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Thread: Philistine DNA!

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    How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

    Ashkenazi_Jew

    EEF,29.2
    Levant_N,26.6
    Yamnaya,24.2
    Iran_N,12
    Anatolia_N,6
    Iberomaurusian,1.2
    East_Asian,0.8

    That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?

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    But basically, from the data presented it's almost certain the Philistines were Aegean in origin. And even Netanyahu came out and said the same.

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    I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

    Ashkenazi_Jew

    EEF,29.2
    Levant_N,26.6
    Yamnaya,24.2
    Iran_N,12
    Anatolia_N,6
    Iberomaurusian,1.2
    East_Asian,0.8

    That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?
    All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

    i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

    i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe
    Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

    The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:




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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.
    O.K. I misunderstood.

    However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I do not know if it helps
    I found these

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/archae...uge-from-saul/

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/know-t...e-philistines/



    ''Cautious not to over-reach from the study’s general impressions, Master said that there are “better matches from Crete,” emphasizing that until there are more samples available, “at the moment we cannot prove the specific location from whence they came.”

    Once they arrived in the region that would be named Philistia, the Philistine migrants began intermarrying — or at least “inter-procreating,” quipped Master — with the local population. By 1000 BCE, their genes are almost indistinguishable.

    According to Choongwon Jeong of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, one of the corresponding authors of the study, by analyzing later Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon, the researchers found that the European-related component could no longer be traced. “Within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine related gene pool,” said Jeong.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    O.K. I misunderstood.

    However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.
    I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
    This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
    I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

    Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
    25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
    This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


    The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
    I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?
    Of predominant descent yes. But the idea of partial heritage is still open. I don’t doubt the bulk of AJ ancestry is common to all other Western Jews though, just I think the Khazars are responsible for increased Steppe ancestry and lighter pigmentation amongst AJs as compared to for example Sephardim (who actually mixed a lot more with their surrounding populations than AJs). Most other people would say this was from Eastern Europeans but the paucity of WHG ancestry amongst other things (they are LESS redhaired than AJs by quite a bit) leads me to believe admixture with e.g. Poles was smaller than most think.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.
    You never quoted me or responded to my post directly.
    If you did, I would tell you that I never referred to PCA in my post, and the usage of "cline" in population genetics is not synonymous with PCA.
    Also, Ashkenazim are not just random lurkers with Graeco-Romans on a PCA, their Jewish/Graeco-Roman interconnections go back to ancient Levant.
    At the time of the Maccabean Revolt in 167–160 BCE large populations of Judeans were already Hellenized and assimilated into Greek culture.
    Jewish populations have lived in Graeco-Roman Europe for well over 2000 years.
    Ashkenazi Haplogroups are also in play, many are of ambiguous origins, like my own paternal Haplogroup of J2aM67.
    Go take a look at Crete/Marche and Abruzzo and their levels of J2aM67, is this a mere coincidence?
    Last edited by Joker; 09-07-19 at 13:38. Reason: Typographical error

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
    This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
    I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

    Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
    25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
    This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


    The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
    I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.
    Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

    I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

    Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

    I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

    Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?
    The European mother's/Levantine father's model of Ashkenazim is crude and not accurate at all, in my opinion.
    A GedMatch modeling of 50% Lebanese Christian/50% Northern Italian is misleading and wholly incorrect, in my opinion.
    Ashkenazim non European paternal lines look more Transcaucasian/Anatolian/Kurdish/Iranian, than like most most modern Levantine groups.

    50% of Ashkenazim J2 is either J2aM67 or J2aM92, both of which may very well be of Southern European origin.

    Haplogroup G2 appears almost exclusively in eastern Ashkenazim, comprising approximately 2% of the results (Behar et al. 2004b, Supplementary Material).


    Haplogroup G-M201 is found at high frequencies among populations of the Caucasus and Georgia and may have originated in that region (Cinnioglu et al. 2004). The modal haplotype shown in Table 4 was found in 14 out of 34 Ashkenazi results, with an additional 5 results only a single-step mutation away, 10-Locus Haplotype (Behar et al 2004b, supplementary material).
    ***Can't post the link, my account is under 10 posts.

    According to the findings of Behar (2004b, Supplementary Material), R1b comprises 44 out of 442 results, or nearly 10% of Ashkenazi results. Additionally, Behar (2004b) reports that the highly-admixed Dutch Jews have 26.1% R1b results.
    Haplogroup I (I-P19) comprises 18 out of 442 results, or approximately 4% of the Ashkenazi results. Thus, haplogroups R1b and I among Ashkenazi Jews comprise almost 15% of the DNA results.


    R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
    How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
    Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.

    I do agree that Ashkenazim paternal lines are majority non European, but the European paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazim are minimized and largely relegated to the dust bin of population genetics, and very rarely investigated in depth.
    Many of the non European "Middle Eastern" paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazi Jews are far from homogeneous to the Levant.
    Last edited by Joker; 09-07-19 at 16:50. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
    How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
    Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.
    Vast majority of AJ R1a is R-Y2619 under R-Z93>CTS6 with a TMRCA of just 1350 ybp. As CTS6 has significant basal diversity in Iran, it seems they might be of proto-Persian descend, thus far of any Z93 clades CTS6 has by far the biggest claim for that..
    So ironically Netanyahu is likely proto-Persian. Jewish scriptures spoke favorably of Cyrus, so this clade might have been assimilated during that time..
    Two R-Z93 clades were found in Khazar burials, and I haven't seen any Jews clustering with them.

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    All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.
    the strange is that this can not be done,
    that little 0-5 % that is found in people who have major even Balkan heritage,
    is enough to open theories, until is full analyzed,
    and this 0-5% is found notin low % of populations,
    But in big %
    and I doupt that population in Greece or balkans have origins from AJ's
    but that 0-5% is reaching numbers above expected in this area, (unoffially i hear about 40-60%)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.
    If two countries are adjacent to each other geographically and plot genetically next to each other on a PCA, then the same ancient populations contributed to both or they contributed to each other genetically. Probably it's both.

    That's how it normally works and everyone knows it. It's completely different from the offspring of two parents from far corners of the world, i.e. China and Britain, winding up next to Uighurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If two countries are adjacent to each other geographically and plot genetically next to each other on a PCA, then the same ancient populations contributed to both or they contributed to each other genetically. Probably it's both.

    That's how it normally works and everyone knows it. It's completely different from the offspring of two parents from far corners of the world, i.e. China and Britain, winding up next to Uighurs.
    Yes, but without a full autosomal record of all the populations that have existed in the surrounding region from the time in question until today, it is impossible to confidently determine which populations contributed and when. The data is still thin and there are several competing theories even about the temporary European contribution to Philistines. The permanent European component of a population that lived in Europe for centuries and might have neighbored Philistines 3000 years ago... it might be an entirely unrelated matter, who knows.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here's an article by Razib Kahn, addressing the data set used in the Phillistine paper:

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/...s-yes-they-do/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

    The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:



    Ashkenazim are heavily admixed with Europeans.
    One can't look at modern Arabians or Arabized populations of the Levant to infer what ancient Jews may have looked like.

    Phenotype does not equal genotype.
    Natalie Portman (left) is Ashkenazi Jewish, right is Keira Knightly, she is English, Scottish, Welsh.
    Both look like sisters, despite the fact that their genetic backgrounds are quite divergent.

  21. #46
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    I am still a firm believer that you have to take "origins" with a grain of salt. In one family, father and mother show zero Jewish ancestry (99% and 98% eu results), and one of five children shows 9%. Other four children show 0% (97-100% eu results). It is the combination of inherited gene's that gives the appearance of origin. Until we have a much greater database

  22. #47
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheal View Post
    I am still a firm believer that you have to take "origins" with a grain of salt. In one family, father and mother show zero Jewish ancestry (99% and 98% eu results), and one of five children shows 9%. Other four children show 0% (97-100% eu results). It is the combination of inherited gene's that gives the appearance of origin. Until we have a much greater database
    Did they test with 23andme, Wheal? One thing they're excellent at is finding Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. I've never seen it wrong. Other companies, like Geno etc., or that stupid Eurogenes "J" test, are TERRIBLE. :)

  23. #48
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    No Angela, they tested with FTdna. and all of the children are dna confirmed. I think it is just a combination of early Spanish, German and Russian maybe. It's just odd that no one else in the family shows any percentage at all
    Last edited by Wheal; 10-07-19 at 17:07. Reason: addition

  24. #49
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    please people don't make this thread to aschenazi jews origin one
    enough in anthrogenica a 750 paper thread on the origin of western jews

  25. #50
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry @kingjohn, only meant it as an example of origins, and the hope that old dna samples will increase to give a more clear picture

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