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Thread: Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

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    Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

    As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    No idea but rest assured Zoroastrianism spread with Eastern Iranian R1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    No idea but rest assured Zoroastrianism spread with Eastern Iranian R1a
    Indo-Iranian migration to Iran is just a myth, it has been also said that haplogroup R1b relates to Indo-Iranians but we see this haplogroup has the highest frequency among Assyrians in Tehran.


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    As R1b and E1b are not particularly common in Iran, I would guess it was some kind of founder effect/genetic bottleneck that resulted in these current haplogroup percentages. J2 is the only one I would have expected to be that frequency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    As R1b and E1b are not particularly common in Iran, I would guess it was some kind of founder effect/genetic bottleneck that resulted in these current haplogroup percentages. J2 is the only one I would have expected to be that frequency.
    It seems there is a big difference between what you expect and what the reality is, R1b has the highest frequency in Turkmenistan (northeast of Iran) and Armenia (northwest of Iran), I don't know why you didn't expect this frequency in Iran.

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    Why would they have Turkic Y-DNA? As the south central Asia paper has shown there was no R1a in Indo-Iranian territory until 500BC when the Turkic invasions begin.

    On the other hand aDNA on Turks/Huns that we have:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...000000005&z=11
    DA89 R1a-M417
    DA86 Q-M25
    DA224 R1a-Z93
    DA29 R1a-Z280
    DA27 R1a-Z93
    DA385 R1a-Z2125
    DA101 R1a-Z93
    We also have leaked information that Khazars were R1a, so Turkic peoples in general derived from and were the same as Andronovo.

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    Oh, yes, 9.5% of a haplogroup is an abundance. And I'm using data from this site. That is the same amount as the percentage of R1a in western Germany (where my male line comes from) and that is considered to be a small amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?
    Because n=13? As you know the Yazd Zoroastrians (n=34) in the same study had 18% R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Indo-Iranian migration to Iran is just a myth, it has been also said that haplogroup R1b relates to Indo-Iranians but we see this haplogroup has the highest frequency among Assyrians in Tehran.
    The oldest Sarmatians(fire) so far are R1b-Z2109(also found in Yamnaya- and Sintashta cultures.)Grugni 2012 R1b samples are unclear in the exact clade of R1b found in Zoastrian and Lurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    Why would they have Turkic Y-DNA? As the south central Asia paper has shown there was no R1a in Indo-Iranian territory until 500BC when the Turkic invasions begin.
    On the other hand aDNA on Turks/Huns that we have:
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...000000005&z=11
    DA89 R1a-M417
    DA86 Q-M25
    DA224 R1a-Z93
    DA29 R1a-Z280
    DA27 R1a-Z93
    DA385 R1a-Z2125
    DA101 R1a-Z93
    We also have leaked information that Khazars were R1a, so Turkic peoples in general derived from and were the same as Andronovo.
    I also believe that Indo-Iranians were actually an Altaic people who adopted an Indo-European culture (Altaic substrate), of course first Uralic people created Satem language in the Corded Ware culture. Anyway Indo-Iranian phonology and sound changes clearly show Altaic influence. It is too soon for talking about Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Oh, yes, 9.5% of a haplogroup is an abundance. And I'm using data from this site. That is the same amount as the percentage of R1a in western Germany (where my male line comes from) and that is considered to be a small amount.
    R1b just exists in the north and west of Iran, even in the west of Iran it has a very low frequency among Kurds, it also shows that it couldn't be Indo-Iranian haplogroup, as I said it also has a high frequency among Assyrians, Armenians and some other non-Iranian people in Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Because n=13? As you know the Yazd Zoroastrians (n=34) in the same study had 18% R1a.
    Yazd dates back to the Sassanid era, in Avesta people of this region, the same as Persia and Media, were not considered as an Iranian people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The oldest Sarmatians(fire) so far are R1b-Z2109(also found in Yamnaya- and Sintashta cultures.)Grugni 2012 R1b samples are unclear in the exact clade of R1b found in Zoastrian and Lurs.
    What do you mean by the oldest Sarmartians? Grugni talks about R1b-L23 and R1b-L151 (R1b1a2a1a) in Iran.

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/

    Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest extant religions in the world, originating in Persia (present-day Iran) during the second millennium BCE. Historical records indicate that migrants from Persia brought Zoroastrianism to India, but there is debate over the timing of these migrations.


    .................................................. ......

    for my line was I looking at south Central Asia ...........where the Persians began before moving to Iran , they had Zorastrian
    some info
    Along Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups I M170, and I P215, the third most common haplogroup among the Iranian Zoroastrian Priesthood is T1a2.
    While the original I haplogroups appear to go back to the Magis of Zarathustra and BMAC culture, the latter T1a2 haplogroup must hail back to the Median Magi from the West. T1a2 or (T L131) has been found as far East as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. T1a2 penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe of Eurasia during the Neolithic, and became integrated to the indigenous R1a peoples (Proto Indo Iranians) before their expansion to Central Asia during the Bronze Age.


    .................................................. ......

    and read for Zorastrians
    Ancient Iranian Agriculturists, Hittite DNA remains, and the earliest Indo European languages


    A. Farahmand


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Yazd dates back to the Sassanid era, in Avesta people of this region, the same as Persia and Media, were not considered as an Iranian people.
    Yeah, I'm sure this modern sample of 13 is a great indication of the genetic profile of the Avestan period. I regret replying to you already, bye.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    R1b just exists in the north and west of Iran, even in the west of Iran it has a very low frequency among Kurds, it also shows that it couldn't be Indo-Iranian haplogroup, as I said it also has a high frequency among Assyrians, Armenians and some other non-Iranian people in Iran.
    If you parse the data to the correct branch of R1b you can get a better idea. The most northerly Eastern Iranian speaking branch of R1b is Z2110+ found in modern day Alan-Ossettians. It is the only branch related to R1b-Z2109 found in -Yamnaya,Afansievo,Poltavka,Catacombe,Eastern Bell Beaker[Hungary],Sintashta,proto-Sarmatian [R-Y20993*=Sarmatian-id:YF03134 I0575,
    The Sarmatians differed from the Scythians in their veneration of the god of fire rather than god of nature
    .
    Modern day Alans R1b-Z2110+and Yamnaya- Catacombe /Sarmatian culture R1b-Z2109+. In same region as Eneolithic Progress samples R1b-V1636+


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    Language[edit]

    The language of the Catacomb culture must naturally remain unknown. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis expounded by Marija Gimbutas, an Indo-European component is speculated about, particularly in the later stages. Placing the ancestors of the Greek, Albanian and Armenian (perhaps Paleo-Balkan) dialects here is tempting, as it would neatly explain certain shared features.
    More recently, the Ukrainian archaeologist V. Kulbaka has argued that the Late Yamnaya cultures of c. 3200–2800 BC, esp. the Budzhak, Starosilsk, and Novotitarovka groups, might represent the Balkan-Indo-European-"Iranian" ancestors, and the Catacomb culture (to c. 2500 BC) that of the then still unified Indo-Iranians.[citation needed] However, according to recent glottochronological computations, these splits occurred much earlier.[citation needed]
    Grigoryev's (1998) version of the Armenian hypothesis connects Catacomb culture with Indo-Aryans, because catacomb burial ritual had roots in South-Western Turkmenistan from the early 4th millennium (Parkhai cemetery).[citation needed] The same opinion is supported by Leo Klejn in his various publications.[citation needed]


    http://homeland.ku.dk/
    Last edited by Silesian; 08-06-19 at 01:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias
    Yeah, I'm sure this modern sample of 13 is a great indication of the genetic profile of the Avestan period. I regret replying to you already, bye.
    I want to know why it is not, bye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian
    If you parse the data to the correct branch of R1b you can get a better idea. The most northerly Eastern Iranian speaking branch of R1b is Z2110+ found in modern day Alan-Ossettians. It is the only branch related to R1b-Z2109 found in -Yamnaya,Afansievo,Poltavka,Catacombe,Eastern Bell Beaker[Hungary],Sintashta,proto-Sarmatian [R-Y20993*=Sarmatian-id:YF03134 I0575,
    You have really an interesting theory, if I got it correctly, you mean the main Indo-European haplogroup is R1b-Z2109, a subclade of R1b-Z2103, yes? So U106, P312, ... don't relate to Indo-Europeans?

    I should research more about it but as I see it also shows an opposite Gothic migration from Getae (Bulgaria/Romania) about 700 BC to Poland/Germany and finally Sweden, for example look at these ones: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16145/ & https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14300/

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    n=13 is a small sample size and of a modern people. You can't make a strong inference from that. So many factors can be at play here that would cause an increase or decrease in specific haplogroups.

    You've misunderstood Silesian, he did not imply any of what you are saying.

    Also, a reverse migration of Goths? Think again:
    One of them assumes that the homeland of the Goths was located in the southernmost part of the Germanic territories other than in Scandinavia35. Considering the results obtained for both the Kow-OVIA and Mas-VBIA, one can assume that they are, to a large extent, consistent with the postulated chronology of early migrations of Goths and their settlement in Central-East Europe. The high genetic diversity of the Mas-VBIA strongly corresponds with the suggested role of Masłomęcz at that time22. The archaeological findings indicate that in the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D., it was one of the major cultural and political Goth centers. In addition, the genetic relationships reported here between the Mas-VBIA and both earlier characterized IA populations (the Kow-OVIA and JIA) support the opinion that southern Scandinavia was the homeland of the Goths.
    JIA = Jutland Iron Age
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43183-w

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    You have really an interesting theory, if I got it correctly, you mean the main Indo-European haplogroup is R1b-Z2109, a subclade of R1b-Z2103, yes? So U106, P312, ... don't relate to Indo-Europeans?

    I should research more about it but as I see it also shows an opposite Gothic migration from Getae (Bulgaria/Romania) about 700 BC to Poland/Germany and finally Sweden, for example look at these ones: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16145/ & https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14300/
    Yes some interesting game changers. R-Y5592 Y5592 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybpinfo


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Indo-Iranian migration to Iran is just a myth, it has been also said that haplogroup R1b relates to Indo-Iranians but we see this haplogroup has the highest frequency among Assyrians in Tehran.

    How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?
    I don't see any genetic or linguistic evidence which supports it, if you know please tell me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?
    From the latest genetic data (and linguistic records) it is supported. Some people however are contrarian and deny evidence if it doesn't fit their narrative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't see any genetic or linguistic evidence which supports it, if you know please tell me.
    The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.

    I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.

    I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!
    I think you meant Indo-Iranians, Iranians are not an Indo-Aryan people.

    As I have said in some other threads in this forum, I believe the main Iranian people who migrated to Iran were Cimmerians (Persians) who came through the Caucasus and Anatolia in the 1st millennium BC. Their main haplogroups are J2 and R1b, other than Zoroastrians, we see Persians in Persia (modern Fars) have also a very low frequency of R1a (about 4%), whenas we know Persia was the center of Iranian culture in Iran.

    It is meaningless to say Afghans and Tajiks who adopted Persian culture are genetically Iranian but Persians in Persia are not!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ah, yes n=13, definitive of so much.

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