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Thread: Which languages brought early EV13 into SE Europe?

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Which languages brought early EV13 into SE Europe?

    Maciamos's position seems to be that it could have been brought by Mycaneans and also Dorians from Central Europe:

    "The first Indo-European migration to Greece was that of the Mycenaeans from c. 1650 BCE. The Dorians from Central Europe followed from c. 1200 BCE. Both could have brought different subclades of E-V13, and a founder effect or the phenomenon of elite dominance among the ruling invaders might have caused a fast growth of E-V13 lineage in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Greece."


    Greek's Indo-Iranian linguistic affinities make a central european origin difficult, and I don't understand how that can be reconciled without positing Indo-Iranians also in central europe that late in history. Important: Deep linguistic Indo-Iranian affinities, not just Iranic, which could be explained by some scythian tribe influence or something.

    If Greeks assimilated locals already in SE Europe and then by later dorian invasions they spread certain clades, thats a different matter, but so far J2a is the Mycenaean clade and EV13 as of yet cannot be considered related to them considering it isnt found in any ancient Mycenaean samples and the low pre-Dorian TMRCA EV13 in greece.

    Thus early EV13 is unlikely to have been brought by Geeks. What other candidates are there?


    Obviously the best candidates are illyrians/messapics & thracians:

    "The Indo-European migrations would certainly have brought some E-V13 early on, from circa 2500 BCE. But the history of the region is so complex that there might be many separate branches of E-V13 that each came with a different invasion (e.g. Iranic tribes, La Tène Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs)."

    It mentions Iranics, Celts, Goths, Slavs but no Illyrians.

    Illyro-Messapic-Albanian is a unique branch of the IE languages, and needs to be taken into account and mentioned here. Especially since Messapians had cities in Italic peninsula where there is high EV13.

    The Messapic language is not in the Italic or Greek branch it is in a branch with Albanian and Illyrian. Albanian is one of the 10 branches of Indo-European languages, and cannot just be skipped. Same goes for Thracian.

    Its like studying the solar system's gravity and just omitting some of the planets, and then wondering why the orbit paths of the remaining planets aren't making sense.


    It is also the neatest explanation since from the linguistic point of view the Illyric branch is a central european branch, with Balto-Slavic branch to its east and Germanic to its west.

    Also, what is the best explanation for this part as this struck me quite odd:

    "What is surprising with E-V13 is that it is as common in R1a-dominant as in R1b-dominant countries."

    How can EV13 have more Proto-Indo-European continuity than either R1a or R1b?

    These quotes are from Maciamo's EV13 article here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...-DNA.shtml#V13
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, this is all complete speculation.

    We have lineages immediately preceding E-V13 in Europe in the Neolithic. Who the first man was who carried E-V13 was, if I were going to guess, somewhere in Tripolye. Who the people were who carried it to your specific ancestors and therefore what language they spoke is for now unknowable.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, this is all complete speculation.

    We have lineages immediately preceding E-V13 in Europe in the Neolithic. Who the first man was who carried E-V13 was, if I were going to guess, somewhere in Tripolye. Who the people were who carried it to your specific ancestors and therefore what language they spoke is for now unknowable.
    Yes that's absolutely true. As it is also true for Maciamo's article, which omitted Illyrians and Thracians despite mentioning Goths, Slavs, and even Iranic tribes.

    We can speculate within rational confines and construct a probability chart about which language branches are less likely to have brought different clades of EV13. Chinese has a very low probability.

    Illyric and Thracian languages have a high probability in my opinion. Messapic crossed the adriatic from the balkans in the 9th century BC according to enough scholars, and EV13 in Apulia and up the coast is higher, so its fair game to speculate. If we have TMRCA's of specific clades in apulia for example that line up with Messapic entrance then we can link those clades with messapians.

    Here is the part about EV13 in SE Europe:

    "Due to the scarcity of full genomic sequences available from the Balkans, it is not yet clear when E-V13 expanded in that region. The Indo-European migrations would certainly have brought some E-V13 early on, from circa 2500 BCE. But the history of the region is so complex that there might be many separate branches of E-V13 that each came with a different invasion (e.g. Iranic tribes, La Tène Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs). The first Indo-European migration to Greece was that of the Mycenaeans from c. 1650 BCE. The Dorians from Central Europe followed from c. 1200 BCE. Both could have brought different subclades of E-V13, and a founder effect or the phenomenon of elite dominance among the ruling invaders might have caused a fast growth of E-V13 lineage in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Greece."

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    Something which further problematizes a central european origin of Greek is Mycenaean Y-Dna being J2a.

    This fits perfectly the model proposed by Eric Hamp in 2013 where Greek is originally part of a Helleno-Armenian branch around Georgia in the Black Sea Coast Caucasus, where there is plenty of J2a.

    But it doesn't fit well a central european origin, where we don't see J2a, nor any sort of trail of it going south.



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