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Thread: Why Zoroastrians (Tehran) have no R1a?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    My best fit for modern Iranians (in the absence of Saka data) is some Sintashta admixture (say 10%) with a little Srubnaya. Rather than the steppic input to Iran being Scythian, I suspect it represented mainly people retreating from the Easterners, rather than the Scythian product of admixture with them.

    Having said that, Iran is a large and genetically diverse place, and ancestral mixes are likely to differ substantially across its range.
    I agree about Iran being genetically diverse place and East Eurasian levels and steppe levels will vary from ethnic group to ethnic group and region to region .

    One thing we can be sure of is that modern Iranians in general do have substantially higher east Eurasian levels compared to Chalcolithic Iranians. This is regardless of whether we use dstats, f3s, qpAdm, or even properly designed very low K ADMIXTURE run.

    The only uncertainty is how and when they acquired this east Asian admixture. Possibilities include Turkics and Iron Age Steppe nomads. Not sure what the east Asian levels would have been for Parthians .

    The confounding issue is that for most Iranians and Kurds I’ve looked at, the East Eurasian appears to be of a SE Asian nature, and as we know AASI has a ton of SE Asian alleles. Thus much of The east Eurasian shown by the dstats and other methods could be AASI related.

    Then again some Iranians and Kurds have more of the northeast Asian variety than the southeast Asian variety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    One thing we can be sure of is that modern Iranians in general do have substantially higher east Eurasian levels compared to Chalcolithic Iranians. This is regardless of whether we use dstats, f3s, qpAdm, or even properly designed very low K ADMIXTURE run.

    The only uncertainty is how and when they acquired this east Asian admixture. Possibilities include Turkics and Iron Age Steppe nomads. Not sure what the east Asian levels would have been for Parthians .
    Do you know how much east asian admixture yazidis people has?

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...in_2017_18.jpg

    east asian admixture in anatolia:

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Do you know how much east asian admixture yazidis people has?

    Not sure, but I'm a project member of EurasianDNA, and they had mentioned to me that using their new SAPDA software that they have recently developed, the total E Eurasian admixture acquired from all ancestral sources for Iranians and Kurds (population averages) was about 11%, and for Zoroastrian Iranians was about 7%. So I would imagine Yazidis would be close to Zorastrian numbers.

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    Etymology of word Zoroaster, Zarethushtrah anyone?

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    I know its current etymology yet could it be from Zaret=Fair+hushtra=Wise, Wisdom. From Persian Hoosh+dar

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    E1b1b1c1 was also found among Azeri 9.5% and kurds 13 % from the same research , it surley had a strong presence in northwest iran 😎

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    E1b1b1c1 was also found among Azeri 9.5% and kurds 13 % from the same research , it surley had a strong presence in northwest iran ������
    Just like in Europe E1b1b1 is founding lineages in Middle East too yet with different subclades.

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    Yes in Europe it is E-v13
    in middle east it is mainly e1b1b1c1-m34 and e- v22 clades
    Out of the 30% e1b1b1 they found in Tehran Zoroastrian in this study actuley are:
    15% is e-v22
    , 7% is e1b1b1c1 -m34
    7% is e-m78 (×v22,v13,v12)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Zoroastrians of Tehran are most definitely a tiny minority of the population that in the last centuries could only maintain their particular religion by becoming increasingly endogamous. In such a situation it is no wonder that the already unsurprising and often intense effects of genetic drift of Y-DNA lineages will become even a lot more accelerated and pronounced, so that an originally minor lineage can increase steeply in frequency or a major lineage may decrease astoundingly in frequency by completely randomic processes, given that the present population derives from a small group of particularly resistant people, and within this small community some lineages might have been much more successful than others. That happens all the time in Y-DNA haplogroups, especially among small minority groups.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    No idea but rest assured Zoroastrianism spread with Eastern Iranian R1a
    What if Zoroastrianism started as a BMAC reaction to Andronovo migrations?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by aleph View Post
    What if Zoroastrianism started as a BMAC reaction to Andronovo migrations?
    could be i like your direction of thinking :)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex



    1. I4156 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan G

    2. I4899 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J

    3. I4157 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J2a

    4. I4159 1600-1300 BCE BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan J2a1

    5. I5604 1880-1697 calBCE (3465±20 BP, PSUAMS-2774) BMAC Bustan Uzbekistan L1a

    6. I4315 1609-1465 calBCE (3255±15 BP, PSUAMS-2518) BMAC Dzharkutan Uzbekistan R1b1



    8. I2085 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan E1b1b1

    9. I2128 2198-2036 calBCE (3720±20 BP, PSUAMS-2316) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan J

    10. I1784 2201-2031 calBCE (3720±30 BP, Poz-83485) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan J1

    11. I2087 2196-2034 calBCE (3715±20 BP, PSUAMS-2335) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan R

    12. I1781 2009-1772 calBCE (3550±30 BP, PSUAMS-2065) BMAC Gonur Turkmenistan T

    13. I7420 2000-1600 BCE BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan G2a2a

    14. I7421 1931-1767 calBCE (3525±25 BP, PSUAMS-3120) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan J2a

    15. I7494 2010-1883 calBCE (3575±20 BP, PSUAMS-3230) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan J2a1

    16. I4285 1873-1661 calBCE (3430±25 BP, PSUAMS-2536) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan L1a

    17. I7419 1881-1701 calBCE (3475±20 BP, PSUAMS-3229) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan R2a

    18. I7492 1971-1782 calBCE (3560±20 BP, PSUAMS-3121) BMAC Sappali Tepe Uzbekistan R2a

    source
    :
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1



    i see here r2a not r1a .....

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I think there was some R2a in Iran neolithic remains and as far as the R1b is concerned, it could have come from interactions with Afanasievo/Okunevo people.

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    It is interesting to read it: http://indiafacts.org/interview-with...-aryan-debate/

    The absurdity of Tony Joseph’s genetic claims can be judged from his claims about R1a1, which he describes as the “genetic signature” of the “Aryans”: “how do we know that R1a and its subgroups are linked to Indo-European language speakers in India? There is an easy way to check: look at the distribution of R1a among Indian population groups and see if they are linked to the traditional custodians of the Sanskrit language, the upper castes in general or the Brahmins in particular” (p.167). The Brahmins are the custodians of “Sanskrit” as also of “texts written in Sanskrit“. Ironically, R1a1 is found in much higher or comparatively similar percentage in non-Brahmin castes like Khatris (67%) and Gujarat Lohanas (60%), and even in non-Aryan speakers like the Manipuri people of the east (50%) and purely Dravidian tribes of the South like the Chenchu (26%) and Kota (23%), as compared with most Brahmin communities: the Iyengars have 31%. The endogamous “Aryan” Parsis in India and the endogamous Zoroastrians still in Iran, “the traditional custodians of the Avestan language“, have less than 20% (many Iranian groups going as low as 0-3%), while the non-“Aryan” Semites to their west include the Shammar Arabs in Kuwait (43%) and the Ashkenazi Levites of Israel (52%): the Ashkenazi Levites are “the traditional custodians of the Hebrew Old Testament text and language“!
    I think this myth of R1a and Aryans should be forgotten.

    Some Mitanni inscriptions have been discovered recently in Iraq, it is possible they say some new things about Indo-Aryan culture in this land.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is interesting to read it: http://indiafacts.org/interview-with...-aryan-debate/



    I think this myth of R1a and Aryans should be forgotten.

    Some Mitanni inscriptions have been discovered recently in Iraq, it is possible they say some new things about Indo-Aryan culture in this land.
    Most r1a speak indo european languages though. It’s most ancient samples are around the Pontic caspian steppe and they uphold the most archaic forms of indo European substrate. If they’re not indo Europeans what are they?

    also I don’t think anyone calls all R1a as Aryan. The Aryans are tied to the Indo Aryan Z93. It’s inportant to remember here that even this line spread from Eastern Europe and genetically were probably made of of similar genetic origin as Z280 and M458 prior to their expansion east and into India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran
    Most r1a speak indo european languages though. It’s most ancient samples are around the Pontic caspian steppe and they uphold the most archaic forms of indo European substrate. If they’re not indo Europeans what are they?
    also I don’t think anyone calls all R1a as Aryan. The Aryans are tied to the Indo Aryan Z93. It’s inportant to remember here that even this line spread from Eastern Europe and genetically were probably made of of similar genetic origin as Z280 and M458 prior to their expansion east and into India.
    R1a is actually the main haplogroup of Uralic and Altaic people, some of them adopted an Indo-European culture but most of them preserved their own culture, Z93 has the highest frequency in the South Siberian Altai region of Russia.
    If Indo-Iranian originally lived in the Uralic and Altaic lands, we should certainly find many proto-Uralic and proto-Altaic words in this language but we can't find almost any word from those languages in Indo-Iranian, but there are certainly many Indo-Iranian words in those languages, especially proto-Uralic, it shows either Indo-Iranians migrated from south Asia to modern Russia, not vice versa, or they lived there too earlier than Uralic and Altaic people, probably in the 5th millennium BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think this myth of R1a and Aryans should be forgotten.
    The only common component in the autosomal DNA of Iranian-speaking populations is
    European - principally North East European. If the apparently North East European originators of the Iranian languages were not partly of R1a origin, to which other North East European paternal haplogroup could they have belonged?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The only common component in the autosomal DNA of Iranian-speaking populations is
    European - principally North East European. If the apparently North East European originators of the Iranian languages were not partly of R1a origin, to which other North East European paternal haplogroup could they have belonged?
    Why North East European? The main Haplogroup of western Iranian-speaking people (Cimmerians) was R1b, they certainly migrated from Europe but Central/Southeast Europe, those who lived in East/Northeast Europe were mostly Scytho-Sarmatians.

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    Pip is referring to autosomal DNA, not solely Y-DNA. Conflating the two is going to cause some misunderstandings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Why North East European? The main Haplogroup of western Iranian-speaking people (Cimmerians) was R1b, they certainly migrated from Europe but Central/Southeast Europe, those who lived in East/Northeast Europe were mostly Scytho-Sarmatians.
    North East because that's where the samples best fit autosomally (Czech, Polish, Swedish) - all R1a1a1b or associated with R1a1a1b.
    Which subclades of R1b are you suggesting? (R1b was very diverse by then) Weren't Cimmerians similar autosomally to Sarmatians? (Too North East Asia influenced to be a substantial contributor to Iranians?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    North East because that's where the samples best fit autosomally (Czech, Polish, Swedish) - all R1a1a1b or associated with R1a1a1b.
    Which subclades of R1b are you suggesting? (R1b was very diverse by then) Weren't Cimmerians similar autosomally to Sarmatians? (Too North East Asia influenced to be a substantial contributor to Iranians?)
    R1a1a1b has a very low frequency in Iran but R1b1a1a2a in the northwest to the southwest of Iran where Cimmerians (Persians) lived, has a high frequency. Sarmatians were an eastern Iranian people, they originally lived in the Central Asia. As said in another thread, Cimmerians (Persians) were originally a Thracian or Illyrian people who adopted an Iranian language, we see very different sound changes in eastern and western Iranian languages, for example Persian bištan and Avestan duuaēθā have the same Iranian origin: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...European/dwey-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    R1a1a1b has a very low frequency in Iran but R1b1a1a2a in the northwest to the southwest of Iran where Cimmerians (Persians) lived, has a high frequency. Sarmatians were an eastern Iranian people, they originally lived in the Central Asia. As said in another thread, Cimmerians (Persians) were originally a Thracian or Illyrian people who adopted an Iranian language, we see very different sound changes in eastern and western Iranian languages, for example Persian bištan and Avestan duuaēθā have the same Iranian origin: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...European/dwey-
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3346985

    2 Cimmerians in the North Pontic Steppe were R1a as well though, so why exclude them and pretend they didn't have R1a? Because its not convenient for your agenda?

    "Most of the male ancients, including two Cimmerians from the North Pontic steppe, in what is now Ukraine, belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a.Out of the 31 samples of this study, 16 are male, and with sufficient Y-chromosome coverage for haplogroup assignment (Table S2). R1a (43%) and I (27%) are the two most frequent Y- chromosome hgs in present-day Ukrainians [142]. R1a is also the predominant lineage among Cimmerians, Scy_Ukr and ScySar_SU in our data, and present among Scy_Kaz as well. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3346985

    2 Cimmerians in the North Pontic Steppe were R1a as well though, so why exclude them and pretend they didn't have R1a? Because its not convenient for your agenda?

    "Most of the male ancients, including two Cimmerians from the North Pontic steppe, in what is now Ukraine, belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a.Out of the 31 samples of this study, 16 are male, and with sufficient Y-chromosome coverage for haplogroup assignment (Table S2). R1a (43%) and I (27%) are the two most frequent Y- chromosome hgs in present-day Ukrainians [142]. R1a is also the predominant lineage among Cimmerians, Scy_Ukr and ScySar_SU in our data, and present among Scy_Kaz as well. "
    I really don't know why you insist that Iranian haplogroup is just R1a, whereas this haplogroup has a very low frequency in the lands that we know certain Iranian-speaking people, like Persians, lived. It is not really clear that all ancient Scythians and Cimmerians spoke Iranian or not, but ancient Persians were certainly an Iranian-speaking people, so Iranian haplogroup should be related to them, not some unknown people.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I really don't know why you insist that Iranian haplogroup is just R1a, whereas this haplogroup has a very low frequency in the lands that we know certain Iranian-speaking people, like Persians, lived. It is not really clear that all ancient Scythians and Cimmerians spoke Iranian or not, but ancient Persians were certainly an Iranian-speaking people, so Iranian haplogroup should be related to them, not some unknown people.
    The Scythians who were in contact with the Greeks were definitely Eastern Iranian speaking tribes, however within the Scytho-Siberian sphere it's not clear exactly how widespread East Iranian languages were. It's pretty clear that R1a has something to with Iranian speaking groups whether you wish to accept that or not is up to you (and clearly you won't accept it because it doesn't support your theory).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The Scythians who were in contact with the Greeks were definitely Eastern Iranian speaking tribes, however within the Scytho-Siberian sphere it's not clear exactly how widespread East Iranian languages were. It's pretty clear that R1a has something to with Iranian speaking groups whether you wish to accept that or not is up to you (and clearly you won't accept it because it doesn't support your theory).
    These are geneticists, not me, who say Iran is the source of R1a, not its destination, if you believe another thing, please prove it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    These are geneticists, not me, who say Iran is the source of R1a, not its destination, if you believe another thing, please prove it.
    The source of R1a isn't relevant to this issue, as it originated tens of thousands of years beforehand. Likewise, generalisations about what R1a or R1b was or did in the 1st millennium BC are meaningless, as both had branched out all over the place and were very diverse by then. They didn't divide themselves according to basic DNA haplogroups, and stick to populations bearing only these haplogroups over many tens of thousands of years

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