The Genetic history of Crete

Agamemnon is most likely Anglo-Jew as well, from the Aprcity.

Goodness, after the thousands of posts he wrote with linguistics supporting model after model PROVING that the Tuscans were descended from a migration from Turkey in the first millennium BC a la Herodotus, and the papers showing he was disastrously wrong, I thought for sure he would have taken up a new hobby, or at least done what they always do over there, and change their names.

Ruderico was, of course, a big supporter of that hypothesis. Surprised? :)

I've never changed my name or identity. When I post I post as myself so there's no confusion. I also acknowledge each and every conclusion I ever reached, and even every hypothesis I ever proffered. Of course, I've never actually been proven wrong, probably, to be fair, because I never get too far ahead of the data, and if my hypothesis is a tentative one I say so.

Still, I like to believe I have the honesty and integrity to have admitted I was wrong about something major if that was proved to be the case.

Those are foreign words to most of the people over there. I don't know what the chief moderator is doing over there. He seems like a decent enough person. Maybe he's just a figurehead.
 
I no longer post at Anthrogenica; the benefits are far outweighed by the humorless Hindutva fanatics whose self-importance is topped only by their inferiority complexes, particularly at the appearance of a certain y-chromosome haplogroup, at least at Eurogenes Vasistha is not the moderator. I believe Agamemnon is Jewish by male line, and his matrilineal descent is British, at any rate.
 
There is NO WAY a gene flow from Muslims to Christians could occur in an Islamic state.
Ottoman empire was an Islamic empire. It was epitome of an Islamic state, it was the caliphate and was ruled by the Islamic law which is very clear on these issues
 
''In Table S5, we list the source populations that provided the strongest evidence of admixture (exponential amplitude and decay more than four standard errors higher than zero). A series of populations from western (CEU), northern (CEU, Estonian), and Eastern (Ukrainian, Russian) Europe produce admixture estimates of approximately 17%–28% dating to the medieval period.''
Roughly 20% Northern Slavic input in Cretans according to this scientific paper. Not that I believe it.
 
The Byzantine emperors when they reconquered Crete supposedly slaughtered 200,000 Muslims although that figure is probably a bit excessive. But even 100,000 dead people had to be replaced so they moved some people from elsewhere in the empire. So where did they come from? Remember the emperors wanted people that paid taxes so they did not care about their ethnicity. They probably moved them from non-heretic Orthodox areas that spoke Greek.
 
It is shown also in the Neolithic migration paper that Peloponnesians overlap a bit with Sicilians, in this case populations from central Peloponnese (Tripoli) and south Laconia.
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It is shown also in the Neolithic migration paper that Peloponnesians overlap a bit with Sicilians, in this case populations from central Peloponnese (Tripoli) and south Laconia.
View attachment 12266View attachment 12267
Southeast Laconians shift towards Sicilians while the northwestern ones are shifting towards Tuscans.
Maniots in GedMatch fall under "Central Greek" cluster. They come up as 90% Sicilian + 10% Ukrainian. While other Peloponnesians as 75% Sicilian + 25% Ukrainian.
 
Something better about being more "West Med"?


First of all, is there something in the paper which specifically says that? Or is it just your own results from amateur calculators? Please don't tell me that Sikeliot told you so, the Sikeliot who insisted that the Greeks had no genetic input into southern Italy, and that instead it was a massive migration of people from the Levant. :)

If it's true I guess you should be going to Mani and Tsakonia to spend some time with the closest genetic descendants of the people who created the glory which was Greece, in addition to being such fierce fighters in defense of the Greeks of a more recent time.

As for the people of Sicily, they have a bit of diversity. Some overlap with people of the Peloponnese, and some with the people of Crete. I wish they had included the Calabrians and the Pugliesi. Interesting that much of Crete actually extends further east toward the Levant than the Sicilians. I guess they got more of that massive wave of Levantines. :)

The Peloponnese, from the PCA, at least, is mostly south and east of the Tuscans, more Lazio, or even more, Abruzzo, as the most "northern" point of reference? Those two stray "Tuscan" samples are a bit odd. Either a great-grandparent from further south, or perhaps the sample is from the border area with Lazio.

@Jovialis
Good post. Thanks also for reminding me that the Crete Armenoi sample lands in the Peloponnese. That's still my sole ancient IBD sample from MTA, even if the overall autosomal comparison is pretty distant.
My maternal grandmother was Tsakonian from a village near Leonidion in the Parnon Mountains (Paleohori).
 
It's good to finally put to rest the whole question of the relationship between Sicilians/Peloponnesians/Cretans.

I also find it amusing that after hundreds of thousands of posts on how different Sicilians from different parts of the island were from one another, they all nestle quite nicely within the Cretan cluster. :)

Yup the mix of different people which made todays Cretans is very similar to Sicily

Similar ingredients and also many parallels in the history of both Islands
 
I was always wondering, do Greeks from mainland percieve Crete people any different from them?

My experience in the US being around a few Cretans was that they viewed themselves distinct from mainlanders historically, culturally, etc. As a mainland Greek I was always aware and respectful of Cretan culture.
 
Ah, so that's who he really is?

As Ruderico, when bested in an argument he had here with me he said he would never post here again. So he comes back under a new name? Isn't that against the rules at anthrogenica? :) It's also complete hypocrisy.

Did I ever mention that I got permanently banned from anthrogenica because I forgot my user name and password (it had been more than a year since I went there to read anything) and just tried to set up a new account? Mind you, I never, ever posted a word there, so I was clearly not trying to deceive anyone.

At first I got a message saying if you forget your identification data contact us; don't just set up a new account. Next thing I know I get a message I'm permanently banned. I'm sure that was Ruderico.

I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry.

It's like the man doesn't read the papers or look at the graphs, or ignores them, not only with regard to Italians, but with regard to Iberians.

I don't think most of the supposed "Jews" on that thread are really Jewish; not all of them anyway. Most Jews I know would not be fighting to the death to prove they're mostly Greek, although of course there's a lot of Southern European in western Jews.

Nor are the supposed "Italians" Italian. Claudio was obviously Sikeliot, for example.

There's like maybe five legit, properly identified people over there, and the rest are all t-roll, sock accounts. What a descent into the abyss from the days of dna forums when archaeologists and actual intellectuals were in charge.

It must be like what academia was like in Leninist and Stalinist Russia over there. Sure you can post, but only if you agree with us. If we don't like your facts and arguments, it's sophistry.

What a joke.

" I think at one point, after the twentieth time he had pointed out that as an Iberian he doesn't have a shred of North African or Jew in him, I made some comment about the strangeness of that. That was on this site. I guess he didn't like the implication. Too bad. He's definitely one of those Noridicist types, the kind who lives to point out he's not like the Sicilians and Southern Italians with their "Middle Eastern" ancestry. "

I am not a fan of anthrogenica, but in Ruderico's biography he mentions something around 10% of Moroccan ancestry. In the time I spent in the Portuguese section of Antrogenica I followed many of his comments and nothing disparaging against Jews, North Africans or the Mediterranean in general, on the contrary.

 
The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here
when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says
in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege.
Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.
The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.
Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.
so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands

I think it says 10,000 Venetians not 10,000 Venetian families. That would mean 1 in 3 or at least 1 in 4 Cretan was a Venetian.
 
Cretans have a distinct culture, cuisine, dialect and music than the mainland. Now there has been a lot of homogeneity lately so maybe I am talking about previous generation.
 

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