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Thread: The Genetic history of Crete

  1. #51
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know how much more clearly the authors could have put it. Those three areas show less influence from anyone. It's isolation and then drift.

    As for the "there must be Turkish" blood in Greece, Albania and other countries", bigsnake I'm sure knows better than I do, so if I go wrong, he may, of course, correct me, but this is my understanding:

    By the time of the Ottoman take over, they were Muslim, and the inhabitants were Christian of one variety or another.

    It boggles the imagination that an Ottoman family would allow their daughters to abjure their faith, turn apostate, and go marry a Christian Greek and live in that community. If a Christian Greek male wished to marry a Muslim girl, he would need to convert, be circumcised, and become part of the Ottoman community, and when they left he and his progeny would be part of the group going into exile.

    Now, I think a Christian girl could become a wife or concubine to a Turk, and could then even keep her Christian faith, but her children would then become part of the Ottoman society.

    From what I've read there was no such thing as "civil marriage"; marriages were performed by a holy man or teacher of that particular faith. A Christian and a Muslim couldn't marry without one of them converting or at least the ceremony being performed by either a Christian priest or a Muslim officiate.

    So, if anything, I think there is Balkan ancestry in Ottoman Turks, but I don't see how it could have happened the other way around, except perhaps where whole groups converted to Islam, as many Albanians did. I don't know if in that case intermarriage did occur between Albanian Muslims and Muslims from Turkey, and if it did whether they went into exile back to Turkey or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, I think I would be overlapping with Peloponnese. On 23andme, it is also where I have an affinity:
    Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.
    South-Central Italians in Lazio fall into the cluster that is shown as Peloponnese. It bridges Tuscans and Sicily.




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    Take a look at the modern Greek samples, there is Thessaloniki. Albanians cluster with Thessaloniki too:




    The Armenoi_Crete sample seems to fall into the "Peloponnese" cluster as well.


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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.
    Something better about being more "West Med"?

    First of all, is there something in the paper which specifically says that? Or is it just your own results from amateur calculators? Please don't tell me that Sikeliot told you so, the Sikeliot who insisted that the Greeks had no genetic input into southern Italy, and that instead it was a massive migration of people from the Levant. :)

    If it's true I guess you should be going to Mani and Tsakonia to spend some time with the closest genetic descendants of the people who created the glory which was Greece, in addition to being such fierce fighters in defense of the Greeks of a more recent time.

    As for the people of Sicily, they have a bit of diversity. Some overlap with people of the Peloponnese, and some with the people of Crete. I wish they had included the Calabrians and the Pugliesi. Interesting that much of Crete actually extends further east toward the Levant than the Sicilians. I guess they got more of that massive wave of Levantines. :)

    The Peloponnese, from the PCA, at least, is mostly south and east of the Tuscans, more Lazio, or even more, Abruzzo, as the most "northern" point of reference? Those two stray "Tuscan" samples are a bit odd. Either a great-grandparent from further south, or perhaps the sample is from the border area with Lazio.

    @Jovialis
    Good post. Thanks also for reminding me that the Crete Armenoi sample lands in the Peloponnese. That's still my sole ancient IBD sample from MTA, even if the overall autosomal comparison is pretty distant.


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    Modern Greeks are descendants of Minoans and Mykiants. The DNA analysis of representatives of Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations proved their genetic relationship with each other, as well as with modern Greeks. It is shown that the Neolithic populations of Anatolia made the main contribution to the formation of the Minoans and Mycenaeans. The authors found in them a genetic component originating from the Caucasus and from Iran, and in the Mykene population - a small trace from Eastern Europe and Siberia.

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    Well, I don't know if I'd say 14%-34%? from the Slavic migrations, depending on the area, admittedly themselves mixed by the time they got to most of Greece, of course, can be called a "trace". Somebody can check the data in the paper on the genetics of the Peloponnese and this one for the precise numbers. The point remains even if I'm off a few percentage points.

    That's over and above the amount of "new" ancestry from the steppe during the Bronze Age, although that was probably mixed as well, and much smaller by comparison.

    Greece got hammered during the Slavic migrations, "helped" if one could use such a word for such a horror, by the plague, if not during the coming of the actual Greek speakers.

    What was the estimate the Greek researcher used for the similarity, on average, between Mycenaeans and modern Greeks? 75%? Some areas, in the north, obviously, would be less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's good to finally put to rest the whole question of the relationship between Sicilians/Peloponnesians/Cretans.

    As I tried to explain over and over again, a lot of the misunderstanding had to do with the fact that comparisons were being made with Greeks from around Thessaloniki (old Salonika).

    By using Peloponnesians, who, after all, provided a lot of the migration to Southern Italy and Sicily, we can see the overlap with Sicilians, and we can also see the overlap with Crete, meaning there is not in fact this huge divide between mainland Greece and Crete.
    Maybe it also has to do with the dimensions that they pick to represent the populations in the PCA. Look at Armenians in this PCA and look at the Lazaridis they are way more shifted away from Cretans. Same with Tuscans who are closer in this PCA to Sicilians than they are in that of Lazaridis.

    Peloponnesians are obviously the closests mainlanders to Sicilians genetically that is well known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ack View Post
    Sicilians are not overlapping with the Peloponnesian Greeks. Sicilians have a significantly less amount of steppe component and also a significantly greater amount of middle eastern blending and less of western-type farmers. Sicilians are grouped together with Ashkenazi Jews. Perhaps this is related to Carthage. Not even the Cretans group together with the Peloponnesian Greeks. Yes, they are obviously related and close, but they definitely don't come together. It will be like saying that Tuscany are grouped with Trentinos. They are not far apart, but they are definitely not the same. To be quite clear: there is nothing better or worse about being more or less Western Mediterranean - I think it is important to remember this because some people are sensitive to the subject.
    I think it is important to remember that you are a crypto-anti-semite that wants to associate jews with other ethnic groups that you dislike. You should remember, this isn't Anthrogenica, and you don't have inept moderators to get your back.

    Time to go back to Anthrogenica, Ruderico.

    You're going to tell us that they don't overlap with one, but do with the other, despite what the PCA clearly shows? Some Peloponnesians do overlap with Sicilians. No amount of sophistry, or ignorant inferences based on history is going to change that.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it is important to remember that you are a crypto-anti-semite that wants to associate jews with other ethnic groups that you dislike. You should remember, this isn't Anthrogenica, and you don't have inept moderators to get your back.

    Time to go back to Anthrogenica, Ruderico.
    Ah, so that's who he really is?

    As Ruderico, when bested in an argument he had here with me he said he would never post here again. So he comes back under a new name? Isn't that against the rules at anthrogenica? :) It's also complete hypocrisy.

    Did I ever mention that I got permanently banned from anthrogenica because I forgot my user name and password (it had been more than a year since I went there to read anything) and just tried to set up a new account? Mind you, I never, ever posted a word there, so I was clearly not trying to deceive anyone.

    At first I got a message saying if you forget your identification data contact us; don't just set up a new account. Next thing I know I get a message I'm permanently banned. I'm sure that was Ruderico.

    I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry.

    It's like the man doesn't read the papers or look at the graphs, or ignores them, not only with regard to Italians, but with regard to Iberians.

    I don't think most of the supposed "Jews" on that thread are really Jewish; not all of them anyway. Most Jews I know would not be fighting to the death to prove they're mostly Greek, although of course there's a lot of Southern European in western Jews.

    Nor are the supposed "Italians" Italian. Claudio was obviously Sikeliot, for example.

    There's like maybe five legit, properly identified people over there, and the rest are all t-roll, sock accounts. What a descent into the abyss from the days of dna forums when archaeologists and actual intellectuals were in charge.

    It must be like what academia was like in Leninist and Stalinist Russia over there. Sure you can post, but only if you agree with us. If we don't like your facts and arguments, it's sophistry.

    What a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah, so that's who he really is?

    As Ruderico, when bested in an argument he had here with me he said he would never post here again. So he comes back under a new name? Isn't that against the rules at anthrogenica? :) It's also complete hypocrisy.

    Did I ever mention that I got permanently banned from anthrogenica because I forgot my user name and password (it had been more than a year since I went there to read anything) and just tried to set up a new account? Mind you, I never, ever posted a word there, so I was clearly not trying to deceive anyone.

    At first I got a message saying if you forget your identification data contact us; don't just set up a new account. Next thing I know I get a message I'm permanently banned. I'm sure that was Ruderico.

    I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry.

    It's like the man doesn't read the papers or look at the graphs, or ignores them, not only with regard to Italians, but with regard to Iberians.

    I don't think most of the supposed "Jews" on that thread are really Jewish; not all of them anyway. Most Jews I know would not be fighting to the death to prove they're mostly Greek, although of course there's a lot of Southern European in western Jews.

    Nor are the supposed "Italians" Italian. Claudio was obviously Sikeliot, for example.

    There's like maybe five legit, properly identified people over there, and the rest are all t-roll, sock accounts. What a descent into the abyss from the days of dna forums when archaeologists and actual intellectuals were in charge.

    It must be like what academia was like in Leninist and Stalinist Russia over there. Sure you can post, but only if you agree with us. If we don't like your facts and arguments, it's sophistry.

    What a joke.
    Agamemnon is most likely Anglo-Jew as well, from the Aprcity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Agamemnon is most likely Anglo-Jew as well, from the Aprcity.
    Goodness, after the thousands of posts he wrote with linguistics supporting model after model PROVING that the Tuscans were descended from a migration from Turkey in the first millennium BC a la Herodotus, and the papers showing he was disastrously wrong, I thought for sure he would have taken up a new hobby, or at least done what they always do over there, and change their names.

    Ruderico was, of course, a big supporter of that hypothesis. Surprised? :)

    I've never changed my name or identity. When I post I post as myself so there's no confusion. I also acknowledge each and every conclusion I ever reached, and even every hypothesis I ever proffered. Of course, I've never actually been proven wrong, probably, to be fair, because I never get too far ahead of the data, and if my hypothesis is a tentative one I say so.

    Still, I like to believe I have the honesty and integrity to have admitted I was wrong about something major if that was proved to be the case.

    Those are foreign words to most of the people over there. I don't know what the chief moderator is doing over there. He seems like a decent enough person. Maybe he's just a figurehead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Agamemnon is most likely Anglo-Jew as well, from the Aprcity.
    Just checked it, AngoJew has a different Y DNA from Agamemnon.

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    I no longer post at Anthrogenica; the benefits are far outweighed by the humorless Hindutva fanatics whose self-importance is topped only by their inferiority complexes, particularly at the appearance of a certain y-chromosome haplogroup, at least at Eurogenes Vasistha is not the moderator. I believe Agamemnon is Jewish by male line, and his matrilineal descent is British, at any rate.

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    There is NO WAY a gene flow from Muslims to Christians could occur in an Islamic state.
    Ottoman empire was an Islamic empire. It was epitome of an Islamic state, it was the caliphate and was ruled by the Islamic law which is very clear on these issues

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    ''In Table S5, we list the source populations that provided the strongest evidence of admixture (exponential amplitude and decay more than four standard errors higher than zero). A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.''
    Roughly 20% Northern Slavic input in Cretans according to this scientific paper. Not that I believe it.

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    The Byzantine emperors when they reconquered Crete supposedly slaughtered 200,000 Muslims although that figure is probably a bit excessive. But even 100,000 dead people had to be replaced so they moved some people from elsewhere in the empire. So where did they come from? Remember the emperors wanted people that paid taxes so they did not care about their ethnicity. They probably moved them from non-heretic Orthodox areas that spoke Greek.

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    It is shown also in the Neolithic migration paper that Peloponnesians overlap a bit with Sicilians, in this case populations from central Peloponnese (Tripoli) and south Laconia.
    38F27F27-7AEE-41EC-A34B-A374964C3DB7.jpg7955A9F8-2CBF-4DF0-AD86-7BA62C8869B8.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    It is shown also in the Neolithic migration paper that Peloponnesians overlap a bit with Sicilians, in this case populations from central Peloponnese (Tripoli) and south Laconia.
    38F27F27-7AEE-41EC-A34B-A374964C3DB7.jpg7955A9F8-2CBF-4DF0-AD86-7BA62C8869B8.jpg
    Southeast Laconians shift towards Sicilians while the northwestern ones are shifting towards Tuscans.
    Maniots in GedMatch fall under "Central Greek" cluster. They come up as 90% Sicilian + 10% Ukrainian. While other Peloponnesians as 75% Sicilian + 25% Ukrainian.

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    This PCA shows a strong overlap with Macedonia and Peloponnese.
    Last edited by ihype02; 01-08-20 at 00:40.

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    My grandmother was Tsakonian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Something better about being more "West Med"?


    First of all, is there something in the paper which specifically says that? Or is it just your own results from amateur calculators? Please don't tell me that Sikeliot told you so, the Sikeliot who insisted that the Greeks had no genetic input into southern Italy, and that instead it was a massive migration of people from the Levant. :)

    If it's true I guess you should be going to Mani and Tsakonia to spend some time with the closest genetic descendants of the people who created the glory which was Greece, in addition to being such fierce fighters in defense of the Greeks of a more recent time.

    As for the people of Sicily, they have a bit of diversity. Some overlap with people of the Peloponnese, and some with the people of Crete. I wish they had included the Calabrians and the Pugliesi. Interesting that much of Crete actually extends further east toward the Levant than the Sicilians. I guess they got more of that massive wave of Levantines. :)

    The Peloponnese, from the PCA, at least, is mostly south and east of the Tuscans, more Lazio, or even more, Abruzzo, as the most "northern" point of reference? Those two stray "Tuscan" samples are a bit odd. Either a great-grandparent from further south, or perhaps the sample is from the border area with Lazio.

    @Jovialis
    Good post. Thanks also for reminding me that the Crete Armenoi sample lands in the Peloponnese. That's still my sole ancient IBD sample from MTA, even if the overall autosomal comparison is pretty distant.
    My maternal grandmother was Tsakonian from a village near Leonidion in the Parnon Mountains (Paleohori).

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