Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 94

Thread: Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

  1. #26
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    521
    Points
    6,349
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,349, Level: 23
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 201
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.

    I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!
    1. Can IE people from East europe reach to south India by relay-race migration?
    what did sintashta people do with worldly-praising chariot?

    see seima turbino territory which everybody knows. So every body think that ST were uralic.

    https://indo-european.eu/tag/seima-turbino/

    2. Problem is that is not enough. see what happened around 3.5ky ago:

    According to Grigoryev,
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture.]


    From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:



    there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-westernpoland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture.
    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002

    To china (PIE was in china bronze):



    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...64/core-reader

    abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

    3. I think ST people were just like mongol, therefore, I think horse people in central asia started to butcher farming land since 3500 year ago.

    4. India was an exception?
    Surely ST culture seems to reach there in copper hoard culture in india.
    Andronovo never reached near India.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....tai-petroglyph

    5. However, don't underestimate altai seima turbino people, who were pyramid people like mayan: That is why i think mesoamerican type pyramid is in india and china now.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...and-poll/page2 (post #35)


    6. all steppe culture is related with vedic culture, b/c siberian shamanism entered India. That is b/c hindu civilization is extremely close to mayan civilization. European bloggers say that their people went to India, while indian bloggers ask why hindu culture is so close to mayan culture.

    Last edited by johen; 20-06-19 at 02:36.

  2. #27
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Ah, yes n=13, definitive of so much.
    No, 4% is so much (frequency of R1a among Persians in Persia)!!

    In the last 2,600 years, Persians have always lived in Persia (Fars province of Iran) and they have preserved their culture, even xwēdōdah (next of kin marriage) can be still seen among Persians, I really don't know who are these imaginary Iranians that Persians and Zoroastrians are not among them!

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-19
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    89
    Points
    739
    Level
    6
    Points: 739, Level: 6
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 11
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Eurasian
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    I think theres been several migrations to Persia, Aria(Herat), Bactria, Gandhara of people from Steppe now which one belong to which sub-cultural group has became complicated by Genetic studies of the last decade, previously there existed only Indo-Iranians yet now genetics has shown there were several tribes who came from several sources in the steppe(Cimmerians, Andronovo, Sintashta,...) I think people from Andronovo gave rise to Avestan languages, Cimmerians or other Steppe cultures gave rise to Persian Languages.

  4. #29
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I think theres been several migrations to Persia, Aria(Herat), Bactria, Gandhara of people from Steppe now which one belong to which sub-cultural group has became complicated by Genetic studies of the last decade, previously there existed only Indo-Iranians yet now genetics has shown there were several tribes who came from several sources in the steppe(Cimmerians, Andronovo, Sintashta,...) I think people from Andronovo gave rise to Avestan languages, Cimmerians or other Steppe cultures gave rise to Persian Languages.
    No in the last 2,000 years there were actually several migrations of ethnically non-Indo-Iranian people to Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India, from the Kushans and Hephthalites to Khaljis, Timurids and Mughals, haplogroup R1a-Z93 relates to these people who originally lived in the lands where ancient DNA evidences of this haplogroup has been found. In Iran R1a-Z93 mostly relates to Turko-Mongol people, except a few years after the Safavid era, there is absolutely no evidence of the presence of a people from Afghanistan/Pakistan/India in Iran.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-19
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    89
    Points
    739
    Level
    6
    Points: 739, Level: 6
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 11
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Eurasian
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    No in the last 2,000 years there were actually several migrations of ethnically non-Indo-Iranian people to Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India, from the Kushans and Hephthalites to Khaljis, Timurids and Mughals, haplogroup R1a-Z93 relates to these people who originally lived in the lands where ancient DNA evidences of this haplogroup has been found. In Iran R1a-Z93 mostly relates to Turko-Mongol people, except a few years after the Safavid era, there is absolutely no evidence of the presence of a people from Afghanistan/Pakistan/India in Iran.
    I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?

  6. #31
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?
    There is no doubt that Indo-Iranians migrated to the South Asia but not in 1700 BC, in this period we see a strong influence of Indo-Aryan subbranch of Indo-Iranian in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni in Syria, also the influence of proto-Iranian language in the early languages of eastern Europe, like proto-Baltic, for example look at this word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spos#Latvian Arkaim in Russia is clearly an ancient Iranian site, many elements of Zoroastrian culture can be seen there, in the 3rd millennium BC proto-Iranians from Afghanistan migrated to Russia and Eastern Europe and from there they came to Iran in the 1st millennium BC.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?

    Do you have any more in depth information about which clades of J2 and E1b1b1 these zoroastranians belong to?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  8. #33
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Do you have any more in depth information about which clades of J2 and E1b1b1 these zoroastranians belong to?
    E1b1b1a1a (7.7%)
    E1b1b1a1b (7.7%)
    E1b1b1c1 (15.4%)

    J2a3 (23.1)
    J2a3h (15.4)

    The interesting point about E1b1b1c1 is that it can be seen just among Zoroastrians (Tehran), Zoroastrians (Yazd), Persians (Persia) and Arabs (Khuzestan).

    Another interesting point is that the main subclade of R1b among Zoroastrians (Tehran) is M269, unlike all other people in Iran who have mostly L23, ancient Rhages/Europos (Modern Tehran) is actually the only city in Iran which has been mentioned in Avesta, all other known cities are in modern Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.

  9. #34
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    521
    Points
    6,349
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,349, Level: 23
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 201
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Canada



    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    There is no doubt that Indo-Iranians migrated to the South Asia but not in 1700 BC, in this period we see a strong influence of Indo-Aryan subbranch of Indo-Iranian in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni in Syria, also the influence of proto-Iranian language in the early languages of eastern Europe, like proto-Baltic, for example look at this word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spo�s#Latvian Arkaim in Russia is clearly an ancient Iranian site, many elements of Zoroastrian culture can be seen there, in the 3rd millennium BC proto-Iranians from Afghanistan migrated to Russia and Eastern Europe and from there they came to Iran in the 1st millennium BC.
    What kind of zoroastrian culture was in there?
    How do you think the proto-Iranian moved over there? was there a route?

    I just think it happened by technology stealing (stealing artisan) as we in now, b/c seima turbion tin technology also originated in south caucasus.
    And I think farmers couldn't enter the bloody hell zone of cannibals in altai people. I think this people was more cruel than the mongol who reached in Iran and china.
    I think this kind of altai brutal culture migrated in far east asia with their bronze weapon:



    Manchu people in china:


    https://www.quora.com/Which-empire-h...o-other-empire
    Last edited by johen; 20-06-19 at 21:54.

  10. #35
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    521
    Points
    6,349
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,349, Level: 23
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 201
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Canada



    ^
    Here is same thing in neolithic chinese yangshao culture.
    I don't think EEF penetrated the bloody zone to china: (Banpo burial site ) west eurasian flexed burial and Cucuteni–Trypillia culture style pottery.



    The decoration engraved on the wall of one of these granary "shrines" in Cucuteni–Trypillia culture : yin and yang?

    I don't know, but looks like dao(ism) and dual(ism) or duo have a same PIE root?


    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...-and-yang.html

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    E1b1b1a1a (7.7%)
    E1b1b1a1b (7.7%)
    E1b1b1c1 (15.4%)

    J2a3 (23.1)
    J2a3h (15.4)

    The interesting point about E1b1b1c1 is that it can be seen just among Zoroastrians (Tehran), Zoroastrians (Yazd), Persians (Persia) and Arabs (Khuzestan).

    Another interesting point is that the main subclade of R1b among Zoroastrians (Tehran) is M269, unlike all other people in Iran who have mostly L23, ancient Rhages/Europos (Modern Tehran) is actually the only city in Iran which has been mentioned in Avesta, all other known cities are in modern Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.


    What about EV13 in Iran? Do we know when it got there? Do the EV13 people of Iran (marked in yellow) have anything in common with respect to iranian history:


  12. #37
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think you meant Indo-Iranians, Iranians are not an Indo-Aryan people.

    As I have said in some other threads in this forum, I believe the main Iranian people who migrated to Iran were Cimmerians (Persians) who came through the Caucasus and Anatolia in the 1st millennium BC. Their main haplogroups are J2 and R1b, other than Zoroastrians, we see Persians in Persia (modern Fars) have also a very low frequency of R1a (about 4%), whenas we know Persia was the center of Iranian culture in Iran.

    It is meaningless to say Afghans and Tajiks who adopted Persian culture are genetically Iranian but Persians in Persia are not!
    I agree that, autosomally, Iranians do not look at all an Indo-Aryan people. My calculations estimate that they are (i) first and foremost, of Caucasus origin (my guess is that they derive from people retreating from the Indo-Aryans), (ii) next, of long-term indigenous Iranian origin, (iii) to a lesser extent, Sintashta-like steppic people (directly of origin North of Iran), and (iv) fractionally, Arabic-like. The estimate is also that the Sintashta-like steppic DNA arrived last, after 1,000 BC, long after the related Indo-Aryans either skirted around Iran, migrated through it or were diluted to insignificance within it.

    Perhaps Zoroastrians were a tight-knit community already by the time the R1a steppics arrived, and so were a little more shielded from their genetic influence?

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ghani's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-09-17
    Posts
    20
    Points
    1,850
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,850, Level: 11
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Q-M25
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W

    Ethnic group
    Kurds
    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I agree that, autosomally, Iranians do not look at all an Indo-Aryan people. My calculations estimate that they are (i) first and foremost, of Caucasus origin
    I don't think so because there is an increasing gradient of Central Asian related ancestry as you go from the Caucasus into Iran (BMAC, E Asian, Gedrosian, and the like). The flow of these components is East to West or South to North and not visa versa.

    Although Iranians do harbor a sizeable percentage of indigenous Zagrosian related herder ancestry, there is a heavy shift in autosomal and uniparental components towards Central Asia when you compare those Chalcolithic Zagrosians with modern Iranians.


    My calculations estimate
    What exactly do you mean. Can you elaborate on specifically what type of calculations you have done.

  14. #39
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    I don't think so because there is an increasing gradient of Central Asian related ancestry as you go from the Caucasus into Iran (BMAC, E Asian, Gedrosian, and the like). The flow of these components is East to West or South to North and not visa versa.
    Although Iranians do harbor a sizeable percentage of indigenous Zagrosian related herder ancestry, there is a heavy shift in autosomal and uniparental components towards Central Asia when you compare those Chalcolithic Zagrosians with modern Iranians.
    What exactly do you mean. Can you elaborate on specifically what type of calculations you have done.
    I don't disagree with you. It's a statistical calculator of autosomal combinations from prior populations. It gives a most likely estimate of Bronze Age drift from the West, especially North West, into older Iranian DNA - an admixture, not a replacement. It estimates the steppic intrusion was a smaller, later wave from Central Asia - post-IndoAryan, but not Turkic.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ghani's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-09-17
    Posts
    20
    Points
    1,850
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,850, Level: 11
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Q-M25
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W

    Ethnic group
    Kurds
    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I don't disagree with you. It's a statistical calculator of autosomal combinations from prior populations. It gives a most likely estimate of Bronze Age drift from the West, especially North West, into older Iranian DNA - an admixture, not a replacement. It estimates the steppic intrusion was a smaller, later wave from Central Asia - post-IndoAryan, but not Turkic.
    Post Indo Aryan and not Turkic would be the Iron Age Saka/Scythians or Parthians. At https://eurasiandna.com/impact-of-th...an-demography/ they showed that using qpAdm Kurds can be much better modeled using Chalcolithic Haji-Firuz + Saka than Haji-Firuz + Sintashta.
    I would assume that applies to some other Iranians as well.
    [IMG][/IMG]


    EDIT:
    Zoroastrians probably were more shielded from this type of admixture as indicated by their East Asian levels, phenotypes, and uniparentals

  16. #41
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    521
    Points
    6,349
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,349, Level: 23
    Level completed: 60%, Points required for next Level: 201
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?
    However, looks like zoroastrian absorbed altai culture.

    mithraism is an oriental rite, religious and myth overspread in the west spatially among roman empire before christ. te an-tiquity of discovered temples in azerbaijan-iran shows it did ad- vent from atropatene (medes empire) and improved by persian empire. it should not be forgotten its ceremonies is one of the most effective rites that could dominate abrahamic religious and zoroastrianism before overspreading into borders of roman empire when the jesus was not born. its sense of space and form of temples are comprehensible regarding to the sequential tem- ples of zoroastrians, jews, romans, christians and etc [1]
    rock-born mithras(credit:Carole Raddato from FRANKFURT, Germany)


    okunevo:



    the sacred numberseven te number seven wasthefullest in the manycultures and reli-gions because of connectionwith thecreation story. according tothe holly books`narration; all the universe was created in six days or six stages then the lord spentthe seventh dayto relax.[5], [6]. in many other cultures similar views have been expressed about the creation. ries of mihraism represening by oher reli-gious mithras was the god of the covenant and obligation and mutual faithfulness [7].mithras was born out of a rock in a cave. it re- veals the bull to the ground and sits on its back and plunged the knife into the bull’s shoulder.bull was symbol of terrestrial power. so, rock and soil are holly that caused to build underground rocky temples. also, fire which represents lighting was the symbol of felicity. subsequently, sun- worshiping was another attribute to be recognized. tere was a complex system of seven dignity of initiation with ritual meals that was sacred for mithras worshippers. it was called syndexioi among initiates that “united by the handshake”(figure4)[8]
    https://www.academia.edu/11304781/MI...L_ARCHITECTURE


    https://getarumterra.wordpress.com/k...lyph-pleiades/

  17. #42
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by pip
    Perhaps Zoroastrians were a tight-knit community already by the time the R1a steppics arrived, and so were a little more shielded from their genetic influence?
    I think by the R1a steppe people, you mean Scythians, in the 7th century BC they conquered northwest of Iran (modern Azarbaijan and Kurdistan provinces), not other lands, Saqqez in Kurdistan is believed to be their political center, the influence of Eastern Iranian culture is certainly stronger in the Kurdish culture than other western Iranian cultures, for example we see Kurdish masi "fish", jin "woman", ... in fact Kurdish is a Scytho-Cimmerian language. Of course it is possible that some elements of Indo-Iranjan culture existed in Maiti (Mede) culture in the 2nd millennium BC too. Some linguists believe the name of Mitanni/Media has an Indo-Iranian origin with the meaning of "mountain".

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think by the R1a steppe people, you mean Scythians, in the 7th century BC they conquered northwest of Iran (modern Azarbaijan and Kurdistan provinces), not other lands, Saqqez in Kurdistan is believed to be their political center, the influence of Eastern Iranian culture is certainly stronger in the Kurdish culture than other western Iranian cultures, for example we see Kurdish masi "fish", jin "woman", ... in fact Kurdish is a Scytho-Cimmerian language. Of course it is possible that some elements of Indo-Iranjan culture existed in Maiti (Mede) culture in the 2nd millennium BC too. Some linguists believe the name of Mitanni/Media has an Indo-Iranian origin with the meaning of "mountain".
    Cyrus, is there anything Azeri, Afro-Iranians, Kurds, Assyrians, Persians and Yazd Zoroastrians have in common?

    I don't know Iran history in depth to have a grasp of the picture. All these people showed up as having EV13 in that Iran Y-dna paper. Did they get it in different waves, or is there a historical undercurrent apparant to you that possibly unites some or all of them?

  19. #44
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Cyrus, is there anything Azeri, Afro-Iranians, Kurds, Assyrians, Persians and Yazd Zoroastrians have in common?

    I don't know Iran history in depth to have a grasp of the picture. All these people showed up as having EV13 in that Iran Y-dna paper. Did they get it in different waves, or is there a historical undercurrent apparant to you that possibly unites some or all of them?
    I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.
    Interesting. Yes E1b in general is related to africa, but Ev13 is indo european and mostly absent from africa. I saw many other indo european haplogroups among afro iranians which is probably explained since they entered iran as slaves, like in america where african americans have germanic haplogroups etc.

    From the afro-iranian wiki:

    "During the Qajar dynasty, many wealthy households imported Black African women and children as slaves to perform domestic work. This slave labor was drawn exclusively from the Zanj, who were Bantu-speaking peoples that lived along the coast of the Southeast Africa, in an area roughly comprising modern-day Tanzania, "

    So the slave owners probably passed on Ev13 and other IE haplogroups onto the afro-iranians. For example they also have J2b-m241, a totally non african haplo.

    Here is a short good explanation of why EV13 is associated with Indo-Europeans:

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...-DNA.shtml#V13

  21. #46
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    Post Indo Aryan and not Turkic would be the Iron Age Saka/Scythians or Parthians. At https://eurasiandna.com/impact-of-th...an-demography/ they showed that using qpAdm Kurds can be much better modeled using Chalcolithic Haji-Firuz + Saka than Haji-Firuz + Sintashta.
    I don't have comparable data for Saka-TienShan, but other Scythian groups are not a good fit for mainstream modern Iranians on my calculator, although perhaps they fit better with Kurds and some other groups in the region?

  22. #47
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.
    If the E1b1 is V13, I suspect you are right.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-06-17
    Posts
    1,016
    Points
    15,873
    Level
    38
    Points: 15,873, Level: 38
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 577
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    If the E1b1 is V13, I suspect you are right.
    It is EV13. But I am now also wondering about Iranian J2b-M241 that is also there in Yazd in persians.

    If it is L283 and if its TMRCA's also line up with Macedonian conquest then we have a pretty certain confirmation that ancestors of Gege Albanians partook in that conquest possibly as soldiers. If its just another branch that is not IE though, it is just unrelated


  24. #49
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Interesting. Yes E1b in general is related to africa, but Ev13 is indo european and mostly absent from africa. I saw many other indo european haplogroups among afro iranians which is probably explained since they entered iran as slaves, like in america where african americans have germanic haplogroups etc.
    From the afro-iranian wiki:
    "During the Qajar dynasty, many wealthy households imported Black African women and children as slaves to perform domestic work. This slave labor was drawn exclusively from the Zanj, who were Bantu-speaking peoples that lived along the coast of the Southeast Africa, in an area roughly comprising modern-day Tanzania, "
    So the slave owners probably passed on Ev13 and other IE haplogroups onto the afro-iranians. For example they also have J2b-m241, a totally non african haplo.
    Here is a short good explanation of why EV13 is associated with Indo-Europeans:
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...-DNA.shtml#V13


    This map shows Hellenistic area in Iran from Karaftu Cave to Nahavand and Kermanshah in the south, ancient Greek inscriptions in this region show that for almost a long time Hellenic people lived there.



    Heracles resides here!

  25. #50
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    My best fit for modern Iranians (in the absence of Saka data) is some Sintashta admixture (say 10%) with a little Srubnaya. Rather than the steppic input to Iran being Scythian, I suspect it represented mainly people retreating from the Easterners, rather than the Scythian product of admixture with them.

    Having said that, Iran is a large and genetically diverse place, and ancestral mixes are likely to differ substantially across its range.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •