the biggest freethinkers in Europe are those around the Alpine area, but that's an aside

  8. #33
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    The adventurous tough genes has left sweden a long time ago.
    Just like how the explorers left the netherlands.

    All went to the new world.

  9. #34
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    I just returned from a vacation in Sweden. I haven't particular noticed men as feminine, just polite and well educated (Is that a feminine thing?). They are very helpful, when you ask for directions they go out of their way, it wasn't just one experience, but many and they are happy to do so. Much quicker then checking things out on the net, locator and so on. They do not want your paper money, its just credit cards, even to use lavatories. Stockholm is a particular city spread on many Islands connected with bridges, so much to see with great museums. A little pricey but well worth a visit.

  10. #35
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I suppose I have a relatively narrow viewpoint, as a tourist, where I noticed the same things as Maleth, above, and the other as a aviator in the US Navy. The Swedes are, from my long familiarity with their Air Force, militarily very good, if not outstanding; there is no lack of "male" virtue in that arena. Their aircraft are world-class and their training is superb.

    Just because they have a paternalistic social system does not mean they have become "feminine."

    The Swedish system is not one I'd want to replicate in America, but it works for them and I congratulate them.

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    Swedish neutrality, sitting out every war since 1814, probably has something to do with it. Not wasting the national treasure on useless wars meant all the more to share.

    Also, 70% of Swedish workers belong to labor unions, compared to 10.5% in the United States. That helps ensure that rewards get distributed downwards rather than just sucked up.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Spaniards are among the peoples with most progressive ("politically correct" for some) views in Europe - and yet they are not the lightest skinned
    Well. Spain has a very progressive government (by now).
    And has been a pioneer with Gay Marriage and Gender Violence Law.
    But you should see Vox, the Spanish far right party. It's for sure the most anti-feminist and anti-LGBTQ+ party in the West.

  13. #38
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    Well. Spain has a very progressive government (by now).
    No offence! But in my opinion, liberal progressive governments don't have the best interest of their population in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    No offence! But in my opinion, liberal progressive governments don't have the best interest of their population in mind.
    In my opinion. I think that very conservative governments care the less about almost everything important. But they're really agressive against other issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    In my opinion. I think that very conservative governments care the less about almost everything important. But they're really agressive against other issues.
    What is important? Many people that vote for liberal progressive politicians are short-sighted, and don't see what is really important and matters in the long run, or what is at stake. Again, this is only my personal opinion. Plus, concerning being aggressive, liberal progressives are pretty much aggressive when it comes to push their agenda everywhere. These leftists make life more and more complicated, and they take more liberties from the people each time in the pretence for the greater good. That said, don't get me wrong there are many things that I don't like on conservative politicians too, especially when it comes to animal rights, environment or nature protection, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    What is important? Many people that vote for liberal progressive politicians are short-sighted, and don't see what is really important and matters in the long run, or what is at stake. Again, this is only my personal opinion. Plus, concerning being aggressive, liberal progressives are pretty much aggressive when it comes to push their agenda everywhere. These leftists make life more and more complicated, and they take more liberties from the people each time in the pretence for the greater good. That said, don't get me wrong there are many things that I don't like on conservative politicians too, especially when it comes to animal rights, environment or nature protection, etc.
    what is important and matters in the long run?

    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    That said, don't get me wrong there are many things that I don't like on conservative politicians too, especially when it comes to animal rights, environment or nature protection, etc.
    not very shortsighted things imo. those would be things that are important for me or that would matter in the long run so i am more often than not, not voting for conservatives.

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