tyuiopman said:How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?
I don't see any genetic or linguistic evidence which supports it, if you know please tell me.
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tyuiopman said:How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?
How is Indo-Iranian migration to Iran a myth? Isn't it supported by the genetic and linguistic records?
I don't see any genetic or linguistic evidence which supports it, if you know please tell me.
tyuiopman said:The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.
I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!
The entire migration of Indo-Aryans from the eastern Steppes. Shintashta and Andronovo. It's super widely accepted.
I'm actually really curious what your alternate theories are though. I'd sincerely like to hear them!
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-westernpoland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture.
abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.
Ah, yes n=13, definitive of so much.
I think theres been several migrations to Persia, Aria(Herat), Bactria, Gandhara of people from Steppe now which one belong to which sub-cultural group has became complicated by Genetic studies of the last decade, previously there existed only Indo-Iranians yet now genetics has shown there were several tribes who came from several sources in the steppe(Cimmerians, Andronovo, Sintashta,...) I think people from Andronovo gave rise to Avestan languages, Cimmerians or other Steppe cultures gave rise to Persian Languages.
I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?No in the last 2,000 years there were actually several migrations of ethnically non-Indo-Iranian people to Afghanistan, Pakistan and North India, from the Kushans and Hephthalites to Khaljis, Timurids and Mughals, haplogroup R1a-Z93 relates to these people who originally lived in the lands where ancient DNA evidences of this haplogroup has been found. In Iran R1a-Z93 mostly relates to Turko-Mongol people, except a few years after the Safavid era, there is absolutely no evidence of the presence of a people from Afghanistan/Pakistan/India in Iran.
I think later Kushans had little impact bringing Ydna Q, C, R to the region yet ancient steppe migrations in 1700s BC had bigger impact this according to Southasia paper. The old steppe migration + I.neolithic had the biggest impact to regions ethnography, but yes later Turkic peoples too were very active in this region later on. So to sum it up first West asians(I.Neo, I.Farmers) came to this(Afghanistan, Southasia, C.asia) region bringing Ydna hgs J2, G, T some R1b then Steppe people came bringing more R, some J2, Q ydna hgs, much later Turkics came too in large numbers bringing more or less the same C.Asian ydna hgs. But Persia is very intriguing because they migrated from N.Caucasus not C.Asia to Western\Northern Persia then which culture introduced Avestan, Zoroasterianism to the region?
As you probably know according to Avesta, Tehran (ancient Rhages) is the holiest Zoroastrian city and the most ancient Zoroastrian sites exist in this city, with no doubt Zoroastrians of Tehran are the oldest religious community of Iran, but why they have no R1a?
Do you have any more in depth information about which clades of J2 and E1b1b1 these zoroastranians belong to?
There is no doubt that Indo-Iranians migrated to the South Asia but not in 1700 BC, in this period we see a strong influence of Indo-Aryan subbranch of Indo-Iranian in the Hurrian culture of Mitanni in Syria, also the influence of proto-Iranian language in the early languages of eastern Europe, like proto-Baltic, for example look at this word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spo�s#Latvian Arkaim in Russia is clearly an ancient Iranian site, many elements of Zoroastrian culture can be seen there, in the 3rd millennium BC proto-Iranians from Afghanistan migrated to Russia and Eastern Europe and from there they came to Iran in the 1st millennium BC.
E1b1b1a1a (7.7%)
E1b1b1a1b (7.7%)
E1b1b1c1 (15.4%)
J2a3 (23.1)
J2a3h (15.4)
The interesting point about E1b1b1c1 is that it can be seen just among Zoroastrians (Tehran), Zoroastrians (Yazd), Persians (Persia) and Arabs (Khuzestan).
Another interesting point is that the main subclade of R1b among Zoroastrians (Tehran) is M269, unlike all other people in Iran who have mostly L23, ancient Rhages/Europos (Modern Tehran) is actually the only city in Iran which has been mentioned in Avesta, all other known cities are in modern Turkmenistan and Afghanistan.
I think you meant Indo-Iranians, Iranians are not an Indo-Aryan people.
As I have said in some other threads in this forum, I believe the main Iranian people who migrated to Iran were Cimmerians (Persians) who came through the Caucasus and Anatolia in the 1st millennium BC. Their main haplogroups are J2 and R1b, other than Zoroastrians, we see Persians in Persia (modern Fars) have also a very low frequency of R1a (about 4%), whenas we know Persia was the center of Iranian culture in Iran.
It is meaningless to say Afghans and Tajiks who adopted Persian culture are genetically Iranian but Persians in Persia are not!
I agree that, autosomally, Iranians do not look at all an Indo-Aryan people. My calculations estimate that they are (i) first and foremost, of Caucasus origin
My calculations estimate
I don't disagree with you. It's a statistical calculator of autosomal combinations from prior populations. It gives a most likely estimate of Bronze Age drift from the West, especially North West, into older Iranian DNA - an admixture, not a replacement. It estimates the steppic intrusion was a smaller, later wave from Central Asia - post-IndoAryan, but not Turkic.I don't think so because there is an increasing gradient of Central Asian related ancestry as you go from the Caucasus into Iran (BMAC, E Asian, Gedrosian, and the like). The flow of these components is East to West or South to North and not visa versa.
Although Iranians do harbor a sizeable percentage of indigenous Zagrosian related herder ancestry, there is a heavy shift in autosomal and uniparental components towards Central Asia when you compare those Chalcolithic Zagrosians with modern Iranians.
What exactly do you mean. Can you elaborate on specifically what type of calculations you have done.
Post Indo Aryan and not Turkic would be the Iron Age Saka/Scythians or Parthians. At https://eurasiandna.com/impact-of-the-iron-age-saka-and-scythians-on-south-west-asian-demography/ they showed that using qpAdm Kurds can be much better modeled using Chalcolithic Haji-Firuz + Saka than Haji-Firuz + Sintashta.I don't disagree with you. It's a statistical calculator of autosomal combinations from prior populations. It gives a most likely estimate of Bronze Age drift from the West, especially North West, into older Iranian DNA - an admixture, not a replacement. It estimates the steppic intrusion was a smaller, later wave from Central Asia - post-IndoAryan, but not Turkic.
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