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Thread: T1a1a*

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    T1a1a*

    Great site!

    T1a-M70 is said to have entered Africa via the Nile. How did it spread in the Horn? Where is T1a1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    Great site!

    T1a-M70 is said to have entered Africa via the Nile. How did it spread in the Horn? Where is T1a1a?
    There is a academia paper by Angela Smith, which states T1a1a-Pages0011 with R1b-V88 arrived in the levant ( from the north ) circa 9000BC and then moved into coastal Egypt ( lower nile )................T1a1 did not reach the horn of Africa until the iron-age

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    There is a academia paper by Angela Smith, which states T1a1a-Pages0011 with R1b-V88 arrived in the levant ( from the north ) circa 9000BC and then moved into coastal Egypt ( lower nile )................T1a1 did not reach the horn of Africa until the iron-age
    It took 8 millennia to reach the Horn? Thanks for the paper, torzio! Is there a link?? Looked around & did not see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    It took 8 millennia to reach the Horn? Thanks for the paper, torzio! Is there a link?? Looked around & did not see it.
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/mig...istinct-y-dna/

    of the T haplogroup in this paper 90% had blue eyes and origins are on the black sea eastern side..............further info is that the remainder/living departed along the southern anatolian

    I will look for other paper..............I already attached it in the past, but lost link when I reinstalled windows 10
    It is to do with T1a1-Pages0021

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    I don't remember where, but I read that y T entered the Horn of Africa twice.

    From West-Asians during the Neolithic, and in the last millennium until about 300 years ago with the Arab slave traders.

    I think the clades were also different.

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    Official paper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of the T haplogroup in this paper 90% had blue eyes and origins are on the black sea eastern side..............further info is that the remainder/living departed along the southern anatolian

    I will look for other paper..............I already attached it in the past, but lost link when I reinstalled windows 10
    It is to do with T1a1-Pages0021
    Do you remember the subject header? I'll look for it.

    T came off the Pamir before heading off in three basic directions.

    The largest is the T1a (so far). Those would be the NE African ones. The Ts that went into Melanesia would explain why so many have dark skin, but blue eyes & sometimes blond hair. Whoever they may have interbred with would have modified that original template.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    Official paper?
    I’m not posting it, search for: arab slave traders.

    but I’ll post this:

    Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa

    Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few thousand years.
    However, mitochondrial and Y chromosome data are suggestive of earlier episodes of admixture ...

    ... T-M70 sub-haplogroup was present in northeast Africa by at least 14 ka, possibly arriving in the Horn of Africa as early as 5 ka ....

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art.../#!po=0.189394

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    Do you remember the subject header? I'll look for it.

    T came off the Pamir before heading off in three basic directions.

    The largest is the T1a (so far). Those would be the NE African ones. The Ts that went into Melanesia would explain why so many have dark skin, but blue eyes & sometimes blond hair. Whoever they may have interbred with would have modified that original template.
    its in earlier posts in eupedia

    It was an academia paper based on cruciani's and others works..........https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2009231

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    its in earlier posts in eupedia

    It was an academia paper based on cruciani's and others works..........
    Just discovered this site, actually. Thanks for this R paper! The greening of the Sahara is part of the puzzle we seem to be missing. T looks widespread, but may be missing all the people that most likely lived in this area before desertification. It might actually stretch from the North Africa/Sahel region to the Himalayas.

    Ancient humans were working with narrow corridors during certain climate ages. Given that T is 40-47K YBP... and that it is downstream from LT and also F... perhaps their movements happened many times over; going into whatever land had the most hospitable climate for human habitation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    Just discovered this site, actually. Thanks for this R paper! The greening of the Sahara is part of the puzzle we seem to be missing. T looks widespread, but may be missing all the people that most likely lived in this area before desertification. It might actually stretch from the North Africa/Sahel region to the Himalayas.

    Ancient humans were working with narrow corridors during certain climate ages. Given that T is 40-47K YBP... and that it is downstream from LT and also F... perhaps their movements happened many times over; going into whatever land had the most hospitable climate for human habitation.
    With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.

    There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.

    There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years
    That "Game of Thrones" looking person from Bulgaria comes to mind. Was he not basal T*? He was called the first (known) "king" because his genetic profile puts him at the dawn of the Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    That "Game of Thrones" looking person from Bulgaria comes to mind. Was he not basal T*? He was called the first (known) "king" because his genetic profile puts him at the dawn of the Neolithic.
    Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
    There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.

    There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years
    y-P formed in Siberia? Last I remember, some said it mutated in the northern Philippine Islands.

    Basal T in Kazaks? Or, downstream?

    I am interested MOST, right now, in the mountainous DNA from the Himalayas (and that T-M184 paper re: Bhutan), Hindu Kush, Tian Shan, Kunlun, Karakoram, Suleman & Hindu Raj. This "Central Asian" mountain range is where basal T is said to have begun; radiating (pretty much) to the southeast and west.

    Know any??

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
    There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC
    In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8.

    I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).

    If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8.

    I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).

    If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.
    T entered africa , firstly in coastal egypt circa 9000BC .......................IIRC it did not reach the horn of Africa until the late bronze-age IIRC.............there is an old DNA study on this

    Lemba jews reached yemen circa 2500BC from northern Levant, they came without women, crossed into africa and migrated to south africa where they married southern african women

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    T entered africa , firstly in coastal egypt circa 9000BC .......................IIRC it did not reach the horn of Africa until the late bronze-age IIRC.............there is an old DNA study on this

    Lemba jews reached yemen circa 2500BC from northern Levant, they came without women, crossed into africa and migrated to south africa where they married southern african women
    AI put that M70 at 13,000 BCE & had at least one pit stop (for L-208) in the Greek island of Crete (by 10,000 BCE) & then back to the North African mainland.

    The Lemba story was, indeed, interesting. Anything beyond 1,500 BCE is paganism, so they must have progressed (with their cult) at some point after that.

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    "Semitic" comes after "Cushitic". There are Ashkenazi Jews downstream from HOA Ts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8.

    I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).

    If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.
    Last edited by Andalusian Fusion; 20-06-19 at 01:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
    There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC
    If T-L162 arrived in Crete from Egypt circa 10,100 BCE, is the Malek specimen one of the northern Ts (given its proximity to the Grecian islands)? L162 is one mutation downstream from M70 (Sinai, Egypt).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    AI put that M70 at 13,000 BCE & had at least one pit stop (for L-208) in the Greek island of Crete (by 10,000 BCE) & then back to the North African mainland.

    The Lemba story was, indeed, interesting. Anything beyond 1,500 BCE is paganism, so they must have progressed (with their cult) at some point after that.
    Did not judesism begin 4000bc or am i wrong
    Maybe it was 4000 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
    There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC
    ID Y-DNA Population Language Culture Date(ybp) Location Members/SS Percentage mtDNA Autosomal SNPs Ancestral Components Sample Source Notes
    I0795 - KAR6a - Feature 170 T1a-M70 Early European Neolithic Paleo-European Linearbandkeramik 7200 Karsdorf 1/1 100% H1* 47804 Western European Hunter-Gatherer and Basal Eurasian Tooth [187] Goseck circle

    Perhaps... he went NORTH into Europe from the Sinai at a later date? After T1a-M70 (13,800 B.C.E.), my L-208 lineage goes to Crete in 10,100 B.C.E., only to return to the North African coast (Egypt) by around 6,700 B.C.E.


    Their arrival circa 6,700 B.C.E. places them into a Cushitic-speaking world. Semitic languages would not diverge from Cushitic until around 3,700 years later; all of these, rooted in hieroglyphics (Kmt) & then the Phoenicians who gave us the alphabet by the 2nd Millennium.

    "Northern Afro-Asiatic" language would not exist until at least 1,200 years after their return to North Africa from Crete & they align more or less with the emergence of Cushitic in the Afro-Asiatic heartland (in the SOUTH). If they spoke a Cushitic-type language, they would have left this mark upon Egypt as they made their way up the Nile to the HOA, ultimately leaving their cultural imprint there as they pushed the Khoisan further south.
    Last edited by Andalusian Fusion; 20-06-19 at 02:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Did not judesism begin 4000bc or am i wrong
    Maybe it was 4000 years ago
    "Judaism" would have begun circa 1,900 B.C.E. with "Abraham". As a NATION of 600,000 men, the Israelites (not necessarily 'Jews' yet) would have had their origins when "Jacob" & his issue (12 children & 70 grandkids) spent over 2 centuries in Egypt as enslaved ISRAELITES.

    As a "religion", most of the "10 Commandments"- which come from Spell 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead- were presented as a Mosaic revelation at Mount Sinai (circa 1,500 B.C.E.). They wandered the Sinai desert & studied the Torah afterwards. The first 3:"I am the Lord, thy God." / "Thou shall have no other Gods before me." / "Thou shall not worship any graven images or idols" are the only ones which go AGAINST Egyptian religiosity.

    The Egyptian Book of the Dead, as a whole, began to be circulated on papyrus around 1,550 B.C.E. 1 plus 1 is 2 here. In those 50 or so years, it was not long before said Spell 125 from the Egyptian Book of the Dead would begin to be used as a foundation to describe the 210 years the Israelites spent in Egypt. "Judaism" used the Spell 125 framework as its morality code; taken from a papyrus which began as inscriptions on tomb walls in 2,345 B.C.E. (as King Unas' "Pyramid Texts").

    If you add the Egyptian "beginnings", then... yes... it would be that far back. As far as many of these clades go (from T-L208 & upstream), we are talking even beyond that. In many of these places... the T clades appear to be AHEAD of major civs: predates Minoan Civ by several thousand years (T-L162)... Pre-Dynastic Kmt (T-L208)... Axum... Kush... etc. Ts were driving forces. They were doing what the "Game of Thrones" guy in Bulgaria was doing: running some form of colony (farmers and/or otherwise).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalusian Fusion View Post
    ID Y-DNA Population Language Culture Date(ybp) Location Members/SS Percentage mtDNA Autosomal SNPs Ancestral Components Sample Source Notes
    I0795 - KAR6a - Feature 170 T1a-M70 Early European Neolithic Paleo-European Linearbandkeramik 7200 Karsdorf 1/1 100% H1* 47804 Western European Hunter-Gatherer and Basal Eurasian Tooth [187] Goseck circle
    Perhaps... he went NORTH into Europe from the Sinai at a later date? After T1a-M70 (13,800 B.C.E.), my L-208 lineage goes to Crete in 10,100 B.C.E., only to return to the North African coast (Egypt) by around 6,700 B.C.E.
    Their arrival circa 6,700 B.C.E. places them into a Cushitic-speaking world. Semitic languages would not diverge from Cushitic until around 3,700 years later; all of these, rooted in hieroglyphics (Kmt) & then the Phoenicians who gave us the alphabet by the 2nd Millennium.
    "Northern Afro-Asiatic" language would not exist until at least 1,200 years after their return to North Africa from Crete & they align more or less with the emergence of Cushitic in the Afro-Asiatic heartland (in the SOUTH). If they spoke a Cushitic-type language, they would have left this mark upon Egypt as they made their way up the Nile to the HOA, ultimately leaving their cultural imprint there as they pushed the Khoisan further south.
    What about I0797
    T-M70, mtdna H46b
    7125 ybp.....karsdorf.....from Unstruttal
    And the 3rd sample is KARS537 from karsdorf similar period......T1a1-L162

    Your looking at that new plotting site by the Russian
    He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one

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    Overall activity: 57.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a*

    Ethnic group
    American
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    What about I0797
    T-M70, mtdna H46b
    7125 ybp.....karsdorf.....from Unstruttal
    And the 3rd sample is KARS537 from karsdorf similar period......T1a1-L162

    Your looking at that new plotting site by the Russian
    He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one

    Those two images are of mine (L-208). When I put in the sample from Germany. It comes back as Greece.

    T_Y63197.jpg



    Both are the same here (Y63197).

    Individual remains I0795 KAR6 I0797 KAR16a
    ID I0795 KAR6 Feature 170 Musm.no. 2006:14423a I0797 KAR16a Feature 611 Musm.no. 2004:26374a
    Y DNA T1a1a2-Y63197 T1a1a2-Y63197
    Population Early EN Early EN
    Language Paleo-European Paleo-European
    Culture LBK LBK
    Date (YBP) 7076 ± 90 7087 ± 725
    House / Location S / Karsdorf H / Karsdorf
    Members / Sample Size 1/2 1/2
    Percentage 50% 50%
    mtDNA H1* or H1au1b H46b
    Isotope Sr Native to Unstruttal Native to Unstruttal
    Eye color Likely gray or blue eyes Likely gray or blue eyes
    Hair color Likely non-dark hair Likely non-red hair
    Skin pigmentation Rs1042602 (C;C)
    ABO Blood Group Likely O or B Rs8176719 (T;T)
    Diet (d13C%0 / d15N%0) -20.0 / 9.0 (higher Animal Protein) -20.2 / 9.1 (higher Animal Protein)
    FADS activity rs174554 (A;A) rs174574 (A;A)
    Lactase Persistence Likely lactose-intolerant
    Oase-1 Shared DNA 34.06% 18.06%
    Ostuni1 Shared DNA 12.49% 2.43%
    Neanderthal Vi33.26 Shared DNA 3.81% 1.08%
    Neanderthal Vi33.25 Shared DNA 2.13% 1.79%
    Neanderthal Vi33.16 Shared DNA 1.71% 0%
    Ancestral Component (AC) Neolithic Anatolia/Southeast Europe: 70.56%, Caucasus Hunter / Early European Farmer: 19.86%, Scandinavian / West European Hunter: 9.34%, Paleolithic Levant (Natufians): 0.24% Neolithic Anatolia/Southeast Europe: 56.23%, Paleolithic Levant (Natufians): 16.56%, Caucasus Hunter / Early European Farmer: 14.19%, Scandinavian / West European Hunter: 9.64%, Neolithic Iran: 2.54%
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient 59% Anatolia Neolithic Farmer + 24% Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer+ 10% European Hunter-Gatherer + 7% Near Eastern 60% Anatolia Neolithic Farmer + 27% European Hunter-Gatherer + 9% Near Eastern + 2% Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer + 2% Sub-Saharan
    Dodecad [dv3] 69.1% Mediterranean + 21% West European + 10% Southwest Asian 64.2% Mediterranean + 17.4% West European + 10.5% Southwest Asian+ 4.2% West Asian + 3.7% Northwest African
    Eurogenes [K=36] 56.9% Italian + 31.9% West Mediterranean + 6.3% Iberian + 2.1% Basque + 1.3% North African + 0.9 East Balkan + 0.3% East Mediterranean + 0.3% Arabian 37.1% Italian + 21% West Mediterranean + 16.9% Iberian + 11.8 East Balkan + 7.7% Armenian + 5.5% East Mediterranean + 0.05% North African
    Dodecad [Globe13] 67.4% Mediterranean + 16.5% Southwest Asian + 16% North European 61% Mediterranean + 19.7% Southwest Asian + 19.2% North European
    Genetic Distance 98.6cM in chr 8 98.6cM in chr 8
    Parental Consanguinity MRCA = 1.1 generations MRCA = 1.1 generations
    Age at Death 45-60 24-26
    Death Position Flexed Left Stretched Dorsal
    SNPs 107.480 95.833
    Read Pairs 5.279.657 7.128.606
    Sample Tooth / Rib Tooth / Rib
    Source [1][2][3] [1][2][3]
    Notes Goseck circle Goseck circle



    As for the mtDNAs of each:


    Frequencies of haplogroup H1 in the world (Ottoni et al. 2010)

    Region or Population H1% No. of subjects
    Libyan Tuareg 61 129
    Basques (Spain) 27.8 108
    Portugal 25.5 499
    Andalusia 24.3 103
    Pasiegos (Cantabria) 23.5 51
    Tuareg (West Sahel) 23.3 90
    Berbers (Morocco) 20.2 217
    Spain (miscellaneous) 18.9 132
    Finland 18 78
    Sardinia 17.9 106
    Galicia 17.7 266
    Basques (France) 17.5 40
    Slovak (East) 16.8 137
    Estonia 16.7 114
    Western Sahara 14.8 128
    Béarnaise 14.8 27
    Slovak (West) 14.2 70
    Catalonia 13.9 101
    Volga-Ural Finnic speakers 13.6 125
    Russia 13.5 312
    Berbers (Tunisia) 13.4 276
    France 12.3 106
    Morocco 12.2 180
    Italy (north) 11.5 322
    Hungary 11.3 303
    Czech Republic 10.8 102
    Tunisia 10.6 269
    Austria 10.6 2487
    Sicily 10 90
    Ukraine 9.9 191
    Mozabite 9.8 80
    Romania 9.4 360
    Poland 9.3 86
    Caucasus (north) 8.8 68
    Netherlands 8.8 34
    Italy (south) 8.7 206
    Croatia 8.3 84
    Slovaks 7.6 119
    Macedonia 7.1 252
    Mauritania 6.9 102
    Italy (center) 6.3 208
    Greece (mainland) 6.3 79
    Germany 6 100
    Balkans 5.4 111
    Northwestern Caucasus 4.7 234
    Karachay-Balkars 4.4 203
    Lebanese 4.2 167
    Druze 3.4 58
    Turks 3.3 360
    Albania 2.9 105
    Daghestan 2.5 269
    Ossetians 2.4 296
    Caucasus (south) 2.3 132
    Armenians 2.3 175
    Iraq 1.9 206
    Yakuts 1.7 58
    Lithuania 1.7 180
    Jordanians 1.7 173
    Greece (Aegean islands) 1.6 247
    Siwas (Egypt) 1.1 184
    Georgians 1 193
    Arabian Peninsula (incl. Yemen, Oman) 0.8 493
    Central Asia 0.7 445
    Dubai (United Arab Emirates) 0.4 249
    Senegal 0 100
    Fulani (Chad–Cameroon) 0 186
    Cameroon 0 142
    Chad 0 77
    Buduma (Niger) 0 30
    Nigeria 0 69
    Ethiopia 0 82
    Amhara (Ethiopia) 0 90
    Oromo (Ethiopia) 0 117
    Sierra Leone 0 155
    Guineans (Guiné Bissau) 0 372
    Mali 0 83
    Kikuyu (Kenya) 0 24
    Benin 0 192
    Pakistan 0 100
    Saami 0 57
    Arabian Peninsula 0 94
    Syrians 0 159
    Africa
    Asia
    Caucasus
    Europe
    Middle East



    As for the 2nd one:

    H4, H7 and H13


    These H4, H7 and H13 sub-haplogroups are present in both Europe and West Asia; the H13 subclade is also found in the Caucasus. They are quite rare.

    H4 is often found in the Iberian peninsula, the Maghreb, Finland, Britain and Ireland.

    H4 and H13, along with H2 account for 42% of the hg H lineages in Egypt.



    He could have started further south & then went up... ending up in Germany. Given the equidistance of the Hs & the path his genes took... could it be his wife was Egyptian?? The high probability of "Libyan" is also there. This could have been a major route up into Europe & may have had people moving more frequently through it (wild guess here).

    This is the first time I have looked over this information re: Karsdorf specimens. Feedback as I continue researching would be greatly appreciated at this time.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one
    lol... yeah... had that "must be a merman" kind of feeling when I ended up way offshore Egypt.

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