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Thread: Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.

    I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!
    1. Can IE people from East europe reach to south India by relay-race migration?
    what did sintashta people do with worldly-praising chariot?

    see seima turbino territory which everybody knows. So every body think that ST were uralic.

    https://indo-european.eu/tag/seima-turbino/

    2. Problem is that is not enough. see what happened around 3.5ky ago:

    According to Grigoryev,
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture.]


    From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:



    there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-westernpoland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture.
    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002

    To china (PIE was in china bronze):



    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...64/core-reader

    abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

    3. I think ST people were just like mongol, therefore, I think horse people in central asia started to butcher farming land since 3500 year ago.

    4. India was an exception?
    Surely ST culture seems to reach there in copper hoard culture in india.
    Andronovo never reached near India.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph

    5. However, don't underestimate altai seima turbino people, who were pyramid people like mayan: That is why i think mesoamerican type pyramid is in india and china now.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...and-poll/page2 (post #35)


    6. all steppe culture is related with vedic culture, b/c siberian shamanism entered India. That is b/c hindu civilization is extremely close to mayan civilization. European bloggers say that their people went to India, while indian bloggers ask why hindu culture is so close to mayan culture.

    Last edited by johen; Today at 01:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ah, yes n=13, definitive of so much.
    No, 4% is so much (frequency of R1a among Persians in Persia)!!

    In the last 2,600 years, Persians have always lived in Persia (Fars province of Iran) and they have preserved their culture, even xwēdōdah (next of kin marriage) can be still seen among Persians, I really don't know who are these imaginary Iranians that Persians and Zoroastrians are not among them!

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    I think theres been several migrations to Persia, Aria(Herat), Bactria, Gandhara of people from Steppe now which one belong to which sub-cultural group has became complicated by Genetic studies of the last decade, previously there existed only Indo-Iranians yet now genetics has shown there were several tribes who came from several sources in the steppe(Cimmerians, Andronovo, Sintashta,...) I think people from Andronovo gave rise to Avestan languages, Cimmerians or other Steppe cultures gave rise to Persian Languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I think theres been several migrations to Persia, Aria(Herat), Bactria, Gandhara of people from Steppe now which one belong to which sub-cultural group has became complicated by Genetic studies of the last decade, previously there existed only Indo-Iranians yet now genetics has shown there were several tribes who came from several sources in the steppe(Cimmerians, Andronovo, Sintashta,...) I think people from Andronovo gave rise to Avestan languages, Cimmerians or other Steppe cultures gave rise to Persian Languages.
    No in the last 2,000 years there were actually several migrations of ethnically non-Indo-Iranian people to Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India, from the Kushans and Hephthalites to Khaljis, Timurids and Mughals, haplogroup R1a-Z93 relates to these people who originally lived in the lands where ancient DNA evidences of this haplogroup has been found. In Iran R1a-Z93 mostly relates to Turko-Mongol people, except a few years after the Safavid era, there is absolutely no evidence of the presence of a people from Afghanistan/Pakistan/India in Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    No in the last 2,000 years there were actually several migrations of ethnically non-Indo-Iranian people to Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India, from the Kushans and Hephthalites to Khaljis, Timurids and Mughals, haplogroup R1a-Z93 relates to these people who originally lived in the lands where ancient DNA evidences of this haplogroup has been found. In Iran R1a-Z93 mostly relates to Turko-Mongol people, except a few years after the Safavid era, there is absolutely no evidence of the presence of a people from Afghanistan/Pakistan/India in Iran.
    I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?
    There is no doubt that Indo-Iranians migrated to the South Asia but not in 1700 BC, in this period we see a strong influence of Indo-Aryan subbranch of Indo-Iranian in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni in Syria, also the influence of proto-Iranian language in the early languages of eastern Europe, like proto-Baltic, for example look at this word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spos#Latvian Arkaim in Russia is clearly an ancient Iranian site, many elements of Zoroastrian culture can be seen there, in the 3rd millennium BC proto-Iranians from Afghanistan migrated to Russia and Eastern Europe and from there they came to Iran in the 1st millennium BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?

    Do you have any more in depth information about which clades of J2 and E1b1b1 these zoroastranians belong to?
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  8. #33
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Do you have any more in depth information about which clades of J2 and E1b1b1 these zoroastranians belong to?
    E1b1b1a1a (7.7%)
    E1b1b1a1b (7.7%)
    E1b1b1c1 (15.4%)

    J2a3 (23.1)
    J2a3h (15.4)

    The interesting point about E1b1b1c1 is that it can be seen just among Zoroastrians (Tehran), Zoroastrians (Yazd), Persians (Persia) and Arabs (Khuzestan).

    Another interesting point is that the main subclade of R1b among Zoroastrians (Tehran) is M269, unlike all other people in Iran who have mostly L23, ancient Rhages/Europos (Modern Tehran) is actually the only city in Iran which has been mentioned in Avesta, all other known cities are in modern Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    There is no doubt that Indo-Iranians migrated to the South Asia but not in 1700 BC, in this period we see a strong influence of Indo-Aryan subbranch of Indo-Iranian in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni in Syria, also the influence of proto-Iranian language in the early languages of eastern Europe, like proto-Baltic, for example look at this word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spo�s#Latvian Arkaim in Russia is clearly an ancient Iranian site, many elements of Zoroastrian culture can be seen there, in the 3rd millennium BC proto-Iranians from Afghanistan migrated to Russia and Eastern Europe and from there they came to Iran in the 1st millennium BC.
    What kind of zoroastrian culture was in there?
    How do you think the proto-Iranian moved over there? was there a route?

    I just think it happened by technology stealing (stealing artisan) as we in now, b/c seima turbion tin technology also originated in south caucasus.
    And I think farmers couldn't enter the bloody hell zone of cannibals in altai people. I think this people was more cruel than the mongol who reached in Iran and china.
    I think this kind of altai brutal culture migrated in far east asia with their bronze weapon:



    Manchu people in china:


    https://www.quora.com/Which-empire-h...o-other-empire
    Last edited by johen; Today at 20:54.

  10. #35
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    ^
    Here is same thing in neolithic chinese yangshao culture.
    I don't think EEF penetrated the bloody zone to china: (Banpo burial site ) west eurasian flexed burial and Cucuteni–Trypillia culture style pottery.



    The decoration engraved on the wall of one of these granary "shrines" in Cucuteni–Trypillia culture : yin and yang?

    I don't know, but looks like dao(ism) and dual(ism) or duo have a same PIE root?


    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...-and-yang.html

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