The Genetic history of Crete

It might be offtopic as it concerns mainly the town dwellers but I found this paper very interesting also with the picture of the interactions between the locals and the new elite and change of ethnic (and confessional) affiliations:


INHERITED STATUS AND SLAVERY IN LATE MEDIEVAL ITALY AND VENETIAN CRETE*
Author(s): Sally McKee Source: Past & Present, No. 182 (Feb., 2004), pp. 31-53 Published by: Oxford University Press on behalf of The Past and Present Society


It stands to reason,
also, that female slaves as sexual partners and the children they
produced were more widespread than even the considerable
numbers in the records indicate. The evidence from Venetian
Crete tends strongly to suggest not only that men maintained
long-term relationships with servile women, but that they had
even longer ones with the children produced by such unions. As
noted before, illegitimate children by slave women show up as
beneficiaries in wills and as active parties in notarial documents.
That they are not hard to find testifies to their acknowledged
presence in society and perhaps in the sentiments of their fathers...


.............
At the highest and lowest levels of society, there were those
whose claims to be Latin threatened to blur the boundaries
established by the authorities. At the highest, recognition as a
Latin meant access to wealth. At the lowest level, it meant free-
dom. Their claims, therefore, needed substantiation. For the
people of the middling social rank living in the city of Candia,
no great advantage accrued from claiming to be Latin. And so
it comes as no surprise that, on that social level, discerning the
ancestry of the skilled and unskilled labourers of Candia in the
sources is almost impossible, and probably it was not parti-
cularly clear to the people themselves of that time, since inter-
marriage at that social level was very common..
............
Because there were both sanctioned (by marriage) and
unsanctioned (concubinage) unions between the members of
the different communities at all levels of society, determining
who was or was not Latin became a problem that had to be
solved through the imposition of standards of proof. Most
people fell relatively easily into one community or the other,
depending on their families' social rank and political allegiance.
The increasing number of illegitimate children of mixed par-
entage, however, meant that a growing proportion of the popu-
lation wished to but could not assign itself to the group most
desirable from the point of view of rights and privliges...
.............
Three types of legal status existed in Venetian Crete. The
unfree peasantry, who resided in and toiled upon the great agri-
cultural estates throughout the island, constituted the villeins,
who were Greek-speaking adherents of the Eastern Church
whose ancestors had once served Byzantine masters under the
label of paroikoi. Slave status applied to those men and women
who had been brought by merchants to the island, where they
were bought either by residents in the colony or by merchants
from elsewhere to be exported elsewhere. In the first half of the
fourteenth century, the majority of slaves were Christian
Greeks captured in Asia Minor, mainland Greece or the
Aegean islands. The end of the century witnessed the replace-
ment of Greek slaves by more and more people from the Black
Sea region: Tatars, Circassians, Bulgars, Turks, Russians and
others. Finally, free status constituted the only other legal con-
dition recognized in Crete, although the free population of
the colony itself was certainly economically and politically
stratified.
Only one status was coextensive with an ancestral group: the
Latins...


..................
But conversion to the Roman rite did not suffice to win a slave
or a villein's freedom. Claiming to be the child of a Latin
father, however, did. The colonial administration's attempts to
devise standards of establishing Latin ancestry came far too late
to be effective or meaningful, since the population had been
sexually mixing from the colony's birth in spite of ban on
marriages between Latins and Greeks. The important point is
that such standards were devised only because the lines be-
tween the two ancestral groups were becoming blurred at the
highest and lowest levels of society where property and legal
capacity were at stake...


...But other evidence, like the case involving
Pietro Porco's sons makes clear that at some point in the first
decades of the fourteenth cen-
tury free status began to descend automatically to the children
Latin men had by slave women. In 1271 Bellamore Rosso, a resi-
dent of Candia, had drawn up an instrument of manumission for
his son Bonaventura by his slave woman Bona.
Within thirty years, the situation had changed. Among the
approximately eight hundred wills that survive from the four-
teenth century many were made by testators who looked to the
future of their slaves and the children they had by them.
Although numerous men freed slave women in their wills, none
of them freed the sons and daughters they had by them. Nor in
the wills of relatives left in charge of those children is there any
indication that before dying the fathers had formally manumitted
them. The children are all assumed to be free...

Something from the paper torzio gave in his post:
Based on the age of the R1b-associated Y-STR variation for the Crete-without-Lasithi-Plateau population,the genetic affinity between R1b haplogroups from North Italy and Crete might be the imprints of an Italian geneflow before the end of the Minoan civilization and/or more recent migrations during the Roman and Venetian ruling periods. Finally, it is possible that the more recent age for the R1b-associated Y-STR variation in the Lasithi Plateau population as compared with the estimate for the rest of eastern Crete could have resulted from population bottle-necks in the mountain plain. Alternatively, these lineages might have been introduced to the Lasithi highland plain long after their presence in other regions of the island...

https://www.researchgate.net/public...age_predominates_in_a_Cretan_highland_plateau


I could not find concrete numbers on the proportion of slaves on Crete during the centuries of Venetian rule. Some other papers report serious numbers of slaves on Mallorca (up to 36% at some point) but I could not find any specific data for Crete (and the paper describes mainly city dwellers).
 
It might be offtopic as it concerns mainly the town dwellers but I found this paper very interesting also with the picture of the interactions between the locals and the new elite and change of ethnic (and confessional) affiliations:


INHERITED STATUS AND SLAVERY IN LATE MEDIEVAL ITALY AND VENETIAN CRETE*
Author(s): Sally McKee Source: Past & Present, No. 182 (Feb., 2004), pp. 31-53 Published by: Oxford University Press on behalf of The Past and Present Society





.............

............

.............



..................





Something from the paper torzio gave in his post:


https://www.researchgate.net/public...age_predominates_in_a_Cretan_highland_plateau


I could not find concrete numbers on the proportion of slaves on Crete during the centuries of Venetian rule. Some other papers report serious numbers of slaves on Mallorca (up to 36% at some point) but I could not find any specific data for Crete (and the paper describes mainly city dwellers).

All that is good, but does she mention how many Venetians were there vs how many locals? Crete is a big island!
 
Yes but what separates Peloponnesians from Cretans is the minor Slavic genetic imprint (Slavic incursions of the 6th and 7th Century) with the exception of deep Mani and isolated Tskanonian regions of Aracadia.

Sorry, matadworf, I'm not completely sure what you mean. According to the authors of this paper, that minor Central European/Slavic genetic imprint also made its way to Crete, except for the mentioned very isolated areas.
 
Also people have to understand statistics that tell you have let's say 13.2% Iberian does not mean that your ancestors come from Iberia. It just means that in K15, since they only have 15 populations in the database, the best fit to those 15 populations is that you share 13.2% of your genome with Iberians. Not that you do, just that SNP by SNP, the program calculates the closest fit among those 15 population. So in 13.2% of the SNPs, the closest fit was that of the Iberians. I don't worry that a Catalan pirate may have raped a long ago grandmother of mine.
 
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But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.
 
"These Neolithic settlers and subsequent waves of Neolithic migrants (Broodbank & Strasser, 1991; Cherry, 1981; Nowicki, 2008; Weinberg, 1965) established the first advanced European civilization, the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Crete from 3000 to about 1450 B.C.E. (Evans, 1921). The island was subsequently conquered by the Myceneans of mainland Greece (Bennet, 2011; Chadwick, 1976; deFidio, 2008) who ruled from around 1450 to 1100 B.C.E. Homer (1650) describes Crete as a populous island with 90 cities inhabited by several tribes: the Achaeans, who correspond to the people now called Myceneans (Bennet, 2011; Schofield, 2007); the Pelasgians who were the pre‐Hellenic population of the Helladic space (Herodotus, 1999; Strabo, 2006); the Eteocretans (Cretans of the old stock); the Kydonians; and the Dorians (Strabo, 2006). Eteocretans and Kydonians were considered to be autochthonous Cretans while the other tribes originated from Greece (Strabo, 2006). "
"
Following the Hellenistic period during which there is no record of population migrations to Crete, the island was conquered in 69 B.C.E. by the Romans (Sanders, 1982). The almost 400 years of Roman occupation was followed by about 500 years of relatively peaceful rule by the Byzantines (Tsougarakis, 1988) until Crete fell in 827 C.E. to Arab exiles from Andalusia (Brooks, 1913; Christides, 1984; Detorakis, 2015; Vassiliev, 1980). The Arab Emirate of Crete was frequently raided the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean, but after 134 years of Arab rule, the island was recaptured in 961 C.E. by the Byzantines (Norwich, 1998; Vassiliev, 1980). The 243 years of the second Byzantine rule ended when the Byzantine Empire fell to the Francs and the Venetians of the Fourth Crusade. The Venetians purchased the island in 1204 C.E. from the crusader Boniface of Montferrat; they ruled Crete for 465 years and established a feudal system that provoked several revolutions of the population (Detorakis, 2015; Xanthoudidis, 1939). From 1645 to 1669, Ottomans and Venetians fought for 24 years over Crete and the island was captured by the Ottomans who ruled for 267 years during which the Cretans revolted several times (Detorakis, 2015). The island gained its autonomy in 1889 and was unified with Greece in 1913."
Finally someone who is doing the sampling correctly.
"
We focused on the rural population of Crete. The participants were males or females 70 years or older (range of ages 70 to 94 years) who had paternal and maternal grandparents originating from villages located in the same district of Crete. With this approach, we reconstructed the rural population of Crete at the time of birth of the grandparents of the participants (i.e., the population of the period 1850 to 1880)."
"
Genetic differentiation of the Cretan populations. (a) Results of principal component analysis (PCA) analysis of the 17 Cretan subpopulations. Notice that the individuals of the study are not distributed randomly but they form clusters distinguishing several subpopulations. Also notice that the eastern and the western subpopulations are placed on the opposite sites of the graph."
"
The east‐to‐west gradient could represent ancient population settlement patterns. It is known that the Minoan settlements concentrated in central and eastern Crete (Branigan, 1970) while the Myceneans (likely of Peloponnesean origin) dominated the central and the western parts of the island (deFidio, 2008). The Kydonians inhabited western Crete and the Eteocretans inhabited southern (Strabo, 2006) and eastern Crete (Duhoux, 1982). Eastern Crete received waves of new immigrants from the Anatolian coast through the Dodecanese in the Final Neolithic/Early Minoan (around 3,500 to 3,000 B.C.E.) (Nowicki, 2002, 2008). It was thus possible that the east‐to‐west gradient reflected these old population distributions that had been preserved by the geography of the island. Compatible with population movements between Crete, Peloponnese, and Dodecanese are the findings of IBD analysis (Figure S5) showing high IBD sharing between Peloponnese and west Crete and similarly high between Dodecanese and east Crete. Another explanation of the east‐to‐the west gradient, supported by the Cretan mountainous geography, is isolation by distance. Future analyses might help clarify this issue."
"To explore the genetic relationships between Cretans and the European and Near Eastern populations, we employed IBD analysis and PCA. In IBD analysis, our primary measure of relatedness was mean pairwise IBD, that is, the average amount of detected IBD (in segments >2 cM) shared between individuals in two populations (Tables S3 and S4). The heat map in Figure 3a shows the average amount of IBD shared between individuals in Crete, Europe, the Caucasus, and the Near East. All three regions of Crete are most strongly related to Europe. Bootstrap analyses confirm that the Crete–Europe relationship is significantly stronger than either Crete–Caucasus or Crete–Near East (Figure S6)."
Sorry, the IBD analysis seems pretty useless to me. The most recent migrations are the ones that are going to show up, i.e. from the Slavic migrations filtering down and forward. The older ones which represent the majority of the population are too broken up by time and recombination to show up.
The PCA is more informative,
"
In contrast to the IBD data, PCA comparisons of Crete with the European populations distinguish the Cretans from Central, Northern, and Eastern Europeans (Figures 4a and S11a). PCA plots specifically show a clear separation of the Cretans from the Polish, Ukrainians, Russians, and Belarussians (Figures 4b and S11b). They are also clearly distinguished from Western and Northwestern Europe (Figures 4a and S11b). ADMIXTURE plots confirm the PCA findings (Figures S12 and S13)."
Now this is very interesting. Maybe they were listening to our complaints about the Peloponnese paper.
If someone knows how to get a bigger and clearer picture of these I'd really appreciate it.
uAOLBpl.png

It's pretty clear regardless. Cretans, Sicilians, and the people of the Peloponnese being very close. One part of the Sicilian population overlaps a bit with them, but a lot of them are equally close to the people of the Peloponnese.
Crete and various cities of Sicily, including PALERMO.
g8ShGbs.png

Cretans and the Ashkenazim:
3Fgobs9.png
Indeed, I think I would be overlapping with Peloponnese. On 23andme, it is also where I have an affinity:
TfdBHnZ.png
 
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All that is good, but does she mention how many Venetians were there vs how many locals? Crete is a big island!

The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here

when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says

in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege. Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.


The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.

Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.

so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands
 
But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.

Venetians sent croats from zara (zagreb) to crete and also slavs from the venetian pelopennese capital nafplion
 
But where is the genetic Slavic element in Crete coming from? Mainland Greece? I don't believe there was actual Slavic settlement.

IWj4ltY.jpg


Peter Charanis :
https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/viewFile/5113/5142


The Slavs then who settled in the Greek lands, settled there during the
reign of Maurice in the 80’s of the sixth century. More Slavs may have come
later, but their coming cannot be precisely documented. The Slavs settled in
Macedonia, in Thessaly, in Epirus, in central Greece, the Peloponnese, and
even in Crete. Their settlements were denser in the western regions than they
were in the eastern regions of Greece. They failed to enter the eastern Peloponnese,
and while some did establish themselves in Attica and Boeotia, they were
apparently not too many...

http://www.archaeology.ru/Download/Sedow/Sedow_1995_Slaviane_v_rannem_srednevek.pdf


Источники
позволяют полагать, что славянское население проживало также на островах Эгейского и
Средиземного морей - Крите, Эвбее, Фасосе, Корфу, Самосе, Эгине, Теносе, Левкосе и других (10]



Paper by a Crete native :
https://www.academia.edu/26796209/S...e_in_Greek_with_English_summary_-_Athens_2016


https://www.andromedabooks.gr/product.asp?catid=37400


I hope it will be translated to English and uploaded or available for sale soon.
 
I guess that's why Messinia has the highest Slavic input in all of the Peloponnese based on the Stamatoyannoupolos paper.
 
I don't know how much more clearly the authors could have put it. Those three areas show less influence from anyone. It's isolation and then drift.

As for the "there must be Turkish" blood in Greece, Albania and other countries", bigsnake I'm sure knows better than I do, so if I go wrong, he may, of course, correct me, but this is my understanding:

By the time of the Ottoman take over, they were Muslim, and the inhabitants were Christian of one variety or another.

It boggles the imagination that an Ottoman family would allow their daughters to abjure their faith, turn apostate, and go marry a Christian Greek and live in that community. If a Christian Greek male wished to marry a Muslim girl, he would need to convert, be circumcised, and become part of the Ottoman community, and when they left he and his progeny would be part of the group going into exile.

Now, I think a Christian girl could become a wife or concubine to a Turk, and could then even keep her Christian faith, but her children would then become part of the Ottoman society.

From what I've read there was no such thing as "civil marriage"; marriages were performed by a holy man or teacher of that particular faith. A Christian and a Muslim couldn't marry without one of them converting or at least the ceremony being performed by either a Christian priest or a Muslim officiate.

So, if anything, I think there is Balkan ancestry in Ottoman Turks, but I don't see how it could have happened the other way around, except perhaps where whole groups converted to Islam, as many Albanians did. I don't know if in that case intermarriage did occur between Albanian Muslims and Muslims from Turkey, and if it did whether they went into exile back to Turkey or not.

Indeed, I think I would be overlapping with Peloponnese. On 23andme, it is also where I have an affinity:
TfdBHnZ.png

Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.
 
Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.
South-Central Italians in Lazio fall into the cluster that is shown as Peloponnese. It bridges Tuscans and Sicily.

1xzMbEz.jpg


wEB9YWY.jpg
 
Actually it's Mani and Tsakonia that are close to Crete autosmally. The rest of the Peloponnese is much closer to Thessaly, Epirus (actually all of mainland Greece with the exception of Eastern Macedonia and Tharace) and Southern Albania. My roots are fully in the Peloponnese and I cluster with Thessalians, Southern Albanians and/or Central Italians (Central Med) rather than those on the more Eastern end of the Med spectrum.

Something better about being more "West Med"?

First of all, is there something in the paper which specifically says that? Or is it just your own results from amateur calculators? Please don't tell me that Sikeliot told you so, the Sikeliot who insisted that the Greeks had no genetic input into southern Italy, and that instead it was a massive migration of people from the Levant. :)

If it's true I guess you should be going to Mani and Tsakonia to spend some time with the closest genetic descendants of the people who created the glory which was Greece, in addition to being such fierce fighters in defense of the Greeks of a more recent time.

As for the people of Sicily, they have a bit of diversity. Some overlap with people of the Peloponnese, and some with the people of Crete. I wish they had included the Calabrians and the Pugliesi. Interesting that much of Crete actually extends further east toward the Levant than the Sicilians. I guess they got more of that massive wave of Levantines. :)

The Peloponnese, from the PCA, at least, is mostly south and east of the Tuscans, more Lazio, or even more, Abruzzo, as the most "northern" point of reference? Those two stray "Tuscan" samples are a bit odd. Either a great-grandparent from further south, or perhaps the sample is from the border area with Lazio.

@Jovialis
Good post. Thanks also for reminding me that the Crete Armenoi sample lands in the Peloponnese. That's still my sole ancient IBD sample from MTA, even if the overall autosomal comparison is pretty distant.
 
Modern Greeks are descendants of Minoans and Mykiants. The DNA analysis of representatives of Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations proved their genetic relationship with each other, as well as with modern Greeks. It is shown that the Neolithic populations of Anatolia made the main contribution to the formation of the Minoans and Mycenaeans. The authors found in them a genetic component originating from the Caucasus and from Iran, and in the Mykene population - a small trace from Eastern Europe and Siberia.
 
Well, I don't know if I'd say 14%-34%? from the Slavic migrations, depending on the area, admittedly themselves mixed by the time they got to most of Greece, of course, can be called a "trace". Somebody can check the data in the paper on the genetics of the Peloponnese and this one for the precise numbers. The point remains even if I'm off a few percentage points.

That's over and above the amount of "new" ancestry from the steppe during the Bronze Age, although that was probably mixed as well, and much smaller by comparison.

Greece got hammered during the Slavic migrations, "helped" if one could use such a word for such a horror, by the plague, if not during the coming of the actual Greek speakers.

What was the estimate the Greek researcher used for the similarity, on average, between Mycenaeans and modern Greeks? 75%? Some areas, in the north, obviously, would be less.
 
It's good to finally put to rest the whole question of the relationship between Sicilians/Peloponnesians/Cretans.

As I tried to explain over and over again, a lot of the misunderstanding had to do with the fact that comparisons were being made with Greeks from around Thessaloniki (old Salonika).

By using Peloponnesians, who, after all, provided a lot of the migration to Southern Italy and Sicily, we can see the overlap with Sicilians, and we can also see the overlap with Crete, meaning there is not in fact this huge divide between mainland Greece and Crete.

Maybe it also has to do with the dimensions that they pick to represent the populations in the PCA. Look at Armenians in this PCA and look at the Lazaridis they are way more shifted away from Cretans. Same with Tuscans who are closer in this PCA to Sicilians than they are in that of Lazaridis.

Peloponnesians are obviously the closests mainlanders to Sicilians genetically that is well known.
 
Sicilians are not overlapping with the Peloponnesian Greeks. Sicilians have a significantly less amount of steppe component and also a significantly greater amount of middle eastern blending and less of western-type farmers. Sicilians are grouped together with Ashkenazi Jews. Perhaps this is related to Carthage. Not even the Cretans group together with the Peloponnesian Greeks. Yes, they are obviously related and close, but they definitely don't come together. It will be like saying that Tuscany are grouped with Trentinos. They are not far apart, but they are definitely not the same. To be quite clear: there is nothing better or worse about being more or less Western Mediterranean - I think it is important to remember this because some people are sensitive to the subject.

I think it is important to remember that you are a crypto-anti-semite that wants to associate jews with other ethnic groups that you dislike. You should remember, this isn't Anthrogenica, and you don't have inept moderators to get your back.

Time to go back to Anthrogenica, Ruderico.

You're going to tell us that they don't overlap with one, but do with the other, despite what the PCA clearly shows? Some Peloponnesians do overlap with Sicilians. No amount of sophistry, or ignorant inferences based on history is going to change that.
 
I think it is important to remember that you are a crypto-anti-semite that wants to associate jews with other ethnic groups that you dislike. You should remember, this isn't Anthrogenica, and you don't have inept moderators to get your back.

Time to go back to Anthrogenica, Ruderico.

Ah, so that's who he really is?

As Ruderico, when bested in an argument he had here with me he said he would never post here again. So he comes back under a new name? Isn't that against the rules at anthrogenica? :) It's also complete hypocrisy.

Did I ever mention that I got permanently banned from anthrogenica because I forgot my user name and password (it had been more than a year since I went there to read anything) and just tried to set up a new account? Mind you, I never, ever posted a word there, so I was clearly not trying to deceive anyone.

At first I got a message saying if you forget your identification data contact us; don't just set up a new account. Next thing I know I get a message I'm permanently banned. I'm sure that was Ruderico.

I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry.

It's like the man doesn't read the papers or look at the graphs, or ignores them, not only with regard to Italians, but with regard to Iberians.

I don't think most of the supposed "Jews" on that thread are really Jewish; not all of them anyway. Most Jews I know would not be fighting to the death to prove they're mostly Greek, although of course there's a lot of Southern European in western Jews.

Nor are the supposed "Italians" Italian. Claudio was obviously Sikeliot, for example.

There's like maybe five legit, properly identified people over there, and the rest are all t-roll, sock accounts. What a descent into the abyss from the days of dna forums when archaeologists and actual intellectuals were in charge.

It must be like what academia was like in Leninist and Stalinist Russia over there. Sure you can post, but only if you agree with us. If we don't like your facts and arguments, it's sophistry.

What a joke.
 
Ah, so that's who he really is?

As Ruderico, when bested in an argument he had here with me he said he would never post here again. So he comes back under a new name? Isn't that against the rules at anthrogenica? :) It's also complete hypocrisy.

Did I ever mention that I got permanently banned from anthrogenica because I forgot my user name and password (it had been more than a year since I went there to read anything) and just tried to set up a new account? Mind you, I never, ever posted a word there, so I was clearly not trying to deceive anyone.

At first I got a message saying if you forget your identification data contact us; don't just set up a new account. Next thing I know I get a message I'm permanently banned. I'm sure that was Ruderico.

I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry.

It's like the man doesn't read the papers or look at the graphs, or ignores them, not only with regard to Italians, but with regard to Iberians.

I don't think most of the supposed "Jews" on that thread are really Jewish; not all of them anyway. Most Jews I know would not be fighting to the death to prove they're mostly Greek, although of course there's a lot of Southern European in western Jews.

Nor are the supposed "Italians" Italian. Claudio was obviously Sikeliot, for example.

There's like maybe five legit, properly identified people over there, and the rest are all t-roll, sock accounts. What a descent into the abyss from the days of dna forums when archaeologists and actual intellectuals were in charge.

It must be like what academia was like in Leninist and Stalinist Russia over there. Sure you can post, but only if you agree with us. If we don't like your facts and arguments, it's sophistry.

What a joke.

Agamemnon is most likely Anglo-Jew as well, from the Aprcity.
 

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