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Thread: Decline in the average intelligence of the population in advanced industrial nations

  1. #26
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    Guys, this is another one for ignore.

    Poor newbies happily searching away on youtube and other internet sites.


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    There is a point in what are you saying but people aren't losing their IQ because of their mother only, there are a lot of more reasons as they are lazy, and staying on their phones al the day long.

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    IQ is something that one is born with; we use our intelligence to learn things. A real IQ test is not about how much we learned, so maths tests cannot be used to test IQ because it is a matter of learning, too.
    Environmental factors can impede how our brain works (shorter or longer term) or prevent the brain being developed in physical terms, which is rather sad for the individual concerned, but in global terms, it may still be OK, if children of such impeded individuals can have their chance to develop properly. So far we don't have evidence that these environmental factors were changing our genetic make-up for good. Which is a good news, I think.


    After scanning through research on IQ and environment, I think it is rather well known what kind of environmental factors prevent brain being developed in young babies (permanent reduction of IQ for an individual but not in terms of his/her genetic IQ):

    - air pollution
    - inadequate nutrition
    - inadequate stimulation
    - exposure to violence

    Then later there could be also other factors as you mentioned related to use of smart digital devices:

    "Recent research suggests that smartphone usage does indeed have an effect on the brain, although the long-term effects remain to be seen. In one study presented to the Radiological Society of North America, researchers found that young people with a so-called internet and smartphone addition actually demonstrated imbalances in brain chemistry compared to a control group. Another studying appearing in the Journal of the Association for Consumer Research found that cognitive capacity was significantly reduced whenever a smartphone is within reach, even when the phone is off."

    "Researcher Michael Shayer, who co-authored the report, told Euronews that since 1995 a “large social force has been interfering with children’s development of thinking, getting larger each year.” This “social force” includes the development of technology, such as game consoles and smartphones, which have altered the way that children communicate with each other, he explained. Take 14-year-olds in Britain. What 25% could do back in 1994, now only 5% can do, he added, citing maths and science tests".https://www.euronews.com/2017/12/29/...ay-researchers

    This is again not an IQ decrease in terms of genetic make-up, but due to environmental conditions and it may be only temporary, so it is not that bad compared to when babies born for instance in London or Bombay cannot develop their brains due to exposure to air pollution and it is permanent. But again, if things get reversed during one's lifetime or lives of one's children it is not that bad.

    Whereas when clever women get de-selected for offsprings it is a permanent loss of IQ.

    There are many ethical things against having a precise genetic IQ test, but I suppose it would be very interesting to really see if humanity is permanently loosing its IQ or it is just temporary, due to air pollution or smart devices and whatever other factors.
    Last edited by Dagne; 25-06-19 at 15:09.

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    Well..
    Me and my sister from same father (math guy) have top high IQ. My brother from different father (not math guy) has somewhat lower IQ. Still pretty smart.

    My wife struggled with math at school, but my son is best in his class and attends math competitions.

    So, no, father is a factor at least for transferring mathematical skills to his offspring.

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    Well, I am really sorry about men, and your father in particular. According to this theory they do not matter much in terms of passing intelligence to their sons. It must sound like a blow to common sense.

    So you think your intelligence could not have been inherited from your mother's side?

    The thing is that you should look at the skills and talents of your mother, and even more importantly, at your mother's parents, grandparents, grate grandparents and so on. According to this theory a girl has gene variants of her father and mother, but father's are "conditioned" which means that they are not working in her cases, but might be activated within her children. So your mother may not be good at maths but her children may. For boys, his mother's side with regard to IQ is even more important as he (and his offsprings) will inherit that only from his mother's side (mother's parents, grandparents, grate grandparents) it is only combination of these gene variants that influence his IQ.

    Besides, as many of Latvians or Lithuanians three/four generations ago were peasants, one may not know if they could have had talents in sciences, because circumstances were such that people could just work on land.

    What do you know about you mother's family?

    And finally, yes, the genetic architecture for IQ is complex and not very clear; scientists only start IQ gene-hunting expeditions :)
    So they say now that IQ is heritable up to 80%, maths ability is again something more narrow to measure IQ.

    Besides, another fun statistics is that
    "Assortative mating is greater for intelligence (spouse correlations ~0.40) than for other behavioural traits such as personality and psychopathology (~0.10) or physical traits such as height and weight (~0.20)", https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/


    to put in simple words, usually one's parents are quite well-matched in terms of their intelligence.
    Especially in case of the first marriage, I suppose, when status does not matter so much.

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    @Dagne
    Afaik this story of intelligence being inherited greatly from the X and mom is a bit outdated. It must be even more complex than that.

    The article below provide some clues regarding the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What the article says is that we know that IQ is highly heritable, but we don't know how. But it does not question the fact that "IQ genes" are on X chromosome. (which is indeed not anything new, as the research confirmed it in 1991 if I am not mistaken).

    The reason it is in the news now it is because technically it became feasible for scientists to go into proper human genome research only very recently and among other things scientists are trying to understand inheritance through polygenic scoring, which is indeed complex. (The article also points out that currently the genetic tests for IQ are not very reliable, and that there are ethical problems in branding people at a young age or moreover using genetic IQ testing for selecting embryos)

    Regarding Y chromosome influencing IQ, the only reference that I found (also not new) is that it may have a factor of enhancement. But if you find something else - that gene variants on Y chromosome influence IQ - please do share - it is very interesting.


    "Finding the genes

    To psychologists, IQ tests measure something called “g”—the general factor of intelligence. People who are better at math, spatial reasoning, verbal ability, and other skills that tests can measure have higher g.
    And that’s not all. The g factor is strongly correlated with income, happiness, health, and life span. More g seems to be a good thing all around. To Plomin it’s the “omnipotent variable” in life.
    It’s also highly heritable. Comparisons of twins, both identical and fraternal, separated at birth or raised together, had shown that genetics must account for more than half of intelligence—a huge effect for genes. The rest is due to your schools, your diet, and other environmental factors."

    But which specific genes are responsible? The search did not go well at first. Plomin failed to discover any links when he looked at the genomes of 7,900 children in 2010. He later became involved in a misadventure involving a Chinese sequencing company, BGI, to which he supplied the DNA of more than a thousand American geniuses. The project got derailed after news reports accused the Chinese of hatching a plot to breed “genius babies.”
    The gene hunt finally paid off in May 2017. A Dutch-led study of the genetic makeup of 78,308 people who’d taken tests (including 2,825 of Plomin’s twins) zeroed in on variations in 22 genes linked to IQ scores. By this March, the tally had rapidly risen to 199,000 people and 500 genes. Plomin says a forthcoming report will establish links to 1,000 genes.
    Each genetic variable found so far has only a tiny effect, either weakly increasing IQ on average or weakly decreasing it. The trick to turning the discoveries into a personal DNA IQ test? Simply add up all the pluses and minuses you find in a specific person’s genome.
    These types of assessments are called “polygenic scores.” And they’re quickly becoming a very big deal (see “10 breakthrough technologies 2018: Genetic fortune telling”). That’s because they work for any trait, including heart disease, diabetes, and schizophrenia—in all, more than 2,000 traits so far. "



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    So you think your intelligence could not have been inherited from your mother's side?”
    Could, but why would me and my sister (same father mathematician) be more gifted than my brother (different father, not mathematician)?
    Truth be told we (me and my sister) are also more gifted (in math) than other kids of our father, since our mother was great in math too but theirs was not :)

    And now next generation - my wife (her mom, and dad, etc, etc) had struggled with math in school, but my son regularly attends math olympics. So, from where would that come from if not from me? :)

    I think anecdotal evidence from my family is enough for me to at least put a little doubt in one parent being responsible for IQ. Seems more like 50/50-ish.
    _____
    X and Y are 1 of 23 chromosomes.
    “Every healthy individual has a set of 23 chromosomes: 1 is a sex chromosome—or allosome—and 22 are non-sex chromosomes. The non-sex chromosomes are also referred to as autosomes.”
    If Y lacks genes impacting cognitive abilities, there are still other 22 chances for father to pass some IQ related stuff to kid.

    ——-
    But having read more, it makes sense X has some special genes for IQ, since men IQ is more variable than women (more failures/ more geniuses), it may mean recessive traits (otherwise suppressed by average dominants) for both top end and bottom end intellect have higher chance getting through.

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    To sum up.
    I believe level of IQ is determined by “team” of genes with most important “player” coming from X chromosome. Like goalkeeper in football (the real football, Euro one).
    If goal keeper is brilliant average team becomes great. If he is nightmare, whole team struggles. Great and poor keepers seem recessive, women mostly choose the average (most common) version of her two XX (not the genius X or dum X) whilst men got to live with whatever X they had.

    On other hand, if team is great, it should do alright also with average keeper.

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    The football keeper becomes important if the team plays defensive,like ,for example ,the Italian captain Buffon(even in this stance,the player is already the most incisive in the whole team,although in more or less,latent phase),but what about handball, where not even the Y matters?

    When the handballer comes 2-3 meters close to the goal line,what can you do?

    Acting like Sterbik and Omeyer,by moving very well both the hands and feet, can be a good option, until a certain point...
    Last edited by Dreptul Valah; 19-07-19 at 23:03.

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    @Dagne
    Thanks for your comment. In fact I didn't read that much about the subject, I must confess,but I found an article I read time ago (see below) that also led me to my comment above. Of course, among others, in the only opportunity I researched it (I remember to have seen articles - but generally just the titles, lol - mentioning different chromosomes as the main vectors of IQ, including X, but not only.

    Here it is:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2016/09/16/no-research-has-not-established-that-you-inherited-your-intelligence-from-your-mother/

    It mentions this study:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

    Hope I find some time to read it all, btw.

    Cheers

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    EDIT


    the answer


    Since we're not Germans,Russians,Americans, Jews ,or Turks,we'll skip the technical approach this time,after all ,the player is in your semicircle, you can do anything to him.



    Gaining your rights to control the player leads you to a variety of methods,like ,for example, (a more aggressive form of) hypnosis,after a few misses from very sure positions, he'll either lose confidence or become precipitated.

    EDIT2

    Still, this is a real thing in sports, the use of intelligent skills/intelligence, with the above example, called "anticipation".
    Last edited by Dreptul Valah; 20-07-19 at 16:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Dagne
    Thanks for your comment. In fact I didn't read that much about the subject, I must confess,but I found an article I read time ago (see below) that also led me to my comment above. Of course, among others, in the only opportunity I researched it (I remember to have seen articles - but generally just the titles, lol - mentioning different chromosomes as the main vectors of IQ, including X, but not only.

    Here it is:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2016/09/16/no-research-has-not-established-that-you-inherited-your-intelligence-from-your-mother/

    It mentions this study:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/

    Hope I find some time to read it all, btw.

    Cheers
    @RegioX
    In the articles that you refer, especially with the heading which say "no research established that you inherit your intelligence from your mother" -
    there is nothing that would refer that sons inherit their IQ from fathers, too. So, I am afraid, the heading of the article is a bit misleading.

    The author just wants to point out basic things that environmental factors play a part in terms of healthy development of one's potential, also in terms of IQ, and that scientists so far cannot fully explain the overall architecture of IQ inheritance while many flashy articles present the ideas in simplified terms. We all must agree with that, no question.

    But the essence remains as I say - though it goes against common sense, mother's (and her family's) genes are more important than father's when determining child's IQ, which is especially true of boys, who, as it seems, do not have a chance inheriting IQ from their father's side. On the other hand, a part of mother's genes that she inherited from her father are "sleeping" (conditioned). So to say, if you have an average IQ mother, but her father is of very high IQ, grandchildren may be very smart, too. And vice versa, a less intelligent grandfather may bring down grandchildrens' IQ.

    In any case, one can never inherit a polygenetic trait by 100% so it still a matter of chance and, of course, environmental factors play a role, too, no one denies that.

    Anyway, I am sure research on IQ heritability goes on and we may find out more about it in a while.

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    @Dagne,
    I think you are still missing the point :)

    Humans have not just 1 chromosome (the XX or XY one) but 23 of them - one sex based (XX, XY) and 22 autosomal. And genes responsible for IQ are not exclusively located in sex based allosome, but also are present in some or all of 22 others. The ones from X are indeed not passed from father to son, but all the other 22 are a combination from both parents.

    Apparently Y chromosome does not pass IQ related traits or it is not found out yet.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess the answer to the question "is intelligence inherited through the mother?" is not only a yes/no one, but also by "how much?".

    Very often, scientific research results are presented as yes/no ones, but in fact, the interesting part is in the metric.

    For example, it could be true that moms are "more important" for the intelligence of their children, but marginally so. This is more or less similar to the idea that "old women" have "worse" children: maybe the probability of having children with problems increases with the mom's age, but it continues remaining true that the most likely scenario is that the child of an old mom will be perfectly healthy. But instead, moms are terrified by that, and they take radical decisions based on that information, because they *believe* that the most likely scenario is the child will be "defective".

    For example, an old result quotes the intelligence correlation between mom and child is 0.55 and between dad and child is 0.51.

    http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/intelligence.html

    So, according to this result, it is true that mom is more important than dad, for the child intelligence.

    But:

    1. A correlation of 0.55 is low. If one scatters-plot two variables correlated with a correlation coefficient of 0.55, the signal is almost imperceptible, and what dominates is noise
    2. The difference between 0.55 and 0.51 may be measurable over a big sample, but on a single case, the measure is irrelevant

    I am assuming these correlations were measured using IQ test results, and no genetic analysis was performed.

    So, the answer to the question may be technically yes, but in practice for a couple, the result is irrelevant. Love your child, educate him/her, and not be worried about all this research (or supposed research).

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    @Dagne,
    I think you are still missing the point :)

    Humans have not just 1 chromosome (the XX or XY one) but 23 of them - one sex based (XX, XY) and 22 autosomal. And genes responsible for IQ are not exclusively located in sex based allosome, but also are present in some or all of 22 others. The ones from X are indeed not passed from father to son, but all the other 22 are a combination from both parents.

    Apparently Y chromosome does not pass IQ related traits or it is not found out yet.
    But you see, the point is that IQ gene variants that are received from father are conditioned
    "scientists now believe genes for advanced cognitive functions which are inherited from the father may be automatically deactivated"

    this is a new finding that we are talking about.

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    some studies suggest that intelligence is inherited from the mother. These findings were initially found in studies on mice, but confirmed when extrapolated to human brains. This was carried out by a study conducting a survey on >12,000 people. Paternal genes tend to accumulate in the limbic system, which is concerned with aggression, hunger, e.t.c. basic instincts. No paternal gene is found in the cerebral cortex, which is concerned with advanced functions like learning, reading, e.t.c. Intelligence genes are carried by the X chromosome, which are 2 with women. Even if it comes from the X chromosome of the father, it gets deactivated."
    https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/228963
    Sorry, Dagne, but it doesn't seem new. That must be 1996. The article I posted from Forbes explained it (it's not about environment only, and the first I posted not even mention X chromosome).

    "What they’re really describing (I think) is the results of a 1996 paper that reports using mouse embryos that were a mix of cells, some carrying double paternal genomes and some carrying double maternal genomes. Some parts of the mouse brain that developed carried far more of one than the other whereas other parts of the brain showed a reverse pattern. The senior author on that paper, Cambridge University neuroscientist Barry E. Keverne, himself wrote in 2013 that some of the findings may have been the result of a 'failure of these (double paternal) cells to thrive and survive when they reach the developing cortex.'"

    And the article continues... I won't quote it all here, but anyone interested on the matter should read it all.

    Point is, in short, that intelligence is a very complex phenotype, and saying "intelligence comes from mother" (or X), this way, seems an exaggeration, apparently not really supported by science so far.

    @Farstar
    Interesting point.
    Last edited by Regio X; 22-07-19 at 02:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    I find it really sad is that humanity will have less and less IQ because clever women are less reproductive. It is likely that men can inherit their IQ only from their mothers...



    Reminds me of the intro of the film, idiocracy. Where the intelligent refuse to have kids until they are more financially secure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    But you see, the point is that IQ gene variants that are received from father are conditioned
    "scientists now believe genes for advanced cognitive functions which are inherited from the father may be automatically deactivated"

    this is a new finding that we are talking about.
    Full quote I guess is this:
    “Even if it comes from the X chromosome of the father, it gets deactivated."
    From X chromosome..

    What I am saying is - cognitive functions do not come exclusively from sex based chromosome which is just 1 of 23 chromosomes..

    Do you think autosomes do not contain genes enhancing/impacting cognitive functions?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    George Bernard Shaw may have anticipated this debate. A beautiful young society woman approached him at a party and said "George, with your intelligence and my looks, imagine the wonderful children we could have together." He replied "But, my dear, what if they have my looks and your intelligence?"

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