Philistine DNA!

If you look at an ancient map of the Philistines and Judea, Ashkelon is surrounded by Judea. Maybe those Levantine Philistines samples are not Jewish but where did they come from? Either Judea or the northern kingdom of Israel. So basically they would be identical to Jews of that period.

My thinking is there were two possibilities for Jews to obtain South Euro admixture in the Levant, the first would be through the Philistines. This would affect the south Levant only and not Lebanon. But this paper says this is not it the case.

The second is by Alexander the great and the later Greeks after the 4th century BC. But wouldn't that affect Lebanon and western Jordan as well? We are not seeing Greek admixture in Lebanon so it is unlikely that it did for the Jews.



Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

I've been thinking about your post.

I had always thought it was a distinct possibility that during the Hellenistic period there was some admixture with the inhabitants of the "Greek" towns; perhaps in the taking of "Greek" wives, for example. That a Judean male would convert is much less plausible, imo. Part of Greek and Roman culture was going to the baths and walking around completely naked. The Jews were circumcised, and the Greeks and Romans considered it an abomination. I doubt they had surgery then to "correct" it. However, you're right: why don't the Lebanese, for, example, or the inland Syrians show this "European" signal?

That's why I always thought that if it did enter western Jewry before the Roman Empire period, it might have been the Philistines.

Now, the authors are basing their conclusion (that there was no lasting "European" impact on Jewish genetics from the Philistines) on the fact that the percentage went down from Iron Age I to Iron age too.

I think we have to remember, however, that they tested way over a hundred samples from that cemetery, and could only get dna from ten of them. So, we may be getting a slightly skewed view. Or, the situation may have been different elsewhere, in one of the other cities. I don't care either way, but I think it's a possibility.

There are a few signs of the Philistines in northern Israel, but it's likely just from mercenaries. Plus, the ten northern tribes were carted off by the Assyrians, and disappeared from history.
"In the western part of the Jezreel Valley, 23 of the 26 Iron Age I sites (12th to 10th centuries BCE) yielded typical Philistine pottery. These sites include Tel Megiddo, Tel Yokneam, Tel Qiri, Afula, Tel Qashish, Be'er Tiveon, Hurvat Hazin, Tel Risim, Tel Re'ala, Hurvat Tzror, Tel Sham, Midrakh Oz and Tel Zariq. Scholars have attributed the presence of Philistine pottery in northern Israel to their role as mercenaries for the Egyptians during their military administration of the land in the 12th century BCE. This presence may also indicate further expansion of the Philistines to the valley during the 11th century BCE, or their trade with the Israelites. There are biblical references to Philistines in the valley during the times of the judges. The quantity of Philistine pottery within these sites are still quite small, which means that even if the Philistines did settle the valley they were a minority that blended within the Canaanite population during the 12th century BCE. The Philistines seem to have been present in the southern valley during the 11th century, which may relate to the biblical account of their victory at the Battle of Gilboa.[55]"


Given some of the following it's perhaps not unusual that we are finding mixed "Southern European" like and Levantine like samples.

"The Torah does not record the Philistines as one of the nations to be displaced from Canaan. In Genesis 15:18-21 the Philistines are absent from the ten nations Abraham's descendants will displace as well as being absent from the list of nations Moses tells the people they will conquer (Deut 7:1, 20:17). God also directed the Israelites away from the Philistines upon their Exodus from Egypt according to Exodus 13:17. In Genesis 21:22-27, Abraham agrees to a covenant of kindness with Abimelech, the Philistine king, and his descendants. Abraham's son Isaacdeals with the Philistine king similarly, by concluding a treaty with them in chapter 26 (Genesis 26:28-29).

Judges 13:1 tells that the Philistines dominated the Israelites in the times of Samson, who fought and killed over a thousand (e.g. Judges 15). According to 1 Samuel 5-6 they even captured the Ark of the Covenant for a few months.
A few biblical texts, such as the Ark Narrative and stories reflecting the importance of Gath, seem to portray Late Iron I and Early Iron II memories.[47]They are mentioned more than 250 times, the majority in the Deuteronomistic history, and are depicted as among the arch-enemies of the Israelites, a serious and recurring threat before being subdued by David.[citation needed]
The Bible paints the Philistines as the main enemy of the Israelites (prior to the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire between the 10th century BC and late 7th century BC) with a state of almost perpetual war between the two. The Philistine cities lost their independence to Assyria, and revolts in the following years were all crushed. They were subsequently absorbed into the Neo-Babylonian Empire and the Achaemenid Empire, and disappeared as a distinct ethnic group by the late 5th century BC.[48"


In terms of the genetic identity of these particular "Sea Peoples" before their admixture in the various lands they conquered, this is what the authors have to say:

"The best supported one (χ2P = 0.675) infers that ASH_IA1 derivesaround 43% of ancestry from the Greek Bronze Age “Crete_Odigitria_BA” (43.1 ±19.2%) and the rest from the ASH_LBA population. ASH_IA1 could also be modeledwith either the modern “Sardinian” (35.2 ± 17.4%; χ2P = 0.070), the Bronze Age “Iberia_BA” (21.8± 21.1%; χ2P = 0.205), or the Bronze Age “Steppe_MLBA”(15.7 ± 9.1%; χ2P = 0.050) as the second source populationto ASH_LBA. To check whether these results are due to the low coverage ofASH_LBA, we repeated this analysis, but this time, we modeled ASH_IA1 as athree-way mixture of each of the candidate populations, Levant_ChL andIran_ChL. The two latter populations have higher genome coverage and can modelASH_LBA well in combination (table S3). In this analysis, only the modelsincluding “Sardinian,” “Crete_Odigitria_BA,” or “Iberia_BA” as the candidatepopulation provided a good fit (χ2P = 0.715, 49.3 ± 8.5%; χ2P = 0.972, 38.0 ± 22.0%; and χ2P = 0.964, 25.8 ± 9.3%, respectively). Wenote that, because of geographical and temporal sampling gaps, populations thatpotentially contributed the “European-related” admixture in ASH_IA1 could bemissing from the dataset. Therefore, better proxies might be found in thefuture when more data is available. Nonetheless, the tested candidatepopulations from Anatolia, Egypt, and the Levant that did not producewell-fitting models can be excluded as potential sources of the admixtureobserved in ASH_IA1."


I reviewed my books on the Sea Peoples, and there is no mention anywhere of an origin in Iberia for them. However, the Sardinians have often been associated with the Sea Peoples (the Sherden), and so have the people of Crete. The other possibility, and this is highly speculative, is that after Northern Italian like peoples pushed south down the boot of Italy, they might have gone on to Greece as mercenaries, perhaps, unfortunately, having something to do with the end of the palatial civilization. There are certainly numerous artifacts from the Italy of that time in both Greece and the Near East.

We have a dedicated thread to that topic.
 
Interesting results.

I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...
 
Interesting results.

I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...

Same goes for Calabrians. My husband has ancestry from Naples, but also from towns in Calabria built almost on top of Greek ruins and he usually gets Ashkenazi Jews in his top four matches.
 
Being on the same spot in PCA doesn't mean shared ancestry. One can be half-French and half-Iranian and be close to Greeks on PCA, which does not mean Greek ancestry.
 
I'm aware. I don't know to which PCA you're referring.

In THIS situation, we're talking about Magna Graecia, are we not? Greater Greece? It was settled by Greeks, the people were Greek Orthodox in religion, and they spoke Greek all the way through the Byzantine Era. In my husband's case, his ancestors spoke Greek until about three hundred years ago. In autosomal analysis my husband, like a lot of Southern Italians/Sicilians, gets Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks in his gedmatch lists. That he and other Italians, especially Southern Italians/Sicilians, have Greek Bronze and Iron Age ancestry is indisputable, although I'm not saying that's their only ancestry.

It's been known for a long time that Ashkenazi Jews have some percentage of East European (6% perhaps?), but a lot more Southern European ancestry than that. They also have "farmer" ancestry, both Anatolian and Iranian, as do Southern Europeans. So, the relationship that shows up in gedmatch results is not surprising at all. Jews have Southern European ancestry; maybe all from Crete or other places in Greece, maybe some from Sardinian like Italian groups in the Iron Age, maybe from Italian women in the Classical Era, etc. Bottom line, they have it, so it should be no surprise that they show up in each other's gedmatch lists as just one example.

As for the Philistines, my quote was not about a PCA. You should re-read it. Even better, read the whole paper. The first Philistines had ancestry from Crete/Greece or Sardinia/Italy or both. That's the conclusion based on statistical analysis. It's not at all just about a PCA.
 
How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8

That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?
 
But basically, from the data presented it's almost certain the Philistines were Aegean in origin. And even Netanyahu came out and said the same.
 
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.
 
How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8

That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?
All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe
 
All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe

Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:

1024px-Seth_Green_Comic-Con_2011.jpg


hqdefault.jpg
 
Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?
 
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

O.K. I misunderstood.

However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.
 
I do not know if it helps
I found these

https://www.timesofisrael.com/archa...here-future-king-david-took-refuge-from-saul/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/know-...ancient-riddle-of-origins-of-the-philistines/



''[FONT=&quot]Cautious not to over-reach from the study’s general impressions, Master said that there are “better matches from Crete,” emphasizing that until there are more samples available, “at the moment we cannot prove the specific location from whence they came.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Once they arrived in the region that would be named Philistia, the Philistine migrants began intermarrying — or at least “inter-procreating,” quipped Master — with the local population. By 1000 BCE, their genes are almost indistinguishable.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]According to Choongwon Jeong of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, one of the corresponding authors of the study, by analyzing later Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon, the researchers found that the European-related component could no longer be traced. “Within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine related gene pool,” said Jeong.[/FONT]
 
O.K. I misunderstood.

However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.

I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.
 
Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?

Of predominant descent yes. But the idea of partial heritage is still open. I don’t doubt the bulk of AJ ancestry is common to all other Western Jews though, just I think the Khazars are responsible for increased Steppe ancestry and lighter pigmentation amongst AJs as compared to for example Sephardim (who actually mixed a lot more with their surrounding populations than AJs). Most other people would say this was from Eastern Europeans but the paucity of WHG ancestry amongst other things (they are LESS redhaired than AJs by quite a bit) leads me to believe admixture with e.g. Poles was smaller than most think.
 
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

You never quoted me or responded to my post directly.
If you did, I would tell you that I never referred to PCA in my post, and the usage of "cline" in population genetics is not synonymous with PCA.
Also, Ashkenazim are not just random lurkers with Graeco-Romans on a PCA, their Jewish/Graeco-Roman interconnections go back to ancient Levant.
At the time of the Maccabean Revolt in 167–160 BCE large populations of Judeans were already Hellenized and assimilated into Greek culture.
Jewish populations have lived in Graeco-Roman Europe for well over 2000 years.
Ashkenazi Haplogroups are also in play, many are of ambiguous origins, like my own paternal Haplogroup of J2aM67.
Go take a look at Crete/Marche and Abruzzo and their levels of J2aM67, is this a mere coincidence?
 
Last edited:
I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.

Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?
 
Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?

The European mother's/Levantine father's model of Ashkenazim is crude and not accurate at all, in my opinion.
A GedMatch modeling of 50% Lebanese Christian/50% Northern Italian is misleading and wholly incorrect, in my opinion.
Ashkenazim non European paternal lines look more Transcaucasian/Anatolian/Kurdish/Iranian, than like most most modern Levantine groups.

50% of Ashkenazim J2 is either J2aM67 or J2aM92, both of which may very well be of Southern European origin.

Haplogroup G2 appears almost exclusively in eastern Ashkenazim, comprising approximately 2% of the results (Behar et al. 2004b, Supplementary Material).


Haplogroup G-M201 is found at high frequencies among populations of the Caucasus and Georgia and may have originated in that region (Cinnioglu et al. 2004). The modal haplotype shown in Table 4 was found in 14 out of 34 Ashkenazi results, with an additional 5 results only a single-step mutation away, 10-Locus Haplotype (Behar et al 2004b, supplementary material).
***Can't post the link, my account is under 10 posts.

According to the findings of Behar (2004b, Supplementary Material), R1b comprises 44 out of 442 results, or nearly 10% of Ashkenazi results. Additionally, Behar (2004b) reports that the highly-admixed Dutch Jews have 26.1% R1b results.
Haplogroup I (I-P19) comprises 18 out of 442 results, or approximately 4% of the Ashkenazi results. Thus, haplogroups R1b and I among Ashkenazi Jews comprise almost 15% of the DNA results.


R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.

I do agree that Ashkenazim paternal lines are majority non European, but the European paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazim are minimized and largely relegated to the dust bin of population genetics, and very rarely investigated in depth.
Many of the non European "Middle Eastern" paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazi Jews are far from homogeneous to the Levant.
 
Last edited:
R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.

Vast majority of AJ R1a is R-Y2619 under R-Z93>CTS6 with a TMRCA of just 1350 ybp. As CTS6 has significant basal diversity in Iran, it seems they might be of proto-Persian descend, thus far of any Z93 clades CTS6 has by far the biggest claim for that..
So ironically Netanyahu is likely proto-Persian.:grin: Jewish scriptures spoke favorably of Cyrus, so this clade might have been assimilated during that time..
Two R-Z93 clades were found in Khazar burials, and I haven't seen any Jews clustering with them.
 
All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.
 

This thread has been viewed 68210 times.

Back
Top