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Thread: Çatalhöyük: 9,000 years ago, a community with modern urban problems

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    Çatalhöyük: 9,000 years ago, a community with modern urban problems



    https://phys.org/news/2019-06-atalhy...-problems.html

    so far the myth of peacefull farmers :

    In a sample of 93 skulls from Çatalhöyük, more than one-fourth—25 individuals—showed evidence of healed fractures. And 12 of them had been victimized more than once, with two to five injuries over a period of time. The shape of the lesions suggested that blows to the head from hard, round objects caused them—and clay balls of the right size and shape were also found at the site.

    More than half of the victims were women (13 women, 10 men). And most of the injuries were on the top or back of their heads, suggesting the victims were not facing their assailants when struck.

    "We found an increase in cranial injuries during the Middle period, when the population was largest and most dense," Larsen said.

    "An argument could be made that overcrowding led to elevated stress and conflict within the community."

    there is peace as long as there is plenty and abundance
    when scarcity comes, no need for raiding herder tribes to come in
    in the end, if the raiders don't come in, the farmers start to kill themselves

    it was the same in the end with LBK farmers

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Honestly, Bicicleur, no one still believes that Gimbutas was correct and that farmers were all anti-violent hippies. I, personally, never believed it. You're "flogging a dead horse" to use a terrible American saying.

    None of that changes the fact that the Indo-Europeans were horribly violent and the warrior cult stems from their culture. The level of violence archaeologists and anthropologists see in the remains of steppe people in their "home" territories is horrifying. I know you know that and have read the papers. We've even discussed it, so I won't bother getting the papers for the citations. Other people have pointed it out to you as well. It is NOT a coincidence that the "local" male yDna was obliterated. There's just no getting around it, and we see evidence of the violence, although I'm sure making some of the men slaves with no access to women was part of the situation.

    I mean, look at the Amerindians. They didn't live in cities. Look at the inter-tribal violence, for goodness' sakes, or the papers which look at violence among hunter-gatherer remains.


    The same applies to the fact that the plague was brought by the "Indo-European speakers". You at first insisted it arose in the crowded settlements of "Old Europe". Yet, every outbreak of plague has been traced to rodents of the European and Central Asian steppe, and the authors of the many papers also say it arose in the steppe and was BROUGHT to Europe, where indeed the crowded conditions in the settlements of "Old Europe" allowed it to spread like wild fire. Even without all that, the fact that the steppe people, and more northeast Europeans than southern Europeans, contain a mutation conferring a little more immunity, should have told you the first emergence had to be further east.

    I think you should reconsider how you approach these two issues.


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    Not surprising indeed. Especially when they are farmers, the max product they would get is capped unless they find more fields. So the growth in population would create scarcity.

    What would keep abundance up and what not in an agriculture society?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonade View Post
    Not surprising indeed. Especially when they are farmers, the max product they would get is capped unless they find more fields. So the growth in population would create scarcity.

    What would keep abundance up and what not in an agriculture society?
    It depends on the context. If you have climate change, i.e. drier conditions and/or colder conditions, or depleted soil, which make the yields smaller year after year, as happened in northern Italy with Terramare, a Bronze Age culture, the depleted population numbers tend to retreat to river sides and build new settlements. Or they turn to herding rather than farming, as it is theorized by some archaeologists happened in "Old Europe" before the steppe. Or, the depleted population tries to move.

    It's the same with pastoral societies. If it gets dry enough and there is not enough grass for your animals you move to where conditions are better, and if it's already occupied, too bad. That happened in the Middle East as well as in the advance of the Indo-Europeans in Europe.

    People are people. They react to stressors in the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Honestly, Bicicleur, no one still believes that Gimbutas was correct and that farmers were all anti-violent hippies. I, personally, never believed it. You're "flogging a dead horse" to use a terrible American saying.
    None of that changes the fact that the Indo-Europeans were horribly violent and the warrior cult stems from their culture. The level of violence archaeologists and anthropologists see in the remains of steppe people in their "home" territories is horrifying. I know you know that and have read the papers. We've even discussed it, so I won't bother getting the papers for the citations. Other people have pointed it out to you as well. It is NOT a coincidence that the "local" male yDna was obliterated. There's just no getting around it, and we see evidence of the violence, although I'm sure making some of the men slaves with no access to women was part of the situation.
    I mean, look at the Amerindians. They didn't live in cities. Look at the inter-tribal violence, for goodness' sakes, or the papers which look at violence among hunter-gatherer remains.
    The same applies to the fact that the plague was brought by the "Indo-European speakers". You at first insisted it arose in the crowded settlements of "Old Europe". Yet, every outbreak of plague has been traced to rodents of the European and Central Asian steppe, and the authors of the many papers also say it arose in the steppe and was BROUGHT to Europe, where indeed the crowded conditions in the settlements of "Old Europe" allowed it to spread like wild fire. Even without all that, the fact that the steppe people, and more northeast Europeans than southern Europeans, contain a mutation conferring a little more immunity, should have told you the first emergence had to be further east.
    I think you should reconsider how you approach these two issues.
    Sorry for flogging the dead horse then. But explain me what you mean by 'the warrior cult'. It certainly wasn't unique.
    You are probably referring to the rituals of the Khvalynsk people which were quite odd. Was it a warrior culture?
    Neither the Khvalynsk nor the Dnjepr-Donets were ancestral to Yamna, the first had Siberian admixture, the latter EEF admixture, Yamna had none of that.
    Earliest Corded Ware didn't have EEF either, but soon after acquired 25 % EEF.
    There is the massacre of the Globular Amphora tribe, but was corded ware a warrior culture with it's origins in the steppe or was it a war on territories and resources? You tell me.
    Was Bell Beaker a warrior culture? You tell me.
    Sintashta was a warrior culture. Certainly some warriors spread from there, maybe even became mercenairies and horse trainers among Mitanni or allied warlords to the Kassites.
    They certainly must have been in high demand over there, because there were already many warlike states and tribes before they arrived.
    But the majority of the Andronovo that spread from Sintashta were not warriors.
    The BMAC fortresses and cities crumbled after arrival of Andronovo, but there are no signs of destruction.
    What happened? You tell me.
    There certainly was a warrior cult in some Indo-European societies, but that does not mean that most of the Indo-European expansions were warlike.

    The Y-DNA replacement is not unique.
    Bantoes have specific Y-DNA, the Malawi HG and I'm sure many others got completely whipped out.
    Rice farmers spreading from China all over south-east Asia are all haplo O.
    Much more recently E-M81 took over all of the Maghreb - till they were overrun or most of them exiled to the more remote mountain areas by the Arabs.
    I mentioned before how the Ojibwe first acquired Y-DNA R1b and then spread it over vast territories because they were in the possesion of firearms.
    Yes, the Bell Beakers probably spread a lot of R1b-P312 replacing other Y-DNA. But can you tell me how they did it?
    Yes they probably had some elite priviliges as existed in large parts of the world at that time, and still exist in some remote parts of the world today.

    As for the plague, I don't know why you bring this up here.
    I didn't insist it happened in Old Europe, that was suggested by the authors of the study.
    I simply pointed out that the numbers of farmer settlements in Western and Central Europe decreased sharply around 5,3 ka.
    I made that observation even before Yersenia Pestis was discovered in 4,9 ka Gökhem.
    If it was brought by Indo-European speakers which you assume as a certain fact, explain the 4,9 ka Gökhem Yersenia Pestis.
    May I remind you that the TMRCA for the Yersenia Pestis strand that spread was 5,9 ka.

    Well, maybe I am clogging a dead horse but still many prejudices persist.

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    Let's be real...Neolithic (this includes EEF, Iran, and Levant Neolithic) and steppe societies were not always peaceful. I cannot imagine the "y-replacement" in Europe to be a result of anything other than a band of steppe people with their weaponry and horses (fast 1000 lb animals) annihilating the men with these advantages. And this is not to say Neolithic communities were nothing but peaceful love doves either. I can imagine violence erupting due to jealousy of one family having more crops and livestock than another who lost livestock or crops due to disease or some other unfortunate event (and if they had the same weaponry and horses, who knows what they would've done with these?)

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    The narrative of the article is really non-adapted village life to sedentary conditions. Diseases, chronical bone deformations, and intra-violence (blows from the back) are connected with overcrowded conditions.

    The most interesting find for me was lack of family relationships inside one residency. But something similar was already observed in early Lepinski Vir culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Let's be real...Neolithic (this includes EEF, Iran, and Levant Neolithic) and steppe societies were not always peaceful. I cannot imagine the "y-replacement" in Europe to be a result of anything other than a band of steppe people with their weaponry and horses (fast 1000 lb animals) annihilating the men with these advantages. And this is not to say Neolithic communities were nothing but peaceful love doves either. I can imagine violence erupting due to jealousy of one family having more crops and livestock than another who lost livestock or crops due to disease or some other unfortunate event (and if they had the same weaponry and horses, who knows what they would've done with these?)
    4,5 ka R1b Bell Beakers arrived on the British Isles and in the Netherlands.
    Overnight the population DNA switched to 90% Bell Beakers and 10 % farmers.
    What happened? Was it a particularly violent period?
    There are no traces of large or systematic destructions or raids.
    The Stonehenge traditions remained intact for more than 1000 years after the Bell Beakers arrival.
    Strange, no?

    A band of steppe people with their weaponry and horses (fast 1000 lb animals) annihilating the men.
    It has become a cliché. It happened sometimes. But it shouldn't be generalized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mha View Post
    The narrative of the article is really non-adapted village life to sedentary conditions. Diseases, chronical bone deformations, and intra-violence (blows from the back) are connected with overcrowded conditions.
    The most interesting find for me was lack of family relationships inside one residency. But something similar was already observed in early Lepinski Vir culture.
    Could it be that the farmers that arrived 8,5 ka in Barcin and the Balkans from Central Anatolia were fleeing from overcrowded populations, deteroriating environments and violence?
    After LGM the Konya plain was moist and covered with swamps, a HG paradise. Now it is desert-like

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not sure that there is any necessary connection between large, dense population centres and violence, stress or ill-health. Take the world's largest ever megacity, Greater Tokyo, with a population of 38 million. That's probably larger than the population of the whole world until around the 2nd millennium BC. Yet the crime rate (including the murder rate) in Tokyo is among the lowest in the world, and very low by historical standards. The life expectancy of the citizens of Tokyo is among the highest in the world. Factors such as social cohesion, public health measures and economic stability are much more important than population density.

    Tokyo has had more than it's fair share of traumas in the last hundred years, including the devastating 1923 earthquake that killed more than 100,000, and the American fire-bombing of 9-10 March 1945 that also killed 100,000 and destroyed much of the city. However, the post-war combination of economic prosperity and political and social stability means that the densely populated megacity is one of the safest, healthiest and least violent places in the world today.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    4,5 ka R1b Bell Beakers arrived on the British Isles and in the Netherlands.
    Overnight the population DNA switched to 90% Bell Beakers and 10 % farmers.
    What happened? Was it a particularly violent period?
    There are no traces of large or systematic destructions or raids.
    The Stonehenge traditions remained intact for more than 1000 years after the Bell Beakers arrival.
    Strange, no?

    A band of steppe people with their weaponry and horses (fast 1000 lb animals) annihilating the men.
    It has become a cliché. It happened sometimes. But it shouldn't be generalized.
    Perhaps you'd like to discuss it with Kristiansen and all the other leading authors of research into the coming of the steppe people, who have access to unpublished samples.

    "The migrants’ ultimate source was a group of livestock herders called the Yamnaya who occupied the Eurasian steppe north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains. Britain wasn’t their only destination. Between 5000 and 4000 years ago, the Yamnaya and their descendants colonised swathes of Europe, leaving a genetic legacy that persists to this day. Their arrival coincided with profound social and cultural changes. Burial practices shifted dramatically, a warrior class appeared, and there seems to have been a sharp upsurge in lethal violence.I’ve become increasingly convinced there must have been a kind of genocide,” says Kristian Kristiansen at the University of Gothenburg, Sweden."
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-ancient-dna/

    Are we clear about what he and the other researchers think? Yes, there was violence in late Neolithic Europe, stressed by climate change, scarcity, disease. However, there was an INCREASE in violence, and don't let's fool ourselves, the steppe people were stressed by scarcity of their own, scarcity of grass for their herds, also because of climate change.

    Do people just ignore all the papers I post here about these discoveries?

    Kristiansen repeats the same thin in lectures, and adds that they've found instances of such mass violence in the wake of the steppe people. They probably just haven't published yet.

    You can also go back and take a look at the paper about the massacre of the GAC village:

    This is what I quoted on that thread, and my conclusion:

    "Well, they were already mostly herders, and mobile, and patrilineal. So much for the newcomers brought a better adapted life style for survival.

    "Although it is impossible to identify the culprits of the massacre that took place at Koszyce around 2880–2776 BCE, it is interesting to note that it occurred right around the time when the Corded Ware complex started to spread rapidly across large parts of Central Europe, and it seems plausible that the group from Koszyce fell victim to some violent intergroup conflict related to the territorial expansion of Corded Ware groups or another competing group in the area. If the general interaction between Globular Amphora people and neighboring, steppe-related cultures (including early Corded Ware) was primarily hostile, it would explain why Globular Amphora individuals carry no steppe ancestry and, in part, why Europe experienced such a dramatic reduction in Neolithic genomic ancestry at this time (7, 17)."

    Of course, such violence occurred between Neolithic groups as well in times of scarcity. This is how human beings behave."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...late+neolithic

    This has been repeated by the authors in interviews since. I've posted it. Honestly, I don't know how long I'm going to continue posting scholastic material on this site. If no one reads it, or chooses to ignore it, what, precisely, is the point.

    HUOTE]It has become a cliché. It happened sometimes. But it shouldn't be generalized.
    [/QUOTE]

    Really? It only happened sometimes? Where, pray tell, did their arrival NOT result in the decimation or at least severe disruption of the local y lines, but the continuation of the mtDna? Britain? Spain? France? LBK territory as a whole? Hungary? The Balkans? India? WHERE?

    That isn't logical argumentation, Bicicleur, and you must know it, as an educated man who has read these papers. The only places the local y dna lines WEREN'T decimated was where the steppe people were SEVERELY outnumbered, and/or the "host" society was still relatively strong. So, yes, it helped if the area suffered in immediately prior times from some depopulation and consequent weakness and disease. It helped if the steppe people weren't currently experienced an outbreak of the plague. Invaders wait for the victims to be in a weakened state if possible.

    As for why Stonehenge continued, as I said, it's men who were either killed or enslaved and prevented from procreating. After the immediate blood lust was sated, some women were allowed to live; after being raped, of course.

    None of this is necessarily specific to the steppe people, for goodness sakes, and I never implied that it is. That's a complete straw man argument. I have always given numerous examples of it happening throughout human history. I don't play biased games like that. I've always said: look at ISIS and the Yezidi: kill all the men, even the very young men, and make sexual slaves of the women, women who will have children. Or, the Hutu and Tutsi just recently, the Balkan War where there was systematic use of rape as a weapon of war, and outright slaughter of men, or, for crying out loud, World War II, although they went one better and wanted to kill the women and children too. Look at Latin America as well. How much "native" y survived, especially in areas that weren't extremely heavily populated, although it happened even there. A hell of a lot of local mtDna survived, however. It's all over the place. Yes, some of it was because the men were enslaved and then worked to death, and were definitely prevented from procreating. The Turks made sure of it in a lot of cases by castrating the men. Does that make the steppe men good guys? Go all the way to the Old Testament for proof: what did the pastoral Hebrews do to the Canaanite farmers? What is the story of Cain and Abel about? In fact, that's a pretty good illustration of how pastoral societies do find waning farming societies easy pickings. It's the age old story of the less civilized periphery destroying the weakened civilized core. So, your argument is a complete straw man one. My question is why should the steppe people be exempt? Because they're considered the ancestors of "white" Europeans? I think World War II should prove that white Europeans shouldn't be making any lofty claims about relative virtue.

    As for the plague, I brought it up because it was part of the process of the advance of the steppe people and because imo you seem to have misinterpreted the papers. What was hinted at in the papers has been made explicit in interviews by Kristiansen, Krause, and every other researcher who worked on those samples. Just google it. I don't make things up or massage the facts. They believe it originated on the steppe. It makes complete sense. It arose then, and has arisen in every subsequent outbreak since, in the steppes of Europe and Central Asia. The people who are exposed first are going to be the first among whom some people will show up with mutations for immunity. That's the steppe people. The same thing happened with the arrival of measles and mumps and even small pox in the New World. Hell, the poor Amerindians even died of intestinal flu and things like pneumonia.

    I really suggest everyone watch this speech by Kristiansen on the plague.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1C...C2Nv4q&index=2


    There is example after example, usually because of scarcity of resources of one kind or another, or just the desire to acquire more wealth (the Nazis wanted all that flat, fertile land possessed by the "lazy" and "stupid" Slavs, remember), but also sometimes just hatred of the "other", of whom one is jealous for one reason or another.

    Yet, with all the historical parallels, all the genetic proof we see, virtually EVERY place they arrived, the steppe Indo-Europeans are somehow LESS violent, less brutal than other invaders? Why? Why ignore all the evidence in their particular case?

    How, also, does the fact that other cultures have committed similar acts excuse the steppe people from doing it? Why, in their particular case, when it is so blatant, is it just a cliche?

    It sounds like special pleading for some "favored" group of yours.

    It makes absolutely no sense to me.

    As for your attempt to deny the violence on the steppe, the first signs of warrior cults among some groups rather than others, once again you're ignoring the many papers on the subject. Re-read David Anthony, for example. There's also the clear fact that we know that the "culture" of the people who arrived in Europe was an amalgamation of cultural influences from all these prior steppe groups. If it makes you feel any better, Kristiansen believes the initial seeds for this stratification around the possession of metal tools included weapons seeped onto the steppe came over the Caucasus, so if you want to keep believing in the noble savages of the steppe and even the WHG of western Europe as loving hippies, you go right ahead.

    As I said, I'm tired of posting paper after paper to which barely anyone pays attention.

    See how much there is to talk about if I just stop, as I'm sorely tempted to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Let's be real...Neolithic (this includes EEF, Iran, and Levant Neolithic) and steppe societies were not always peaceful. I cannot imagine the "y-replacement" in Europe to be a result of anything other than a band of steppe people with their weaponry and horses (fast 1000 lb animals) annihilating the men with these advantages. And this is not to say Neolithic communities were nothing but peaceful love doves either. I can imagine violence erupting due to jealousy of one family having more crops and livestock than another who lost livestock or crops due to disease or some other unfortunate event (and if they had the same weaponry and horses, who knows what they would've done with these?)
    almost certain they would have done similar. we know from mass graves at the end of the linear pottery culture that people back then were already extremely violent. who would have thought. really, at the end it just boils down to men who want a women and food. their cultural background didn't matter.

    in this mass grave from austria 7000 years ago there were maybe around 300 people. seems like it was a fight for young woman since they are underrepresented in the grave.
    https://combatarchaeology.org/the-ne...sparn-schletz/

    mass grave in kilianstädten. some of the victims have fractured legs probably because this way they were unable to run away or just for torture.
    https://www.archaeologie-online.de/n...staedten-2912/

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    another one from this period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talheim_Death_Pit
    Last edited by Ailchu; 28-06-19 at 23:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps you'd like to discuss it with Kristiansen and all the other leading authors of research into the coming of the steppe people, who have access to unpublished samples.

    "The migrants’ ultimate source was a group of livestock herders called the Yamnaya who occupied the Eurasian steppe north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains. Britain wasn’t their only destination. Between 5000 and 4000 years ago, the Yamnaya and their descendants colonised swathes of Europe, leaving a genetic legacy that persists to this day. Their arrival coincided with profound social and cultural changes. Burial practices shifted dramatically, a warrior class appeared, and there seems to have been a sharp upsurge in lethal violence.I’ve become increasingly convinced there must have been a kind of genocide,” says Kristian Kristiansen at the University of Gothenburg, Sweden."
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-ancient-dna/

    Are we clear about what he and the other researchers think? Yes, there was violence in late Neolithic Europe, stressed by climate change, scarcity, disease. However, there was an INCREASE in violence, and don't let's fool ourselves, the steppe people were stressed by scarcity of their own, scarcity of grass for their herds, also because of climate change.

    Do people just ignore all the papers I post here about these discoveries?

    Kristiansen repeats the same thin in lectures, and adds that they've found instances of such mass violence in the wake of the steppe people. They probably just haven't published yet.

    You can also go back and take a look at the paper about the massacre of the GAC village:

    This is what I quoted on that thread, and my conclusion:

    "Well, they were already mostly herders, and mobile, and patrilineal. So much for the newcomers brought a better adapted life style for survival.

    "Although it is impossible to identify the culprits of the massacre that took place at Koszyce around 2880–2776 BCE, it is interesting to note that it occurred right around the time when the Corded Ware complex started to spread rapidly across large parts of Central Europe, and it seems plausible that the group from Koszyce fell victim to some violent intergroup conflict related to the territorial expansion of Corded Ware groups or another competing group in the area. If the general interaction between Globular Amphora people and neighboring, steppe-related cultures (including early Corded Ware) was primarily hostile, it would explain why Globular Amphora individuals carry no steppe ancestry and, in part, why Europe experienced such a dramatic reduction in Neolithic genomic ancestry at this time (7, 17)."

    Of course, such violence occurred between Neolithic groups as well in times of scarcity. This is how human beings behave."

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...late+neolithic

    This has been repeated by the authors in interviews since. I've posted it. Honestly, I don't know how long I'm going to continue posting scholastic material on this site. If no one reads it, or chooses to ignore it, what, precisely, is the point.

    HUOTE]It has become a cliché. It happened sometimes. But it shouldn't be generalized.
    Really? It only happened sometimes? Where, pray tell, did their arrival NOT result in the decimation or at least severe disruption of the local y lines, but the continuation of the mtDna? Britain? Spain? France? LBK territory as a whole? Hungary? The Balkans? India? WHERE?

    That isn't logical argumentation, Bicicleur, and you must know it, as an educated man who has read these papers. The only places the local y dna lines WEREN'T decimated was where the steppe people were SEVERELY outnumbered, and/or the "host" society was still relatively strong. So, yes, it helped if the area suffered in immediately prior times from some depopulation and consequent weakness and disease. It helped if the steppe people weren't currently experienced an outbreak of the plague. Invaders wait for the victims to be in a weakened state if possible.

    As for why Stonehenge continued, as I said, it's men who were either killed or enslaved and prevented from procreating. After the immediate blood lust was sated, some women were allowed to live; after being raped, of course.

    None of this is necessarily specific to the steppe people, for goodness sakes, and I never implied that it is. That's a complete straw man argument. I have always given numerous examples of it happening throughout human history. I don't play biased games like that. I've always said: look at ISIS and the Yezidi: kill all the men, even the very young men, and make sexual slaves of the women, women who will have children. Or, the Hutu and Tutsi just recently, the Balkan War where there was systematic use of rape as a weapon of war, and outright slaughter of men, or, for crying out loud, World War II, although they went one better and wanted to kill the women and children too. Look at Latin America as well. How much "native" y survived, especially in areas that weren't extremely heavily populated, although it happened even there. A hell of a lot of local mtDna survived, however. It's all over the place. Yes, some of it was because the men were enslaved and then worked to death, and were definitely prevented from procreating. The Turks made sure of it in a lot of cases by castrating the men. Does that make the steppe men good guys? Go all the way to the Old Testament for proof: what did the pastoral Hebrews do to the Canaanite farmers? What is the story of Cain and Abel about? In fact, that's a pretty good illustration of how pastoral societies do find waning farming societies easy pickings. It's the age old story of the less civilized periphery destroying the weakened civilized core. So, your argument is a complete straw man one. My question is why should the steppe people be exempt? Because they're considered the ancestors of "white" Europeans? I think World War II should prove that white Europeans shouldn't be making any lofty claims about relative virtue.

    As for the plague, I brought it up because it was part of the process of the advance of the steppe people and because imo you seem to have misinterpreted the papers. What was hinted at in the papers has been made explicit in interviews by Kristiansen, Krause, and every other researcher who worked on those samples. Just google it. I don't make things up or massage the facts. They believe it originated on the steppe. It makes complete sense. It arose then, and has arisen in every subsequent outbreak since, in the steppes of Europe and Central Asia. The people who are exposed first are going to be the first among whom some people will show up with mutations for immunity. That's the steppe people. The same thing happened with the arrival of measles and mumps and even small pox in the New World. Hell, the poor Amerindians even died of intestinal flu and things like pneumonia.

    I really suggest everyone watch this speech by Kristiansen on the plague.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1C...C2Nv4q&index=2


    There is example after example, usually because of scarcity of resources of one kind or another, or just the desire to acquire more wealth (the Nazis wanted all that flat, fertile land possessed by the "lazy" and "stupid" Slavs, remember), but also sometimes just hatred of the "other", of whom one is jealous for one reason or another.

    Yet, with all the historical parallels, all the genetic proof we see, virtually EVERY place they arrived, the steppe Indo-Europeans are somehow LESS violent, less brutal than other invaders? Why? Why ignore all the evidence in their particular case?

    How, also, does the fact that other cultures have committed similar acts excuse the steppe people from doing it? Why, in their particular case, when it is so blatant, is it just a cliche?

    It sounds like special pleading for some "favored" group of yours.

    It makes absolutely no sense to me.

    As for your attempt to deny the violence on the steppe, the first signs of warrior cults among some groups rather than others, once again you're ignoring the many papers on the subject. Re-read David Anthony, for example. There's also the clear fact that we know that the "culture" of the people who arrived in Europe was an amalgamation of cultural influences from all these prior steppe groups. If it makes you feel any better, Kristiansen believes the initial seeds for this stratification around the possession of metal tools included weapons seeped onto the steppe came over the Caucasus, so if you want to keep believing in the noble savages of the steppe and even the WHG of western Europe as loving hippies, you go right ahead.

    As I said, I'm tired of posting paper after paper to which barely anyone pays attention.

    See how much there is to talk about if I just stop, as I'm sorely tempted to do.[/QUOTE]

    afaik there is more evidence published today about LBK mass graves than BB mass graves
    Kristiansen says that will change, let's wait and see
    I however don't understand his argument on mass graves being at irregular places not being found yet
    does this argument particularly apply to bronze age mass graves and not to neolithic mass graves?
    Kristiansen talks about abduction of women and the killing of males
    I'm sure it happened, but afaik the only documented case is Eulau, which ironically is about farmers doing this to a corded ware settlement
    I'd say the neolithic people were fighting the IE people as much as the other way around
    somehow the neolithic Y-DNA got extinct and the IE Y-DNA prevailed
    so, I'm not sure that 'the warrior cult' of the proto IE on the steppe is responsable for all the violence
    you claim they developped 'the warrior cult', I'd say a warrior cult
    Kristiansen and others speculate that Cucuteni-Tripolye is the origin of the plague, but he admits himself that this is speculation
    these Cucuteni-Tripolye are not the proto-IE steppe people
    he also links the 5.3 ka decline in farmers settlements to the plague, way before of the IE expansions out of the steppe
    that I already did myself even before 4.9 ka Gokhem Yersenia Pestis was discovered, you didn't agree with me
    when the 4.9 ka Gokhem Yersenia Pestis was discovered, you also didn't subscribe to the Cucuteni-Tripolye big towns theory,
    you kept on blaiming the IE steppe people
    Kristiansen says the IE BB expansions in Europe were male warriors, with few or no women
    that is contradicted in the paper about the arrival of BB ancestry in Iberia
    in the initial stage of 'invasion', BB ancestry was as high as 80 % and the women had higher BB ancestry than the males

    I agree with many of the views and speculations of Kristiansen
    but I don't think there is need to,
    when I bring up a thread about violence among early Anatolian farmers
    come up with the cliché that IE were 'horribly violent' and developped 'the warrior cult'

    you could say violence is universal

    and as Kristiansen also mentions, not all expansions were violent

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    The interiors of Çatalhöyük houses share a number of charac-teristics that inform our growing understanding of the conditionsof health and well-being in the community (37). For example,interior walls and floors were plastered and periodically replas-tered many times with white calcareous silty clay (38). Excavationof houses shows that floors were relatively debris-free. However,microstratigraphic analysis of house walls, floors, burials, andother contexts shows the presence of an appreciable volume ofanimal and human fecal matter (39–41). Moreover, refuse areas,latrines, and pens for domestic animals were in close proximity tohouses. Analysis of soil samples produced remains of parasite eggsand parasite egg fragments (39). Sheep are a common interme-diate host for parasites before human infestation (42) and repre-sented a major public health problem, much as they do in manysettings worldwide today. These circumstances indicate that hy-giene and health were likely compromised among communitymembers. The crowded living conditions peaking in the MiddlePeriod would have promoted the transmission of pathogens andincreased chances of localized tissue infections deriving fromcuts and abrasions of the skin leading to subperiosteal bone re-actions. In a similar fashion, ongoing commitment to productionand consumption of plant carbohydrates would have played acentral role in promoting oral pathological conditions, such asdental caries and periodontal disease, commonplace in pre-historic farming societies (11).

    I wonder what diseases these EEF brought to Europe
    did they affect the HG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Could it be that the farmers that arrived 8,5 ka in Barcin and the Balkans from Central Anatolia were fleeing from overcrowded populations, deteroriating environments and violence?
    After LGM the Konya plain was moist and covered with swamps, a HG paradise. Now it is desert-like
    Paleoenvironmental reconstruction of the Çatalhöyük land-scape at the time of the original settlement in the earlier Holo-cene coincides with a shift from humid to dryland conditions.This reconstruction makes a compelling case that localized areasin the floodplain surrounding the community were sufficientlydry for crops, as well as for exploitation of wood and clay re-sources (36, 54, 55).

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    Moreover, within Çatalhöyük, there is a pattern of lower dentalphenotypic variation in males than in females which documentsthe likelihood of patrilocal postmarital residence (61), an out-come having implications for movements of people, patterns ofgene flow, and the structuring of population based on womenmoving into the community.

    The clay 'mother statutes' found in CatalHoyuk was the argument for a neolithic matriarchial society.
    Now it's proven false.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    [/QUOTE]
    afaik there is more evidence published today about LBK mass graves than BB mass graves
    Kristiansen says that will change, let's wait and see
    I however don't understand his argument on mass graves being at irregular places not being found yet
    does this argument particularly apply to bronze age mass graves and not to neolithic mass graves?
    Kristiansen talks about abduction of women and the killing of males
    I'm sure it happened, but afaik the only documented case is Eulau, which ironically is about farmers doing this to a corded ware settlement
    I'd say the neolithic people were fighting the IE people as much as the other way around
    somehow the neolithic Y-DNA got extinct and the IE Y-DNA prevailed
    so, I'm not sure that 'the warrior cult' of the proto IE on the steppe is responsable for all the violence
    you claim they developped 'the warrior cult', I'd say a warrior cult
    Kristiansen and others speculate that Cucuteni-Tripolye is the origin of the plague, but he admits himself that this is speculation
    these Cucuteni-Tripolye are not the proto-IE steppe people
    he also links the 5.3 ka decline in farmers settlements to the plague, way before of the IE expansions out of the steppe
    that I already did myself even before 4.9 ka Gokhem Yersenia Pestis was discovered, you didn't agree with me
    when the 4.9 ka Gokhem Yersenia Pestis was discovered, you also didn't subscribe to the Cucuteni-Tripolye big towns theory,
    you kept on blaiming the IE steppe people
    Kristiansen says the IE BB expansions in Europe were male warriors, with few or no women
    that is contradicted in the paper about the arrival of BB ancestry in Iberia
    in the initial stage of 'invasion', BB ancestry was as high as 80 % and the women had higher BB ancestry than the males
    I agree with many of the views and speculations of Kristiansen
    but I don't think there is need to,
    when I bring up a thread about violence among early Anatolian farmers
    come up with the cliché that IE were 'horribly violent' and developped 'the warrior cult'
    you could say violence is universal
    and as Kristiansen also mentions, not all expansions were violent[/QUOTE]


    Since you seem to have not read what I posted, I'll repeat it:

    ""The migrants’ ultimate source was a group of livestock herders called the Yamnaya who occupied the Eurasian steppe north of the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains. Britain wasn’t their only destination. Between 5000 and 4000 years ago, the Yamnaya and their descendants colonised swathes of Europe, leaving a genetic legacy that persists to this day. Their arrival coincided with profound social and cultural changes. Burial practices shifted dramatically, a warrior class appeared, and there seems to have been a sharp upsurge in lethal violence.I’ve become increasingly convinced there must have been a kind of genocide,” says Kristian Kristiansen at the University of Gothenburg, Sweden."
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-ancient-dna/
    How much clearer does he have to be? Do you see the phrase UPSURGE in lethal violence? Added to the disappearance of y lines? What happened to them? OK. maybe not all of them were whacked over the head with clubs. Maybe some of them were enslaved and forbidden from reproducing. The result is the same. This has happened all over the world and with all kinds of ethnic groups. Why, despite all the evidence, do you refuse to admit it happened here?

    Or, please re-listen to this, starting from 12:30. He absolutely could not be clearer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1C...C2Nv4q&index=2

    You've also completely misunderstood the data in his paper on the plague. His group first found it there. Clearly it was a good place to spread. That doesn't PROVE it originated there, even if that was his first instinct. Surely you understand that?

    Subsequent papers placed the origin of the most virulent strains, as it always was, and continued to be in every subsequent plague since, on the steppe.

    See:Analysis of 3800-year-old Yersinia pestisgenomes suggests Bronze Age origin for bubonic plague

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04550-9



    "Today, plague has a near-worldwide distribution and is maintained within sylvatic rodent populations9. Although several of these rodent reservoirs were established during the third plague pandemic that began in 19th century China10,11, many of those identified in Central and East Asia and MOST NOTABLY those of the CASPIAN SEA region harbour Y. pestis strains that occupy BASAL POSITIONS IN THE PHYLOGENGY (i.e., 0.PE2)12. This supports the idea of these foci having persisted for millennia12,13,14,15. What remains unknown, however, is the time period and processes involved in their establishment, and the level of Y. pestisgenetic diversity harboured within them during the early phases of its evolution."

    "
    The central steppe region seems to have played a significant role as a migration corridor during the entire Bronze Age, and as such, it likely facilitated the spread of human-associated pathogens, such as Y. pestis, across Eurasia. Here, we explore additional Y. pestis diversity in that region by isolating strains from LBA Samara, in Russia. We identify a Y. pestis lineage contemporaneous to the LNBA strains with genomic variants consistent with flea adaptation. This reveals the co-circulation of two Y. pestis lineages during the Bronze Age with different properties in terms of their transmission and disease potentials."

    The title of Krause' first map:

    "
    Analysis of 3800-year-old Yersinia pestis genomes suggests Bronze Age origin for bubonic plague"


    "Moreover, during a first assessment of coverage across the plasmids (Supplementary Table 3), it became apparent that RT5 and RT6 harbour the 1.8 kb Yersinia murine toxin (ymt) gene locus on the pMT1 plasmid (Fig. 2a), which encodes for a virulence factor essential for the colonisation of the flea’s midgut. This gene is absent in all previously sequenced LNBA strains2,3, though it has been identified in a later Iron Age individual (~2900 BP) from modern-day Armenia (RISE397) (Fig. 2a)2."

    "
    our analysis suggests that RISE397 and RT5 are closely related strains and potentially originated from the same progenitor (Supplementary Fig. 4). The node which gave rise to RT5 and perhaps also RISE397 seems to have initiated a radiation event that gave rise to all historical and extant Y. pestis lineages that have been isolated to date, with the exception of the more basal 0.PE2, 0.PE7 and LNBA (Fig. 2b, Supplementary Fig. 4)."

    "
    While the constant size method is unlikely to represent a realistic demographic history model for epidemic pathogens, it has often been a preferred dating method2,3,12. Here, it produced a coalescent date estimate of 6797y BP (HPD 95%: 5299–8743) for Y. pestis, which is about 2000 years older than the oldest strains thus far identified2,3 (Supplementary Table 9). In contrast, the coalescent skyline method, which allows for population size changes through time, produced a narrower interval and a younger tMRCA estimated at 5727y BP (HPD 95%: 4909–6842) (Supplementary Fig. 6, Supplementary Table 9)."

    I think we can reasonably deduce that y pestis did NOT originate in Cucuteni Tripolye, and certainly NOT the easily transmitted and devastating disease we call bubonic plague.

    To continue:

    "
    In addition, we manually explored the status of ureD, PDE-2, PDE-3 and rcsA, all of which have been either lost or inactivated in Y. pestis by substitution or single-nucleotide InDels. The inactivation of these genes contributes to Y. pestis’ ability to colonise, block and be transmitted via fleas (for more details, see Methods)19,45. Their active variants have been identified in previously published LNBA strains2,3, thus suggesting either an inability or a lower efficiency in arthropod-based transmission. By contrast, we find that RT5 possessed the inactive form of all those genes, with the exception of a nonsense mutation in PDE-3 where it shows the ancestral allele (Supplementary Fig. 9). Together with the active ymt locus on the pMT1 plasmid (Fig. 2a), this suggests that RT5 was already adapted to the flea vector during the Bronze Age. Moreover, immune evasion by suppression of flagellar genes in Y. pestis is considered an important evolutionary advantage associated to a more complex niche adaptation that is absent in its closest ancestor Y. pseudotuberculosis46. The flhD regulatory gene is part of the flhDC operon and is expressed in a temperature-dependent manner in Y. pseudotuberculosis46, but is inactive in all extant and historical Y. pestis strains sequenced to date. Although the strains belonging to the LNBA lineage encompass the active variant of flhD, RT5 contains the derived, inactive form (Supplementary Fig. 9)."

    " Population genetic analysis identified individual RT5 as having close genetic affinity to EBA European populations and MLBA populations from the Eurasian steppe region (Fig. 1b). In particular, we show the presence of Yamnaya-related as well as farmer-related ancestry in RT5 (Fig. 1c)."

    "Compared to the recently published LNBA isolates2,3, RT5 and RT6 form a distinct branch in the Y. pestis phylogeny (Fig. 2b), deriving from a polytomy that gave rise to at least three separate lineages, two of which have persisted to the present day. RT5 falls only five derived SNPs away from the described polytomy (Supplementary Table 7). Our dating analyses consistently suggest the presence of this putative ancestor at ~4000y BP (Supplementary Fig. 6) followed by a population expansion shortly after that time (Supplementary Fig. 7). Though its place of origin is not yet empirically identified, given the close genetic and temporal affinity to RT5 (Fig. 2b), a steppe source is plausible. "
    In the interests of full disclosure, patient zero carries my mtDna, U2e2a1, which, as it happens, has almost no immunity to either plague or HIV.

    "
    Note that the modern 0.PE2 and 0.PE7 lineages, which are known to possess all genomic characteristics that confer adaptation to fleas19, fall ancestral to RT5 (Fig. 2b) and RISE397 (Supplementary Fig. 4), but are more derived than the LNBA lineage. Our phylogenetic and dating results thus suggest that 0.PE2 and 0.PE7 also originated during the Bronze Age, with their mean divergence here estimated to 4474 (HPD 95%: 3936–5158) and 5237 (HPD 95%: 4248–6346) years BP, respectively, based on the Bayesian skyline model (Supplementary Table 9). While these lineages may have been confined to sylvatic rodent reservoirs during the EBA, the possibility that they co-circulated among human populations contemporaneously with the LNBA lineage should be considered. Although the places of origin of 0.PE2 and 0.PE7 are not known, today, their strains are isolated from modern-day China and the Caucasus region. In terms of their disease potential, both 0.PE2 and 0.PE7 possess pMT1 plasmids with fully functional ymt genes, but 0.PE2 strains lack pPCP144, and though frequently recovered from sylvatic rodent reservoirs, their virulence in humans is not known. On the other hand, the more basal 0.PE7 contains pPCP12 and has previously been associated with human bubonic plague12. It is, therefore, tempting to hypothesise that efficient flea adaptation in Y. pestis, as well as the potential for bubonic disease, might have evolved earlier than 5000 years ago."

    Is that enough??? Nice to have a biologist turn population geneticist.

    Now no one can claim not to have read the data.

    If anyone chooses not to believe it, for whatever reason, be my guest.

    I have no further interest in discussing the topic. I have enough to do with science deniers on other topics.
    Last edited by Angela; 01-07-19 at 03:26.

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