Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?

However, looks like zoroastrian absorbed altai culture.

mithraism is an oriental rite, religious and myth overspread in the west spatially among roman empire before christ. te an-tiquity of discovered temples in azerbaijan-iran shows it did ad- vent from atropatene (medes empire) and improved by persian empire. it should not be forgotten its ceremonies is one of the most effective rites that could dominate abrahamic religious and zoroastrianism before overspreading into borders of roman empire when the jesus was not born. its sense of space and form of temples are comprehensible regarding to the sequential tem- ples of zoroastrians, jews, romans, christians and etc [1]

rock-born mithras(credit:Carole Raddato from FRANKFURT, Germany)
Rock-born_Mithras_and_two_altars_dedicated_to_Cautes_%28left%29_and_Cautopates_%28right%29%2C_from_the_Mithraeum_under_Santo_Stefano_Rotondo_in_Rome%2C_from_180_until_192_AD%2C_National_Museum_of_Rome%2C_Baths_of_Diocletian_%2813271201433%29.jpg


okunevo:
Mithraism

5f2475b66efce578514a9113ff7ee531.png


the sacred numberseven te number seven wasthefullest in the manycultures and reli-gions because of connectionwith thecreation story. according tothe holly books`narration; all the universe was created in six days or six stages then the lord spentthe seventh dayto relax.[5], [6]. in many other cultures similar views have been expressed about the creation. ries of mihraism represening by oher reli-gious mithras was the god of the covenant and obligation and mutual faithfulness [7].mithras was born out of a rock in a cave. it re- veals the bull to the ground and sits on its back and plunged the knife into the bull’s shoulder.bull was symbol of terrestrial power. so, rock and soil are holly that caused to build underground rocky temples. also, fire which represents lighting was the symbol of felicity. subsequently, sun- worshiping was another attribute to be recognized. tere was a complex system of seven dignity of initiation with ritual meals that was sacred for mithras worshippers. it was called syndexioi among initiates that “united by the handshake”(figure4)[8]
https://www.academia.edu/11304781/MITHRAISM_AND_ITS_ROLES_ON_THE_FORMATION_OF_RITUAL_ARCHITECTURE
2-dbf19c7305.jpg

khakassia-petroglyph-pleiades.jpg

https://getarumterra.wordpress.com/khakassia-petroglyph-pleiades/
 
pip said:
Perhaps Zoroastrians were a tight-knit community already by the time the R1a steppics arrived, and so were a little more shielded from their genetic influence?
I think by the R1a steppe people, you mean Scythians, in the 7th century BC they conquered northwest of Iran (modern Azarbaijan and Kurdistan provinces), not other lands, Saqqez in Kurdistan is believed to be their political center, the influence of Eastern Iranian culture is certainly stronger in the Kurdish culture than other western Iranian cultures, for example we see Kurdish masi "fish", jin "woman", ... in fact Kurdish is a Scytho-Cimmerian language. Of course it is possible that some elements of Indo-Iranjan culture existed in Maiti (Mede) culture in the 2nd millennium BC too. Some linguists believe the name of Mitanni/Media has an Indo-Iranian origin with the meaning of "mountain".
 
I think by the R1a steppe people, you mean Scythians, in the 7th century BC they conquered northwest of Iran (modern Azarbaijan and Kurdistan provinces), not other lands, Saqqez in Kurdistan is believed to be their political center, the influence of Eastern Iranian culture is certainly stronger in the Kurdish culture than other western Iranian cultures, for example we see Kurdish masi "fish", jin "woman", ... in fact Kurdish is a Scytho-Cimmerian language. Of course it is possible that some elements of Indo-Iranjan culture existed in Maiti (Mede) culture in the 2nd millennium BC too. Some linguists believe the name of Mitanni/Media has an Indo-Iranian origin with the meaning of "mountain".

Cyrus, is there anything Azeri, Afro-Iranians, Kurds, Assyrians, Persians and Yazd Zoroastrians have in common?

I don't know Iran history in depth to have a grasp of the picture. All these people showed up as having EV13 in that Iran Y-dna paper. Did they get it in different waves, or is there a historical undercurrent apparant to you that possibly unites some or all of them?
 
Cyrus, is there anything Azeri, Afro-Iranians, Kurds, Assyrians, Persians and Yazd Zoroastrians have in common?

I don't know Iran history in depth to have a grasp of the picture. All these people showed up as having EV13 in that Iran Y-dna paper. Did they get it in different waves, or is there a historical undercurrent apparant to you that possibly unites some or all of them?

I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.
 
I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.

Interesting. Yes E1b in general is related to africa, but Ev13 is indo european and mostly absent from africa. I saw many other indo european haplogroups among afro iranians which is probably explained since they entered iran as slaves, like in america where african americans have germanic haplogroups etc.

From the afro-iranian wiki:

"During the Qajar dynasty, many wealthy households imported Black African women and children as slaves to perform domestic work. This slave labor was drawn exclusively from the Zanj, who were Bantu-speaking peoples that lived along the coast of the Southeast Africa, in an area roughly comprising modern-day Tanzania, "

So the slave owners probably passed on Ev13 and other IE haplogroups onto the afro-iranians. For example they also have J2b-m241, a totally non african haplo.

Here is a short good explanation of why EV13 is associated with Indo-Europeans:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13
 
Post Indo Aryan and not Turkic would be the Iron Age Saka/Scythians or Parthians. At https://eurasiandna.com/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/ they showed that using qpAdm Kurds can be much better modeled using Chalcolithic Haji-Firuz + Saka than Haji-Firuz + Sintashta.
I don't have comparable data for Saka-TienShan, but other Scythian groups are not a good fit for mainstream modern Iranians on my calculator, although perhaps they fit better with Kurds and some other groups in the region?
 
I think E1b1 is an African haplogroup and Afro-Iranian clearly came from Africa but Azeris, Kurds and Assyrians live in the northwest of Iran, and Persians and Zoroastrians of Yazd live in the Central Iran, it is believed that the city of Yazd was built by Alexander, I think this haplogroup can be related to the Macedonian conquest of Persia.
If the E1b1 is V13, I suspect you are right.
 
If the E1b1 is V13, I suspect you are right.

It is EV13. But I am now also wondering about Iranian J2b-M241 that is also there in Yazd in persians.

If it is L283 and if its TMRCA's also line up with Macedonian conquest then we have a pretty certain confirmation that ancestors of Gege Albanians partook in that conquest possibly as soldiers. If its just another branch that is not IE though, it is just unrelated

TyYAr4t.png
 
Interesting. Yes E1b in general is related to africa, but Ev13 is indo european and mostly absent from africa. I saw many other indo european haplogroups among afro iranians which is probably explained since they entered iran as slaves, like in america where african americans have germanic haplogroups etc.
From the afro-iranian wiki:
"During the Qajar dynasty, many wealthy households imported Black African women and children as slaves to perform domestic work. This slave labor was drawn exclusively from the Zanj, who were Bantu-speaking peoples that lived along the coast of the Southeast Africa, in an area roughly comprising modern-day Tanzania, "
So the slave owners probably passed on Ev13 and other IE haplogroups onto the afro-iranians. For example they also have J2b-m241, a totally non african haplo.
Here is a short good explanation of why EV13 is associated with Indo-Europeans:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


This map shows Hellenistic area in Iran from Karaftu Cave to Nahavand and Kermanshah in the south, ancient Greek inscriptions in this region show that for almost a long time Hellenic people lived there.

10531457308405136696.jpg


Heracles resides here!
 
My best fit for modern Iranians (in the absence of Saka data) is some Sintashta admixture (say 10%) with a little Srubnaya. Rather than the steppic input to Iran being Scythian, I suspect it represented mainly people retreating from the Easterners, rather than the Scythian product of admixture with them.

Having said that, Iran is a large and genetically diverse place, and ancestral mixes are likely to differ substantially across its range.
 
My best fit for modern Iranians (in the absence of Saka data) is some Sintashta admixture (say 10%) with a little Srubnaya. Rather than the steppic input to Iran being Scythian, I suspect it represented mainly people retreating from the Easterners, rather than the Scythian product of admixture with them.

Having said that, Iran is a large and genetically diverse place, and ancestral mixes are likely to differ substantially across its range.

I agree about Iran being genetically diverse place and East Eurasian levels and steppe levels will vary from ethnic group to ethnic group and region to region .

One thing we can be sure of is that modern Iranians in general do have substantially higher east Eurasian levels compared to Chalcolithic Iranians. This is regardless of whether we use dstats, f3s, qpAdm, or even properly designed very low K ADMIXTURE run.

The only uncertainty is how and when they acquired this east Asian admixture. Possibilities include Turkics and Iron Age Steppe nomads. Not sure what the east Asian levels would have been for Parthians .

The confounding issue is that for most Iranians and Kurds I’ve looked at, the East Eurasian appears to be of a SE Asian nature, and as we know AASI has a ton of SE Asian alleles. Thus much of The east Eurasian shown by the dstats and other methods could be AASI related.

Then again some Iranians and Kurds have more of the northeast Asian variety than the southeast Asian variety.
 
One thing we can be sure of is that modern Iranians in general do have substantially higher east Eurasian levels compared to Chalcolithic Iranians. This is regardless of whether we use dstats, f3s, qpAdm, or even properly designed very low K ADMIXTURE run.

The only uncertainty is how and when they acquired this east Asian admixture. Possibilities include Turkics and Iron Age Steppe nomads. Not sure what the east Asian levels would have been for Parthians .

Do you know how much east asian admixture yazidis people has?
Pilgrims_and_festival_at_Lalish_on_the_day_of_the_Ezidi_New_Year_in_2017_18.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._the_day_of_the_Ezidi_New_Year_in_2017_18.jpg

east asian admixture in anatolia:
damgaard-south-asia.jpg
 
Do you know how much east asian admixture yazidis people has?


Not sure, but I'm a project member of EurasianDNA, and they had mentioned to me that using their new SAPDA software that they have recently developed, the total E Eurasian admixture acquired from all ancestral sources for Iranians and Kurds (population averages) was about 11%, and for Zoroastrian Iranians was about 7%. So I would imagine Yazidis would be close to Zorastrian numbers.
 
Etymology of word Zoroaster, Zarethushtrah anyone?
 
I know its current etymology yet could it be from Zaret=Fair+hushtra=Wise, Wisdom. From Persian Hoosh+dar :shocked:
 
E1b1b1c1 was also found among Azeri 9.5% and kurds 13 % from the same research , it surley had a strong presence in northwest iran 😎
 
E1b1b1c1 was also found among Azeri 9.5% and kurds 13 % from the same research , it surley had a strong presence in northwest iran ������
Just like in Europe E1b1b1 is founding lineages in Middle East too yet with different subclades.
 
Yes in Europe it is E-v13
in middle east it is mainly e1b1b1c1-m34 and e- v22 clades
Out of the 30% e1b1b1 they found in Tehran Zoroastrian in this study actuley are:
15% is e-v22
, 7% is e1b1b1c1 -m34
7% is e-m78 (×v22,v13,v12)
 
Zoroastrians of Tehran are most definitely a tiny minority of the population that in the last centuries could only maintain their particular religion by becoming increasingly endogamous. In such a situation it is no wonder that the already unsurprising and often intense effects of genetic drift of Y-DNA lineages will become even a lot more accelerated and pronounced, so that an originally minor lineage can increase steeply in frequency or a major lineage may decrease astoundingly in frequency by completely randomic processes, given that the present population derives from a small group of particularly resistant people, and within this small community some lineages might have been much more successful than others. That happens all the time in Y-DNA haplogroups, especially among small minority groups.
 
What if Zoroastrianism started as a BMAC reaction to Andronovo migrations?

could be i like your direction of thinking :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex



1. I4156 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan G

2. I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J

3. I4157 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J2a

4. I4159 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J2a1

5. I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (3465±20 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan L1a

6. I4315 1609-1465 calBCE (3255±15 BP, PSUAMS-2518) BMAC Dzharkutan Uzbekistan R1b1



8. I2085 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan E1b1b1

9. I2128 2198-2036 calBCE (3720±20 BP, PSUAMS-2316) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan J

10. I1784 2201-2031 calBCE (3720±30 BP, Poz-83485) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan J1

11. I2087 2196-2034 calBCE (3715±20 BP, PSUAMS-2335) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan R

12. I1781 2009-1772 calBCE (3550±30 BP, PSUAMS-2065) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan T

13. I7420 2000-1600 BCE BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan G2a2a

14. I7421 1931-1767 calBCE (3525±25 BP, PSUAMS-3120) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan J2a

15. I7494 2010-1883 calBCE (3575±20 BP, PSUAMS-3230) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan J2a1

16. I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (3430±25 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan L1a

17. I7419 1881-1701 calBCE (3475±20 BP, PSUAMS-3229) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan R2a

18. I7492 1971-1782 calBCE (3560±20 BP, PSUAMS-3121) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan R2a

source
:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1



i see here r2a not r1a .....
 

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