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Thread: The Genetic history of Crete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Turks in Greece should show Turkic (Central Asian-Siberian / East Asian) results. The Turks in Bulgaria show that. One of sample is my dad.

    His Turkic percent 50% percent less than West Anatolian my mom. But his percent still double/triple than any other Balkan nations
    I think Western Turks were always genetically closer to southern Balkans than to Eastern Turkey. Its my opinion, nothing scientific

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I think Western Turks were always genetically closer to southern Balkans than to Eastern Turkey. Its my opinion, nothing scientific
    Turks are mixed ball, so the only way to find who is a Turk (I am not talking about Turkic) is finding between 4-5% till 10-15% East Asian structure is in people of Balkans and Neareast.

    Yes, you are right. West Turks in Anatolia is more close to Balkans than averange Kurdish or Turkish from the East. But also West Turks have more East Asian structure than East.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Granted. But, as Salento pointed out above, when the first line of your paper runs "The medieval history of several populations often suffers from scarcity of contemporary records", it's hard to imagine why Minoan DNA should be referred to, except as implicit background reference.
    well, if they want to check migratory medieval impacts on DNA, the best is to run ancient DNA as a kind of departure base, even if the Minoan samples would not be the better as Dorian, Roman and Anatolian DNA might be added.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis 22h22 hours ago



    This work started before we published the first genome-wide data from Bronze Age Crete (doi: 10.1038/nature23310) which showed that the Minoan population of the island did not yet have the affinity to Central/Eastern Europe which contributes some ancestry of present-day Cretans.


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    i cluster with Cretans in some eurogenes calculators second population for me after ashkenazi in that order
    some of them score 10% baltic in eurogenes k13 like me
    that is the main element that push my total autosomal genome to resemble cretans more than sicilians :)
    thanks for sharing angela nice study :)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It's good to finally put to rest the whole question of the relationship between Sicilians/Peloponnesians/Cretans.

    As I tried to explain over and over again, a lot of the misunderstanding had to do with the fact that comparisons were being made with Greeks from around Thessaloniki (old Salonika).

    By using Peloponnesians, who, after all, provided a lot of the migration to Southern Italy and Sicily, we can see the overlap with Sicilians, and we can also see the overlap with Crete, meaning there is not in fact this huge divide between mainland Greece and Crete.

    I also find it amusing that after hundreds of thousands of posts on how different Sicilians from different parts of the island were from one another, they all nestle quite nicely within the Cretan cluster. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    @Big Snake or any other guys, in Pontus Region-Turkey some of the Greeks accepted Islam and stayed in Turkey. Is there any source for Cretean Muslims? Became Chrisitanzied and stayed in Crete?
    No Cretan Turks, either locals that converted to Islam or imported from Anatolia migrated to Turkey.

    It was very hard if not impossible for a Muslim to convert to Christianity under the Ottoman Empire. Converting to Islam was incentivized by lower taxes, serving in the army, gathering of kids and converting them to Islam. Converting back was totally discouraged under penalty of death.

    Now if some Cretan Muslims stayed behind in Greece and then converted to Christianity, that was definitely allowed under Greek laws. I am not aware of any large numbers of conversions though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how much more clearly the authors could have put it. Those three areas show less influence from anyone. It's isolation and then drift.

    As for the "there must be Turkish" blood in Greece, Albania and other countries", bigsnake I'm sure knows better than I do, so if I go wrong, he may, of course, correct me, but this is my understanding:

    By the time of the Ottoman take over, they were Muslim, and the inhabitants were Christian of one variety or another.

    It boggles the imagination that an Ottoman family would allow their daughters to abjure their faith, turn apostate, and go marry a Christian Greek and live in that community. If a Christian Greek male wished to marry a Muslim girl, he would need to convert, be circumcised, and become part of the Ottoman community, and when they left he and his progeny would be part of the group going into exile.

    Now, I think a Christian girl could become a wife or concubine to a Turk, and could then even keep her Christian faith, but her children would then become part of the Ottoman society.

    From what I've read there was no such thing as "civil marriage"; marriages were performed by a holy man or teacher of that particular faith. A Christian and a Muslim couldn't marry without one of them converting or at least the ceremony being performed by either a Christian priest or a Muslim officiate.

    So, if anything, I think there is Balkan ancestry in Ottoman Turks, but I don't see how it could have happened the other way around, except perhaps where whole groups converted to Islam, as many Albanians did. I don't know if in that case intermarriage did occur between Albanian Muslims and Muslims from Turkey, and if it did whether they went into exile back to Turkey or not.
    Very well put Angela, see Yetos' post for more details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Turks in Greece should show Turkic (Central Asian-Siberian / East Asian) results. The Turks in Bulgaria show that. One of sample is my dad.

    His Turkic percent 50% percent less than West Anatolian my mom. But his percent still double/triple than any other Balkan nations
    It depends on where the Turks still remaining in Greece came from. Were they from deep Anatolia that has a higher Turkic genetic content or from Western Anatolia that has lower Turkic content or locals that got Islamized or all three combined. I am not aware of any large scale genetic studies of the Turks in Western Thrace but would love to be directed to one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Now if some Cretan Muslims stayed behind in Greece and then converted to Christianity, that was definitely allowed under Greek laws. I am not aware of any large numbers of conversions though.
    Yeah this is what I am asking. Greek Kingdom rule during the population exchange period. Turks who didn't want to their own village.

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    Who was settled mostly the placed where were left by Cretean Turks? Greeks from Pontus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Who was settled mostly the placed where were left by Cretean Turks? Greeks from Pontus?
    I will have to investigate it. I had seen a study somewhere and I should have bookmarked it. If I remember correctly the numbers were pretty low. 10-20,000 sounds about right.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Iosif Lazaridis@iosif_lazaridis 22h22 hours ago



    This work started before we published the first genome-wide data from Bronze Age Crete (doi: 10.1038/nature23310) which showed that the Minoan population of the island did not yet have the affinity to Central/Eastern Europe which contributes some ancestry of present-day Cretans.
    so basicaly the authors are yet anchored in XX century? it sounds to me like an excuse, a work two years old can be processed quickly after acceptation of the paper, or even they could stop publication. I would prefer to deal with lack of knowledge than with children like reactions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how much more clearly the authors could have put it. Those three areas show less influence from anyone. It's isolation and then drift.

    As for the "there must be Turkish" blood in Greece, Albania and other countries", bigsnake I'm sure knows better than I do, so if I go wrong, he may, of course, correct me, but this is my understanding:

    By the time of the Ottoman take over, they were Muslim, and the inhabitants were Christian of one variety or another.

    It boggles the imagination that an Ottoman family would allow their daughters to abjure their faith, turn apostate, and go marry a Christian Greek and live in that community. If a Christian Greek male wished to marry a Muslim girl, he would need to convert, be circumcised, and become part of the Ottoman community, and when they left he and his progeny would be part of the group going into exile.

    Now, I think a Christian girl could become a wife or concubine to a Turk, and could then even keep her Christian faith, but her children would then become part of the Ottoman society.

    From what I've read there was no such thing as "civil marriage"; marriages were performed by a holy man or teacher of that particular faith. A Christian and a Muslim couldn't marry without one of them converting or at least the ceremony being performed by either a Christian priest or a Muslim officiate.

    So, if anything, I think there is Balkan ancestry in Ottoman Turks, but I don't see how it could have happened the other way around, except perhaps where whole groups converted to Islam, as many Albanians did. I don't know if in that case intermarriage did occur between Albanian Muslims and Muslims from Turkey, and if it did whether they went into exile back to Turkey or not.
    There are Turks (and even Anatolian Greeks) who suggest that there is a genetic Turkish imprint on the mainland. Most mainland Greeks (including my own family) lived in isolated communities and had no genetic interaction with invading populations (including Turks). If you look at the autosmal results of mainland Greeks there is nothing to suggest even a remote connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how much more clearly the authors could have put it. Those three areas show less influence from anyone. It's isolation and then drift.

    As for the "there must be Turkish" blood in Greece, Albania and other countries", bigsnake I'm sure knows better than I do, so if I go wrong, he may, of course, correct me, but this is my understanding:

    By the time of the Ottoman take over, they were Muslim, and the inhabitants were Christian of one variety or another.

    It boggles the imagination that an Ottoman family would allow their daughters to abjure their faith, turn apostate, and go marry a Christian Greek and live in that community. If a Christian Greek male wished to marry a Muslim girl, he would need to convert, be circumcised, and become part of the Ottoman community, and when they left he and his progeny would be part of the group going into exile.

    Now, I think a Christian girl could become a wife or concubine to a Turk, and could then even keep her Christian faith, but her children would then become part of the Ottoman society.

    From what I've read there was no such thing as "civil marriage"; marriages were performed by a holy man or teacher of that particular faith. A Christian and a Muslim couldn't marry without one of them converting or at least the ceremony being performed by either a Christian priest or a Muslim officiate.

    So, if anything, I think there is Balkan ancestry in Ottoman Turks, but I don't see how it could have happened the other way around, except perhaps where whole groups converted to Islam, as many Albanians did. I don't know if in that case intermarriage did occur between Albanian Muslims and Muslims from Turkey, and if it did whether they went into exile back to Turkey or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's good to finally put to rest the whole question of the relationship between Sicilians/Peloponnesians/Cretans.

    As I tried to explain over and over again, a lot of the misunderstanding had to do with the fact that comparisons were being made with Greeks from around Thessaloniki (old Salonika).

    By using Peloponnesians, who, after all, provided a lot of the migration to Southern Italy and Sicily, we can see the overlap with Sicilians, and we can also see the overlap with Crete, meaning there is not in fact this huge divide between mainland Greece and Crete.

    I also find it amusing that after hundreds of thousands of posts on how different Sicilians from different parts of the island were from one another, they all nestle quite nicely within the Cretan cluster. :)
    Yes but what separates Peloponnesians from Cretans is the minor Slavic genetic imprint (Slavic incursions of the 6th and 7th Century) with the exception of deep Mani and isolated Tskanonian regions of Aracadia.

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    It might be offtopic as it concerns mainly the town dwellers but I found this paper very interesting also with the picture of the interactions between the locals and the new elite and change of ethnic (and confessional) affiliations:


    INHERITED STATUS AND SLAVERY IN LATE MEDIEVAL ITALY AND VENETIAN CRETE*
    Author(s): Sally McKee Source: Past & Present, No. 182 (Feb., 2004), pp. 31-53 Published by: Oxford University Press on behalf of The Past and Present Society


    It stands to reason,
    also, that female slaves as sexual partners and the children they
    produced were more widespread than even the considerable
    numbers in the records indicate. The evidence from Venetian
    Crete tends strongly to suggest not only that men maintained
    long-term relationships with servile women, but that they had
    even longer ones with the children produced by such unions. As
    noted before, illegitimate children by slave women show up as
    beneficiaries in wills and as active parties in notarial documents.
    That they are not hard to find testifies to their acknowledged
    presence in society and perhaps in the sentiments of their fathers...

    .............
    At the highest and lowest levels of society, there were those
    whose claims to be Latin threatened to blur the boundaries
    established by the authorities. At the highest, recognition as a
    Latin meant access to wealth. At the lowest level, it meant free-
    dom. Their claims, therefore, needed substantiation. For the
    people of the middling social rank living in the city of Candia,
    no great advantage accrued from claiming to be Latin. And so
    it comes as no surprise that, on that social level, discerning the
    ancestry of the skilled and unskilled labourers of Candia in the
    sources is almost impossible, and probably it was not parti-
    cularly clear to the people themselves of that time, since inter-
    marriage at that social level was very common..
    ............
    Because there were both sanctioned (by marriage) and
    unsanctioned (concubinage) unions between the members of
    the different communities at all levels of society, determining
    who was or was not Latin became a problem that had to be
    solved through the imposition of standards of proof. Most
    people fell relatively easily into one community or the other,
    depending on their families' social rank and political allegiance.
    The increasing number of illegitimate children of mixed par-
    entage, however, meant that a growing proportion of the popu-
    lation wished to but could not assign itself to the group most
    desirable from the point of view of rights and privliges...
    .............
    Three types of legal status existed in Venetian Crete. The
    unfree peasantry, who resided in and toiled upon the great agri-
    cultural estates throughout the island, constituted the villeins,
    who were Greek-speaking adherents of the Eastern Church
    whose ancestors had once served Byzantine masters under the
    label of paroikoi. Slave status applied to those men and women
    who had been brought by merchants to the island, where they
    were bought either by residents in the colony or by merchants
    from elsewhere to be exported elsewhere. In the first half of the
    fourteenth century, the majority of slaves were Christian
    Greeks captured in Asia Minor, mainland Greece or the
    Aegean islands. The end of the century witnessed the replace-
    ment of Greek slaves by more and more people from the Black
    Sea region: Tatars, Circassians, Bulgars, Turks, Russians and
    others. Finally, free status constituted the only other legal con-
    dition recognized in Crete, although the free population of
    the colony itself was certainly economically and politically
    stratified.
    Only one status was coextensive with an ancestral group: the
    Latins...

    ..................
    But conversion to the Roman rite did not suffice to win a slave
    or a villein's freedom. Claiming to be the child of a Latin
    father, however, did. The colonial administration's attempts to
    devise standards of establishing Latin ancestry came far too late
    to be effective or meaningful, since the population had been
    sexually mixing from the colony's birth in spite of ban on
    marriages between Latins and Greeks. The important point is
    that such standards were devised only because the lines be-
    tween the two ancestral groups were becoming blurred at the
    highest and lowest levels of society where property and legal
    capacity were at stake...

    ...But other evidence, like the case involving
    Pietro Porco's sons makes clear that at some point in the first
    decades of the fourteenth cen-
    tury free status began to descend automatically to the children
    Latin men had by slave women. In 1271 Bellamore Rosso, a resi-
    dent of Candia, had drawn up an instrument of manumission for
    his son Bonaventura by his slave woman Bona.
    Within thirty years, the situation had changed. Among the
    approximately eight hundred wills that survive from the four-
    teenth century many were made by testators who looked to the
    future of their slaves and the children they had by them.
    Although numerous men freed slave women in their wills, none
    of them freed the sons and daughters they had by them. Nor in
    the wills of relatives left in charge of those children is there any
    indication that before dying the fathers had formally manumitted
    them. The children are all assumed to be free...
    Something from the paper torzio gave in his post:
    Based on the age of the R1b-associated Y-STR variation for the Crete-without-Lasithi-Plateau population,the genetic affinity between R1b haplogroups from North Italy and Crete might be the imprints of an Italian geneflow before the end of the Minoan civilization and/or more recent migrations during the Roman and Venetian ruling periods. Finally, it is possible that the more recent age for the R1b-associated Y-STR variation in the Lasithi Plateau population as compared with the estimate for the rest of eastern Crete could have resulted from population bottle-necks in the mountain plain. Alternatively, these lineages might have been introduced to the Lasithi highland plain long after their presence in other regions of the island...
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ghland_plateau


    I could not find concrete numbers on the proportion of slaves on Crete during the centuries of Venetian rule. Some other papers report serious numbers of slaves on Mallorca (up to 36% at some point) but I could not find any specific data for Crete (and the paper describes mainly city dwellers).

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    It might be offtopic as it concerns mainly the town dwellers but I found this paper very interesting also with the picture of the interactions between the locals and the new elite and change of ethnic (and confessional) affiliations:


    INHERITED STATUS AND SLAVERY IN LATE MEDIEVAL ITALY AND VENETIAN CRETE*
    Author(s): Sally McKee Source: Past & Present, No. 182 (Feb., 2004), pp. 31-53 Published by: Oxford University Press on behalf of The Past and Present Society





    .............

    ............

    .............



    ..................





    Something from the paper torzio gave in his post:


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ghland_plateau


    I could not find concrete numbers on the proportion of slaves on Crete during the centuries of Venetian rule. Some other papers report serious numbers of slaves on Mallorca (up to 36% at some point) but I could not find any specific data for Crete (and the paper describes mainly city dwellers).
    All that is good, but does she mention how many Venetians were there vs how many locals? Crete is a big island!

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Yes but what separates Peloponnesians from Cretans is the minor Slavic genetic imprint (Slavic incursions of the 6th and 7th Century) with the exception of deep Mani and isolated Tskanonian regions of Aracadia.
    Sorry, matadworf, I'm not completely sure what you mean. According to the authors of this paper, that minor Central European/Slavic genetic imprint also made its way to Crete, except for the mentioned very isolated areas.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Also people have to understand statistics that tell you have let's say 13.2% Iberian does not mean that your ancestors come from Iberia. It just means that in K15, since they only have 15 populations in the database, the best fit to those 15 populations is that you share 13.2% of your genome with Iberians. Not that you do, just that SNP by SNP, the program calculates the closest fit among those 15 population. So in 13.2% of the SNPs, the closest fit was that of the Iberians. I don't worry that a Catalan pirate may have raped a long ago grandmother of mine.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 15-06-19 at 20:31.

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    But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "These Neolithic settlers and subsequent waves of Neolithic migrants (Broodbank & Strasser, 1991; Cherry, 1981; Nowicki, 2008; Weinberg, 1965) established the first advanced European civilization, the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Crete from 3000 to about 1450 B.C.E. (Evans, 1921). The island was subsequently conquered by the Myceneans of mainland Greece (Bennet, 2011; Chadwick, 1976; deFidio, 2008) who ruled from around 1450 to 1100 B.C.E. Homer (1650) describes Crete as a populous island with 90 cities inhabited by several tribes: the Achaeans, who correspond to the people now called Myceneans (Bennet, 2011; Schofield, 2007); the Pelasgians who were the pre‐Hellenic population of the Helladic space (Herodotus, 1999; Strabo, 2006); the Eteocretans (Cretans of the old stock); the Kydonians; and the Dorians (Strabo, 2006). Eteocretans and Kydonians were considered to be autochthonous Cretans while the other tribes originated from Greece (Strabo, 2006). "
    "
    Following the Hellenistic period during which there is no record of population migrations to Crete, the island was conquered in 69 B.C.E. by the Romans (Sanders, 1982). The almost 400 years of Roman occupation was followed by about 500 years of relatively peaceful rule by the Byzantines (Tsougarakis, 1988) until Crete fell in 827 C.E. to Arab exiles from Andalusia (Brooks, 1913; Christides, 1984; Detorakis, 2015; Vassiliev, 1980). The Arab Emirate of Crete was frequently raided the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean, but after 134 years of Arab rule, the island was recaptured in 961 C.E. by the Byzantines (Norwich, 1998; Vassiliev, 1980). The 243 years of the second Byzantine rule ended when the Byzantine Empire fell to the Francs and the Venetians of the Fourth Crusade. The Venetians purchased the island in 1204 C.E. from the crusader Boniface of Montferrat; they ruled Crete for 465 years and established a feudal system that provoked several revolutions of the population (Detorakis, 2015; Xanthoudidis, 1939). From 1645 to 1669, Ottomans and Venetians fought for 24 years over Crete and the island was captured by the Ottomans who ruled for 267 years during which the Cretans revolted several times (Detorakis, 2015). The island gained its autonomy in 1889 and was unified with Greece in 1913."
    Finally someone who is doing the sampling correctly.
    "
    We focused on the rural population of Crete. The participants were males or females 70 years or older (range of ages 70 to 94 years) who had paternal and maternal grandparents originating from villages located in the same district of Crete. With this approach, we reconstructed the rural population of Crete at the time of birth of the grandparents of the participants (i.e., the population of the period 1850 to 1880)."
    "
    Genetic differentiation of the Cretan populations. (a) Results of principal component analysis (PCA) analysis of the 17 Cretan subpopulations. Notice that the individuals of the study are not distributed randomly but they form clusters distinguishing several subpopulations. Also notice that the eastern and the western subpopulations are placed on the opposite sites of the graph."
    "
    The east‐to‐west gradient could represent ancient population settlement patterns. It is known that the Minoan settlements concentrated in central and eastern Crete (Branigan, 1970) while the Myceneans (likely of Peloponnesean origin) dominated the central and the western parts of the island (deFidio, 2008). The Kydonians inhabited western Crete and the Eteocretans inhabited southern (Strabo, 2006) and eastern Crete (Duhoux, 1982). Eastern Crete received waves of new immigrants from the Anatolian coast through the Dodecanese in the Final Neolithic/Early Minoan (around 3,500 to 3,000 B.C.E.) (Nowicki, 2002, 2008). It was thus possible that the east‐to‐west gradient reflected these old population distributions that had been preserved by the geography of the island. Compatible with population movements between Crete, Peloponnese, and Dodecanese are the findings of IBD analysis (Figure S5) showing high IBD sharing between Peloponnese and west Crete and similarly high between Dodecanese and east Crete. Another explanation of the east‐to‐the west gradient, supported by the Cretan mountainous geography, is isolation by distance. Future analyses might help clarify this issue."
    "To explore the genetic relationships between Cretans and the European and Near Eastern populations, we employed IBD analysis and PCA. In IBD analysis, our primary measure of relatedness was mean pairwise IBD, that is, the average amount of detected IBD (in segments >2 cM) shared between individuals in two populations (Tables S3 and S4). The heat map in Figure 3a shows the average amount of IBD shared between individuals in Crete, Europe, the Caucasus, and the Near East. All three regions of Crete are most strongly related to Europe. Bootstrap analyses confirm that the Crete–Europe relationship is significantly stronger than either Crete–Caucasus or Crete–Near East (Figure S6)."
    Sorry, the IBD analysis seems pretty useless to me. The most recent migrations are the ones that are going to show up, i.e. from the Slavic migrations filtering down and forward. The older ones which represent the majority of the population are too broken up by time and recombination to show up.
    The PCA is more informative,
    "
    In contrast to the IBD data, PCA comparisons of Crete with the European populations distinguish the Cretans from Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans (Figures 4a and S11a). PCA plots specifically show a clear separation of the Cretans from the Polish, Ukrainians, Russians, and Belarussians (Figures 4b and S11b). They are also clearly distinguished from Western and Northwestern Europe (Figures 4a and S11b). ADMIXTURE plots confirm the PCA findings (Figures S12 and S13)."
    Now this is very interesting. Maybe they were listening to our complaints about the Peloponnese paper.
    If someone knows how to get a bigger and clearer picture of these I'd really appreciate it.

    It's pretty clear regardless. Cretans, Sicilians, and the people of the Peloponnese being very close. One part of the Sicilian population overlaps a bit with them, but a lot of them are equally close to the people of the Peloponnese.
    Crete and various cities of Sicily, including PALERMO.

    Cretans and the Ashkenazim:
    Indeed, I think I would be overlapping with Peloponnese. On 23andme, it is also where I have an affinity:
    Last edited by Jovialis; Yesterday at 16:51.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    All that is good, but does she mention how many Venetians were there vs how many locals? Crete is a big island!
    The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here

    when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says

    in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege. Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.


    The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
    In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
    by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
    The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.

    Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.

    so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.
    Venetians sent croats from zara (zagreb) to crete and also slavs from the venetian pelopennese capital nafplion

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.


    Peter Charanis :
    https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/Bal...File/5113/5142


    The Slavs then who settled in the Greek lands, settled there during the
    reign of Maurice in the 80’s of the sixth century. More Slavs may have come
    later, but their coming cannot be precisely documented. The Slavs settled in
    Macedonia, in Thessaly, in Epirus, in central Greece, the Peloponnese, and
    even in Crete. Their settlements were denser in the western regions than they
    were in the eastern regions of Greece. They failed to enter the eastern Peloponnese,
    and while some did establish themselves in Attica and Boeotia, they were
    apparently not too many...
    http://www.archaeology.ru/Download/S..._srednevek.pdf


    Источники
    позволяют полагать, что славянское население проживало также на островах Эгейского и
    Средиземного морей - Крите, Эвбее, Фасосе, Корфу, Самосе, Эгине, Теносе, Левкосе и других (10]


    Paper by a Crete native :
    https://www.academia.edu/26796209/Sl..._-_Athens_2016


    https://www.andromedabooks.gr/product.asp?catid=37400


    I hope it will be translated to English and uploaded or available for sale soon.

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