Philistine DNA!

Aegean is what the archaeology strongly suggested as well so when taken together with the DNA it's a home run, which also probably means that the Sea Peoples were from the Aegean too. This not only made intuitive sense but the sparse evidence hinted at this as well.

My hunch is that this did have something to do with the actual events underpinning the Trojan War stories. Whatever this event was it was far reaching. There's several myths revolving around it including the Odyssey, which is nothing more than Trojan War vets getting tangled up in adventure after the War. This is so awesome.

I am glad I'm not the only one with an affinity for that scenario.
 
I really do not trust those statistics, there’s absolutely no way Samaritans are more redhaired than AJs.



Henry Minor Huxley is the only other Anthropologist to observe the Samaritans.

He found only 6.2% red beards and no red scalp hair, but he included no women and there were fewer men observed. As Szpidbaum was clearly more extensive, I see no reason to emphasize Huxley more.

If you read my explanation clearly you should have no trouble believing. If you have four families among whom red hair is common and they have a lot of children between each other, your going to end up with a larger population where red hair is common.

I got the Szpidbaum statistics from Hans F. K. Günther‘s Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes
Pages 153-54. You can access it here: archive.org/details/Guenther-Hans-Rassenkunde-des-juedischen-Volkes-2/page/n154)

Genetic sources you can find here: ALFRED alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F)
Sammy Issac Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw

Add in https:// as I can’t give links yet.

Unexpected does not mean wrong.
 
Henry Minor Huxley is the only other Anthropologist to observe the Samaritans.

He found only 6.2% red beards and no red scalp hair, but he included no women and there were fewer men observed. As Szpidbaum was clearly more extensive, I see no reason to emphasize Huxley more.

If you read my explanation clearly you should have no trouble believing. If you have four families among whom red hair is common and they have a lot of children between each other, your going to end up with a larger population where red hair is common.

I got the Szpidbaum statistics from Hans F. K. Günther‘s Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes
Pages 153-54. You can access it here: archive.org/details/Guenther-Hans-Rassenkunde-des-juedischen-Volkes-2/page/n154)

Genetic sources you can find here: ALFRED alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F)
Sammy Issac Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw

Add in https:// as I can’t give links yet.

Unexpected does not mean wrong.

Yeah, I get your point about potential founder effects and data trumping expectations I suppose, but there’s only been limited observation and what’s more 6.2% red beards may include only slightly reddish colour which in a different survey might not make the cut for being red - and this is just beards, not even hair, which would be much less red as a total percentage. Maybe it’s around the same as Ashkenazim, but I would personally want to see much more evidence before believing the levels of rufosity greatly exceeded AJs. It’s all well and good looking at data but without knowing reliability I stand by the fact that big claims require appropriate levels of evidence
 
There is a Northern Mediterranean element in both Anglos and AJs but the rufosity is much more unexpected given AJs have such little WHG this element surely was acquired from a Steppe pastoralist population such as the Khazars (who presumably looked similar to Scythians).

Also, Natalie Portman is just way better than Keira Knightly - not even close
King John had a point, I don't want to soil a perfectly fine thread about ancient Philistine DNA any further.

Knightly has obvious anorexia issues in my opinion, your preference for Portman is duly noted...
Portman is also brainy and a graduated Harvard with a degree in Psychology.

Where is the evidence of mass Khazar genetic introgression in the Ashkenazi genome?
Ashkenazim look very much like Southern Greeks and South Italians/Sicilians on the autosomal level.
Why is that?
 
King John had a point, I don't want to soil a perfectly fine thread about ancient Philistine DNA any further.

Knightly has obvious anorexia issues in my opinion, your preference for Portman is duly noted...
Portman is also brainy and a graduated Harvard with a degree in Psychology.

Where is the evidence of mass Khazar genetic introgression in the Ashkenazi genome?
Ashkenazim look very much like Southern Greeks and South Italians/Sicilians on the autosomal level.
Why is that?

I would say that the evidence is from Davidski’s modelling of AJs as having surprisingly high Steppe and also the fact that Ashkenazim are so much lighter than Southern Italians/Sicilians/Southern Greeks with a special emphasis on rufosity. Yet WHG is low, hence my belief the population responsible for these distinctions from e.g. Sicilians is that of Steppe pastoralists and the likely candidate being the Khazars. Yet PCA plots are similar, so there must be an offset to the Steppe infusion that Ashkenazim have in extra abundance as compared to Sicilians which I believe is greater West Asian ancestry. So Sicilians would be more Mediterranean and this makes perfect sense phenotypically too.
 
What's the distance score for the model with the high steppe score for Ashkenazi? Just curious
 
What's the distance score for the model with the high steppe score for Ashkenazi? Just curious

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8
 
I would say that the evidence is from Davidski’s modelling of AJs as having surprisingly high Steppe and also the fact that Ashkenazim are so much lighter than Southern Italians/Sicilians/Southern Greeks with a special emphasis on rufosity. Yet WHG is low, hence my belief the population responsible for these distinctions from e.g. Sicilians is that of Steppe pastoralists and the likely candidate being the Khazars. Yet PCA plots are similar, so there must be an offset to the Steppe infusion that Ashkenazim have in extra abundance as compared to Sicilians which I believe is greater West Asian ancestry. So Sicilians would be more Mediterranean and this makes perfect sense phenotypically too.

Why not post this in a Khazar hypothesis thread?
Or start another one?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25783-The-Jewish-Khazars
 
Because I’m not that interested to be honest, it’s just the direction the thread went. There isn't really anything else to add about Philistine DNA anyway that hasn’t been covered.

Sure seems like you have an interest in it.

There isn't really anything else to add about the Khazar hypothesis that hasn’t been covered ad nauseum .
Every wild eyed special interest group from David Duke to Black Hebrew Israelites to BritishIsraelism/Zionists have endlessly opined on the alleged Khazar/Ashkenazi connection.
Nothing good has ever come of it.

To begin with Khazar Khaganate was a massively heterogeneous group and a few ancient Khazar graves and their subsequent DNA analysts tells us little about their multi-ethnic origins.

I'm done, and apologize for steering this thread off into the Twilight Zone.
 
Ok, ToBeOrNotToBe,

You were asked quite nicely to find a Khazar thread and post there if you must. Now it's a directive.

The next post on the topic will be deleted and you'll get an infraction.

I might even delete the ones already here.

Anyone who takes any notice of any results from Davidski/Eurogenes/Polako about Jews, known for years as a rabid anti-Semite, is off his rocker. The fact that Gedmatch still has his "J" test is tantamount to malpractice. Years ago he said Ashkenazim had such high IQs because of steppe ancestry. Of course, if you believe their high IQs are related to that, it's interesting they're so much higher than the ones of the Eastern Europeans around them. :) This is the kind of stuff which makes me wonder how people can trust his results and conclusions. You might also ask yourself why certain samples disappear from his programs.
 
Ok, ToBeOrNotToBe,

You were asked quite nicely to find a Khazar thread and post there if you must. Now it's a directive.

The next post on the topic will be deleted and you'll get an infraction.

I might even delete the ones already here.

Anyone who takes any notice of any results from Davidski/Eurogenes/Polako about Jews, known for years as a rabid anti-Semite, is off his rocker. The fact that Gedmatch still has his "J" test is tantamount to malpractice. Years ago he said Ashkenazim had such high IQs because of steppe ancestry. Of course, if you believe their high IQs are related to that, it's interesting they're so much higher than the ones of the Eastern Europeans around them. :) This is the kind of stuff which makes me wonder how people can trust his results and conclusions. You might also ask yourself why certain samples disappear from his programs.

If he said that, that’s beyond stupid. I’d actually not trust his modelling if he said something like that
 
Sure seems like you have an interest in it.

There isn't really anything else to add about the Khazar hypothesis that hasn’t been covered ad nauseum .
Every wild eyed special interest group from David Duke to Black Hebrew Israelites to BritishIsraelism/Zionists have endlessly opined on the alleged Khazar/Ashkenazi connection.
Nothing good has ever come of it.

To begin with Khazar Khaganate was a massively heterogeneous group and a few ancient Khazar graves and their subsequent DNA analysts tells us little about their multi-ethnic origins.

I'm done, and apologize for steering this thread off into the Twilight Zone.

I’ll stop now too, but I want to add these anti-Semitic people believe the Khazars are the principal ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews as a way to delegitimise them (and also Khazar sounds kinda evil). I just think there is partial Khazar ancestry, very low double digit as a percentage. I’ve given the reasons why I think so.

But yeah, this’ll be the end on this thread unless someone else brings it up again
 
Yeah, I get your point about potential founder effects and data trumping expectations I suppose, but there’s only been limited observation and what’s more 6.2% red beards may include only slightly reddish colour which in a different survey might not make the cut for being red - and this is just beards, not even hair, which would be much less red as a total percentage. Maybe it’s around the same as Ashkenazim, but I would personally want to see much more evidence before believing the levels of rufosity greatly exceeded AJs. It’s all well and good looking at data but without knowing reliability I stand by the fact that big claims require appropriate levels of evidence



Of the roughly 1,032 beard observations of Ashkenazi Jews between Fishberg, Blechman, Yakowenko, and Weissenberg, about 10.5% were classified as red. This is under the definition of more or less red, including clear auburns, but not brown beards with a slight reddish tinge which would count as chestnut or light chestnut.

Henry Minor Huxley only observed 42 males over 15 for hair color and 32 males over 15 for beard color.
He included grey hair and beard which brings us down to 40 colored hair observations and 27 colored beard observations.

Henryk Szpidbaum observed 27 adult men and 27 adult women. In addition he observed 24 male children and 16 female children. Grey hair was excluded. This leaves us with the same number of colored beard observations, but over twice as many hair color observations.

Henry Minor Huxley is clearly not the better source as regards to pigmentation. Szpidbaum appears to be the most through.

When we take into consideration the men among whom no redheads were found, about 6.3% of the whole Samaritan sample is redheaded. 94 was over half the the Samaritan Population at the Time, so the sample Size is more than sufficient. Actually 29.6% of Samaritan men were redbearded or four individuals of the 27 adult male observations. Günther mistakenly switched the 6 with the 9.

Based on large samples the range for red head hair among Ashkenazi Jews is approximately 2-4%. Modern Samaritans are distinctly above that range, similar to Beddoe’s average for Scotland.They were not always like that, but that is besides the point.

Here is an article of Szpidbaum’s work on the Samaritans in Polish, pages 331-356:

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/50065/WA35_4434_cz167-r1926-t19_Spraw-TNW-wIII-art3.pdf

Reading it should be enough to close your doubts on the matter.
 
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XnCMQgy.png


This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

QnrvhAE.png


https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

The researchers estimate that new Eurasian people mixed with the Canaanite population about 3,800 to 2,200 years ago at a time when there were many conquests of the region from outside.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170727122039.htm[SUB][/SUB]
 
XnCMQgy.png


This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

QnrvhAE.png


https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Very interesting perspective mate thanks for sharing.
I am astonished also to the closeness of the sample to Hittite Anatolia. Imo the Hittite Anatolia might have been a conduit for the spread of genes as well as culture(pottery, material technology) into the Levant.
 
XnCMQgy.png


This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

QnrvhAE.png


https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

the mitanni ?
 
the mitanni ?

Possible, the paper said it could have come from a number of different sources from the surrounding area:

t is important to note here that Bronze Age Steppe populations used in the model need not be the actual ancestral mixing populations, and the admixture could have involved a population which was itself admixed with a Steppe-like ancestry population. The time period of this mixture overlaps with the decline of the Egyptian empire and its domination over the Levant, leading some of the coastal cities to thrive, including Sidon and Tyre, which established at this time a successful maritime trade network throughout the Mediterranean. The decline in Egypt’s power was also followed by a succession of conquests of the region by distant populations such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Macedonians, any or all of whom could have carried the Steppe-like ancestry observed here in the Levant after the Bronze Age.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8[SUB][/SUB]
 

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