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Thread: Philistine DNA!

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Philistine DNA!

    Paper just got released, hopefully some treats in store - after such a long time waiting for interesting aDNA papers it better be worth it!

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/7/eaax0061
    The ancient Mediterranean port city of Ashkelon, identified as “Philistine” during the Iron Age, underwent a marked cultural change between the Late Bronze and the early Iron Age. It has been long debated whether this change was driven by a substantial movement of people, possibly linked to a larger migration of the so-called “Sea Peoples.” Here, we report genome-wide data of 10 Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon. We find that the early Iron Age population was genetically distinct due to a European-related admixture. This genetic signal is no longer detectible in the later Iron Age population. Our results support that a migration event occurred during the Bronze to Iron Age transition in Ashkelon but did not leave a long-lasting genetic signature.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T-CTS8489
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U6a1a

    Ethnic group
    Irish
    Country: United States



    Y-DNA hg T?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW View Post
    Y-DNA hg T?
    No T-m184.......there is L-m20 though
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    Looks like a pretty diverse group


    Haplogroups

    Analysis
    group
    Sampled
    tissue
    Mean
    coverage
    (fold)
    Carbon
    date
    Archeological
    date
    Total
    sequenced
    reads (×106)
    Human
    DNA (%)
    Genetic
    sex
    mt Ychr
    ASH029.A0101 ASH_LBA Petrous 0.14 1622–1522 MBIIC–LBII 86.6 6.9 F H66a
    ASH033.A0101 ASH_LBA Petrous 0.11 1746–1643 MBIIC–LBII 84.8 2 F N
    ASH034.A0101 ASH_LBA Petrous 0.42 NA MBIIC–LBII 81.9 13.7 F U3b1a
    ASH066.A0101 ASH_IA1 Petrous 0.18 1371–1129 Iron I–Post Ramses III 10.5 11.0 M T2c1c J
    ASH067.A0101 ASH_IA1 Petrous 0.17 1379–1131 Iron I–Post Ramses III 10.9 11.2 M H92 R1
    ASH002/3.A0101 ASH_IA1 Petrous 0.08 1378–1134 Iron I–Post Ramses III 26.9 13 F I1
    ASH068.A0101 ASH_IA1 Petrous 0.27 1284–1126 Iron I–Post Ramses III 11.2 17.6 F T1a1
    ASH008.A0101 ASH_IA2 Petrous 0.7 1257–1042 Iron IIA 126.7 17.2 M H2c BT
    ASH087.A0101 ASH_IA2 Petrous 0.22 NA Iron IIA 12.8 15.6 M H4a1c L
    ASH135.A0101 ASH_IA2 Molar 0.09 NA Iron IIA 13.3 3.9 F JT

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I uploaded the samples to GEDmatch:

    ASH002 - BT4403215
    ASH2-3 - JB1709310
    ASH003 - CN4862763
    ASH8 - JS7388527
    ASH29 - RT1944985
    ASH33 - TA5202730
    ASH34 - QU1303008
    ASH066 - ZN1823578
    ASH067 - YU8222286
    ASH068 - KS9655052
    ASH087 - TS4858801
    ASH135 - ZY6893016

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Some more figures from the study:




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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results:

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm



    ^^^ Here their K15 results:


    ASH002
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 13.27
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 7.02
    West_Med 15.92
    West_Asian 22.27
    East_Med 41.30
    Red_Sea 0
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0.23


    ASH2-3
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 12.10
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 16.76
    West_Asian 21.66
    East_Med 35.91
    Red_Sea 12.67
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0.31
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0.51
    Sub-Saharan 0.07


    ASH003
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 11.25
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 17.99
    West_Asian 18.67
    East_Med 34.30
    Red_Sea 16.29
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 1.51
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH33
    Population
    North_Sea 2.95
    Atlantic 1.35
    Baltic 1.53
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 9.65
    West_Asian 14.92
    East_Med 51.65
    Red_Sea 14.05
    South_Asian 1.15
    Southeast_Asian 0.38
    Siberian 0.38
    Amerindian 0.27
    Oceanian 1.71
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH34
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 4.63
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 11.88
    West_Asian 19.90
    East_Med 50.35
    Red_Sea 13.24
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH066
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.62
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 12.19
    West_Asian 11.12
    East_Med 43.27
    Red_Sea 15.69
    South_Asian 2.56
    Southeast_Asian 0.56
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.34
    Northeast_African 3.64
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH29
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.87
    Baltic 0.87
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 6.16
    West_Asian 17.85
    East_Med 50.50
    Red_Sea 12.65
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.15
    Northeast_African 0.93
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH8
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0.56
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 7.42
    West_Asian 19.82
    East_Med 51.96
    Red_Sea 16.57
    South_Asian 1.22
    Southeast_Asian 0.07
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 2.40
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH068
    North_Sea 8.10
    Atlantic 8.08
    Baltic 2.82
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 30.25
    West_Asian 15.68
    East_Med 27.10
    Red_Sea 6.89
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0.13
    Siberian 0.06
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0.89


    ASH067
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.07
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 21.17
    West_Asian 18.85
    East_Med 46.19
    Red_Sea 3.01
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.71
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH087
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 17.21
    West_Asian 13.54
    East_Med 46.88
    Red_Sea 18.11
    South_Asian 0.86
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 1.67
    Amerindian 0.68
    Oceanian 0.14
    Northeast_African 0.91
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH135
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0
    Baltic 0.92
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 21.06
    West_Asian 16.03
    East_Med 41.78
    Red_Sea 14.91
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 1.49
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 3.81
    Sub-Saharan 0

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ASH068 seems Sicilian-like

    Utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    ASH068 seems Sicilian-like
    And ASH002 is within Ashkenazi range. I know one AJ guy who plots very close to ASH002 in that K15 PCA.

    =====

    I think that only these three Philistines were siimilar to European populations (if not counting Cypriots and Jews):

    ASH002 - similar to Southern Italians
    ASH067 - similar to Insular Greeks
    ASH068 - similar to Southern Italians

    ASH066 apparently also had high % of WHG but what would be a good model with Euro admix for him in Global25?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-YP445
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c2b

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic
    Country: USA - Rhode Island



    ASH067 with R1 is likely to be R1b-Z2103 or R1a-Z93.

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    https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...igin-1.7433390

    It is difficult to pinpoint the exact origin of this part of the early Philistine genome because we don’t have enough samples of ancient DNA from this period in Europe, Feldman says. But the statistical models run by the geneticists show that the most likely scenario is that these individuals derived around 43 percent of their ancestry from people in Bronze Age Greece, and the rest from the original Levantine population of Ashkelon. Other, less likely models, show similarities with the genome of modern Sardinians or with people from Bronze Age Iberia, the study says.

    “In the future, as we get more samples from across the region, we will be able to speak more precisely about the source than we can do now,” says Master, the lead archaeologist on the study. But the genetic modeling, coupled with the archaeological evidence already tips the scales heavily in favor of the Aegean hypothesis.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    It looks very similar to Lebanon and Jordan samples of the same period to my own untrained eye. They kind of cluster close to them on the PCAs.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283-Cluster A

    Country: Albania



    Seems likely that whomever the sea peoples were they left a short lived genetic trace in the Levant.
    Personally after reading your quote my money is on the sea peoples being remnants of the armies continuing to pillage after the sack of Troy. They had the ships and they were gathered, maybe they decided to continue waring and pillaging whatever was beyond Asia Minor going all the way to Egypt.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results:

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm



    ^^^ Here their K15 results:


    ASH002
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 13.27
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 7.02
    West_Med 15.92
    West_Asian 22.27
    East_Med 41.30
    Red_Sea 0
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0.23


    ASH2-3
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 12.10
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 16.76
    West_Asian 21.66
    East_Med 35.91
    Red_Sea 12.67
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0.31
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0.51
    Sub-Saharan 0.07


    ASH003
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 11.25
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 17.99
    West_Asian 18.67
    East_Med 34.30
    Red_Sea 16.29
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 1.51
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH33
    Population
    North_Sea 2.95
    Atlantic 1.35
    Baltic 1.53
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 9.65
    West_Asian 14.92
    East_Med 51.65
    Red_Sea 14.05
    South_Asian 1.15
    Southeast_Asian 0.38
    Siberian 0.38
    Amerindian 0.27
    Oceanian 1.71
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH34
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 4.63
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 11.88
    West_Asian 19.90
    East_Med 50.35
    Red_Sea 13.24
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH066
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.62
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 12.19
    West_Asian 11.12
    East_Med 43.27
    Red_Sea 15.69
    South_Asian 2.56
    Southeast_Asian 0.56
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.34
    Northeast_African 3.64
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH29
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.87
    Baltic 0.87
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 6.16
    West_Asian 17.85
    East_Med 50.50
    Red_Sea 12.65
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.15
    Northeast_African 0.93
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH8
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0.56
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 7.42
    West_Asian 19.82
    East_Med 51.96
    Red_Sea 16.57
    South_Asian 1.22
    Southeast_Asian 0.07
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 2.40
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH068
    North_Sea 8.10
    Atlantic 8.08
    Baltic 2.82
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 30.25
    West_Asian 15.68
    East_Med 27.10
    Red_Sea 6.89
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0.13
    Siberian 0.06
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0.89


    ASH067
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 10.07
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 21.17
    West_Asian 18.85
    East_Med 46.19
    Red_Sea 3.01
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0.71
    Northeast_African 0
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH087
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0
    Baltic 0
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 17.21
    West_Asian 13.54
    East_Med 46.88
    Red_Sea 18.11
    South_Asian 0.86
    Southeast_Asian 0
    Siberian 1.67
    Amerindian 0.68
    Oceanian 0.14
    Northeast_African 0.91
    Sub-Saharan 0


    ASH135
    North_Sea 0
    Atlantic 0
    Baltic 0.92
    Eastern_Euro 0
    West_Med 21.06
    West_Asian 16.03
    East_Med 41.78
    Red_Sea 14.91
    South_Asian 0
    Southeast_Asian 1.49
    Siberian 0
    Amerindian 0
    Oceanian 0
    Northeast_African 3.81
    Sub-Saharan 0
    Well it looks like some of these are 1/2 Mycenaean (like) 1/2 Levant so perhaps a Mycenaean population mixed heavily with the locals. Im willing to bet these greek settlers are the source of the Southern European ancestry in European Jews
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Well it looks like some of these are 1/2 Mycenaean (like) 1/2 Levant so perhaps a Mycenaean population mixed heavily with the locals. Im willing to bet these greek settlers are the source of the Southern European ancestry in European Jews
    The paper states that the Philistines dissolved into the local population without a trace which indicates European Jews acquired this source outside the Levant.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iseid041 View Post
    The paper states that the Philistines dissolved into the local population without a trace which indicates European Jews acquired this source outside the Levant.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
    I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.


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    4 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Everything I know of the Sea Peoples indicates that they were "groups" of people, not necessarily from one place. Plus, as they moved south and east they would change genetically.

    One of those samples looks extremely Sardinian to me, and they have been connected to the Sea Peoples. Others could have come from southern Italy. Others could have been from the Aegean. I honestly don't know if at that period there's was a whole bunch of difference between these people.

    The really intriguing bit is the yDna "L".

    I'll really read the paper in depth later and compare to my books on the Sea Peoples.

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    It looks to me like a southern euro migration which formed the Philistine culture. This washed out into the Levantine pop after a few hundred years. Were they fleeing the destruction in southern Europe or were they the people causing the destruction?

    There was a R1b1b in the mix, need to look more closely at possible subgroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.
    If you look at an ancient map of the Philistines and Judea, Ashkelon is surrounded by Judea. Maybe those Levantine Philistines samples are not Jewish but where did they come from? Either Judea or the northern kingdom of Israel. So basically they would be identical to Jews of that period.

    My thinking is there were two possibilities for Jews to obtain South Euro admixture in the Levant, the first would be through the Philistines. This would affect the south Levant only and not Lebanon. But this paper says this is not it the case.

    The second is by Alexander the great and the later Greeks after the 4th century BC. But wouldn't that affect Lebanon and western Jordan as well? We are not seeing Greek admixture in Lebanon so it is unlikely that it did for the Jews.



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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iseid041 View Post
    If you look at an ancient map of the Philistines and Judea, Ashkelon is surrounded by Judea. Maybe those Levantine Philistines samples are not Jewish but where did they come from? Either Judea or the northern kingdom of Israel. So basically they would be identical to Jews of that period.

    My thinking is there were two possibilities for Jews to obtain South Euro admixture in the Levant, the first would be through the Philistines. This would affect the south Levant only and not Lebanon. But this paper says this is not it the case.

    The second is by Alexander the great and the later Greeks after the 4th century BC. But wouldn't that affect Lebanon and western Jordan as well? We are not seeing Greek admixture in Lebanon so it is unlikely that it did for the Jews.



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    I've been thinking about your post.

    I had always thought it was a distinct possibility that during the Hellenistic period there was some admixture with the inhabitants of the "Greek" towns; perhaps in the taking of "Greek" wives, for example. That a Judean male would convert is much less plausible, imo. Part of Greek and Roman culture was going to the baths and walking around completely naked. The Jews were circumcised, and the Greeks and Romans considered it an abomination. I doubt they had surgery then to "correct" it. However, you're right: why don't the Lebanese, for, example, or the inland Syrians show this "European" signal?

    That's why I always thought that if it did enter western Jewry before the Roman Empire period, it might have been the Philistines.

    Now, the authors are basing their conclusion (that there was no lasting "European" impact on Jewish genetics from the Philistines) on the fact that the percentage went down from Iron Age I to Iron age too.

    I think we have to remember, however, that they tested way over a hundred samples from that cemetery, and could only get dna from ten of them. So, we may be getting a slightly skewed view. Or, the situation may have been different elsewhere, in one of the other cities. I don't care either way, but I think it's a possibility.

    There are a few signs of the Philistines in northern Israel, but it's likely just from mercenaries. Plus, the ten northern tribes were carted off by the Assyrians, and disappeared from history.
    "In the western part of the Jezreel Valley, 23 of the 26 Iron Age I sites (12th to 10th centuries BCE) yielded typical Philistine pottery. These sites include Tel Megiddo, Tel Yokneam, Tel Qiri, Afula, Tel Qashish, Be'er Tiveon, Hurvat Hazin, Tel Risim, Tel Re'ala, Hurvat Tzror, Tel Sham, Midrakh Oz and Tel Zariq. Scholars have attributed the presence of Philistine pottery in northern Israel to their role as mercenaries for the Egyptians during their military administration of the land in the 12th century BCE. This presence may also indicate further expansion of the Philistines to the valley during the 11th century BCE, or their trade with the Israelites. There are biblical references to Philistines in the valley during the times of the judges. The quantity of Philistine pottery within these sites are still quite small, which means that even if the Philistines did settle the valley they were a minority that blended within the Canaanite population during the 12th century BCE. The Philistines seem to have been present in the southern valley during the 11th century, which may relate to the biblical account of their victory at the Battle of Gilboa.[55]"


    Given some of the following it's perhaps not unusual that we are finding mixed "Southern European" like and Levantine like samples.

    "The Torah does not record the Philistines as one of the nations to be displaced from Canaan. In Genesis 15:18-21 the Philistines are absent from the ten nations Abraham's descendants will displace as well as being absent from the list of nations Moses tells the people they will conquer (Deut 7:1, 20:17). God also directed the Israelites away from the Philistines upon their Exodus from Egypt according to Exodus 13:17. In Genesis 21:22-27, Abraham agrees to a covenant of kindness with Abimelech, the Philistine king, and his descendants. Abraham's son Isaacdeals with the Philistine king similarly, by concluding a treaty with them in chapter 26 (Genesis 26:28-29).

    Judges 13:1 tells that the Philistines dominated the Israelites in the times of Samson, who fought and killed over a thousand (e.g. Judges 15). According to 1 Samuel 5-6 they even captured the Ark of the Covenant for a few months.
    A few biblical texts, such as the Ark Narrative and stories reflecting the importance of Gath, seem to portray Late Iron I and Early Iron II memories.[47]They are mentioned more than 250 times, the majority in the Deuteronomistic history, and are depicted as among the arch-enemies of the Israelites, a serious and recurring threat before being subdued by David.[citation needed]
    The Bible paints the Philistines as the main enemy of the Israelites (prior to the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire between the 10th century BC and late 7th century BC) with a state of almost perpetual war between the two. The Philistine cities lost their independence to Assyria, and revolts in the following years were all crushed. They were subsequently absorbed into the Neo-Babylonian Empire and the Achaemenid Empire, and disappeared as a distinct ethnic group by the late 5th century BC.[48"


    In terms of the genetic identity of these particular "Sea Peoples" before their admixture in the various lands they conquered, this is what the authors have to say:

    "The best supported one (χ2P = 0.675) infers that ASH_IA1 derivesaround 43% of ancestry from the Greek Bronze Age “Crete_Odigitria_BA” (43.1 ±19.2%) and the rest from the ASH_LBA population. ASH_IA1 could also be modeledwith either the modern “Sardinian” (35.2 ± 17.4%; χ2P = 0.070), the Bronze Age “Iberia_BA” (21.8± 21.1%; χ2P = 0.205), or the Bronze Age “Steppe_MLBA”(15.7 ± 9.1%; χ2P = 0.050) as the second source populationto ASH_LBA. To check whether these results are due to the low coverage ofASH_LBA, we repeated this analysis, but this time, we modeled ASH_IA1 as athree-way mixture of each of the candidate populations, Levant_ChL andIran_ChL. The two latter populations have higher genome coverage and can modelASH_LBA well in combination (table S3). In this analysis, only the modelsincluding “Sardinian,” “Crete_Odigitria_BA,” or “Iberia_BA” as the candidatepopulation provided a good fit (χ2P = 0.715, 49.3 ± 8.5%; χ2P = 0.972, 38.0 ± 22.0%; and χ2P = 0.964, 25.8 ± 9.3%, respectively). Wenote that, because of geographical and temporal sampling gaps, populations thatpotentially contributed the “European-related” admixture in ASH_IA1 could bemissing from the dataset. Therefore, better proxies might be found in thefuture when more data is available. Nonetheless, the tested candidatepopulations from Anatolia, Egypt, and the Levant that did not producewell-fitting models can be excluded as potential sources of the admixtureobserved in ASH_IA1."


    I reviewed my books on the Sea Peoples, and there is no mention anywhere of an origin in Iberia for them. However, the Sardinians have often been associated with the Sea Peoples (the Sherden), and so have the people of Crete. The other possibility, and this is highly speculative, is that after Northern Italian like peoples pushed south down the boot of Italy, they might have gone on to Greece as mercenaries, perhaps, unfortunately, having something to do with the end of the palatial civilization. There are certainly numerous artifacts from the Italy of that time in both Greece and the Near East.

    We have a dedicated thread to that topic.

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    Interesting results.

    I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
    Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

    This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
    On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joker View Post
    Interesting results.

    I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
    Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

    This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
    On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...
    Same goes for Calabrians. My husband has ancestry from Naples, but also from towns in Calabria built almost on top of Greek ruins and he usually gets Ashkenazi Jews in his top four matches.

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    Being on the same spot in PCA doesn't mean shared ancestry. One can be half-French and half-Iranian and be close to Greeks on PCA, which does not mean Greek ancestry.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I'm aware. I don't know to which PCA you're referring.

    In THIS situation, we're talking about Magna Graecia, are we not? Greater Greece? It was settled by Greeks, the people were Greek Orthodox in religion, and they spoke Greek all the way through the Byzantine Era. In my husband's case, his ancestors spoke Greek until about three hundred years ago. In autosomal analysis my husband, like a lot of Southern Italians/Sicilians, gets Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks in his gedmatch lists. That he and other Italians, especially Southern Italians/Sicilians, have Greek Bronze and Iron Age ancestry is indisputable, although I'm not saying that's their only ancestry.

    It's been known for a long time that Ashkenazi Jews have some percentage of East European (6% perhaps?), but a lot more Southern European ancestry than that. They also have "farmer" ancestry, both Anatolian and Iranian, as do Southern Europeans. So, the relationship that shows up in gedmatch results is not surprising at all. Jews have Southern European ancestry; maybe all from Crete or other places in Greece, maybe some from Sardinian like Italian groups in the Iron Age, maybe from Italian women in the Classical Era, etc. Bottom line, they have it, so it should be no surprise that they show up in each other's gedmatch lists as just one example.

    As for the Philistines, my quote was not about a PCA. You should re-read it. Even better, read the whole paper. The first Philistines had ancestry from Crete/Greece or Sardinia/Italy or both. That's the conclusion based on statistical analysis. It's not at all just about a PCA.

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