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Thread: Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, these are from an analysis of large modern databases. Based on SNP diversity, yfull estimates a TMRCA of 3,500 BC for Armenian-coalescing clades of R1b and 2,200 BC for South Caspian-coalescing clades of R1a. My estimates based on STR diversity are both earlier - 4,500 BC for Armenian R1b and 2,400 BC for South Caspian R1a. Armenian R1b is fairly stable, behaving like other Near/Middle Eastern lineages. South Caspian R1a is expansive and nomadic, with volatile development patterns - I don't see them in general as part of the same movement. Both might have spoken IE languages - R1b an earlier centum version and R1a a later satemised version, both affecting the final language product.


    The original Steppe Armenians/Proto-Armenians could have 'formed' anywhere over a fairly wide area - my guess is somewhere between North East Anatolia and Azov, but there's not enough data to be precise. Depending on where, they might have had fairly limited EHG before R1a arrived.

    Regarding ancient language-speaking, the only thing I'm tentatively confident about is that early R1b-DF27 most likely brought a Basque-ancestral language to Spain, rather than a IE one, so I really have no firm idea where IE came from.
    This is absolutely fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to explain it!

    So what you are suggesting is that Armenian is possibly some sort of creole between a very early R1b centum language and a later R1a satem language (the latter which could be reconciled with some of what Cyrus is saying in his most recent post)? Or maybe not a creole, per se, but the R1a satemized language heavily influenced the earlier centum R1b language? Do you think that the R1b language was connected to Kura-Araxes culture? When do you think the R1b centum and the R1a satem connected (obviously it was after 2400 BCE)?

    The Black Sea coastal area makes sense--Hamp specifically mentioned Batumi, Georgia as the locus for the Greco-Armenian split. I cannot remember who postulated this, but the Georgian city of Aia could be linguistically connected to Haya (which would be a native form of "Armenian"--I don't particularly care about this theory, but I thought it was interesting because it could fit your model).

    Lastly, it seems that you do not believe that the genetics support (or at least necessitates) a Balkan origin for Armenians, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    So what you are suggesting is that Armenian is possibly some sort of creole between a very early R1b centum language and a later R1a satem language (the latter which could be reconciled with some of what Cyrus is saying in his most recent post)? Or maybe not a creole, per se, but the R1a satemized language heavily influenced the earlier centum R1b language? Do you think that the R1b language was connected to Kura-Araxes culture? When do you think the R1b centum and the R1a satem connected (obviously it was after 2400 BCE)?
    Yes to the first two questions, but I'm afraid I don't know enough or have access to enough data to be in a position to form a clear opinion about the latter two questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Lastly, it seems that you do not believe that the genetics support (or at least necessitates) a Balkan origin for Armenians, right?
    I don't rule it out, as I do see signs of a likely Balkan formation zone for extant R1b-L51, but cannot detect significant indications of Balkan DNA moving to the South Eastern Pontic at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    What are you basing that on? Most linguists agree that Armenian is closest to/occupies a space between Greek and Indo-Iranian, this includes Vaux, Hamp, Clackson, etc. It's more frequently agreed upon that Indo-Iranian is closer to Balto-Slavic than Armenian is. The idea isn't that Armenian is closer to Balto-Slavic, but that these languages were in contact with one another. If you're basing your reasoning off of /l/ existence in proto-Armenian's phonology, /f/ didn't exist in Classical Armenian (and quite possibly not in pre-Classical Armenian, and maybe not proto-Armenian). Instead, p>f was rendered in Classical Armenian as p>h (fire=hur, father=hayr). I believe that /f/ exists in Balto-Slavic languages, however.

    As for the genetics, we know that people genetically similar to Armenians contributed heavily to Yamnaya. We also know that Corded Ware were genetically connected to Yamnaya. So that could explain genetic connections between Armenians and Balto-Slavics.

    J2b1 is native to the Near East. I2 is originally Eastern Mediterranean. Only 8% of Armenians are R1a, which could be from Steppe Armenians, or could be from an intrusion of another Steppe-derived populations.

    The most frequent Y-haplogroups in Armenians are R1b1b1 (28%), J2a2a (22%), G2 (11%) (mainly G2a3a), and J1 (11%) (J1c3d, J1c3d1).
    When I said Armenian is closer to Balto-Slavic, I meant as a Satem language, I also believe a Greek substrate about Armenian, in fact Armenian phonology is very similar to Greek phonology and we see a similar (aspirated and deaspirated) devoicing and other similar sound changes like s>h, but it means proto-Armenians as a satem-speaking people migrated to the Greek lands in the east of Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    When I said Armenian is closer to Balto-Slavic, I meant as a Satem language, I also believe a Greek substrate about Armenian, in fact Armenian phonology is very similar to Greek phonology and we see a similar (aspirated and deaspirated) devoicing and other similar sound changes like s>h, but it means proto-Armenians as a satem-speaking people migrated to the Greek lands in the east of Anatolia.
    But neither Armenian or Balto-Slavic are truly satem unlike Indo-Iranian languages. Balto-Slavic has incomplete satemization and Armenian is somewhere between centum and satem (and is likely somewhere between Greek and Indo-Iranian). To my understanding, satemization has developed independently more than once too.

    The similarity with Greek might be because a) according to Hamp's model, they branched off from each other (in southern Georgia) and/or b) because of Greek-Armenian interactions since 1000 BCE (or potentially before if the Ahhiyawans were Greek and/or the Trialeti-Vanadzor people were Armenian--which would suggest that they likely never stopped interacting with one another even after separation).

    Does Armenian have s>h? I thought it was p>h and h>k. The h>(kh? khi?)>k being plural markers. For example, Hayk' being the plural for Armenians (Hyes), Barsik being the plural for Persians (Parsis).

    What do you mean that the proto-Armenians were a satem-speaking people who migrated to the Greek lands east of Anatolia? This is counter to most models. So what you're suggesting is that Armenians and Greeks flipped homelands, so to speak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I don't rule it out, as I do see signs of a likely Balkan formation zone for extant R1b-L51, but cannot detect significant indications of Balkan DNA moving to the South Eastern Pontic at that time.
    I guess I should have been more specific. The Balkan theory I was referring to suggests that the migration of potential Balkanic (proto) Armenians into Armenia would be sometime after 1200 BCE, during or after the Bronze Age Collapse. What time period are you referring to? I'm assuming your time period is well before 1200 BCE.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 07-07-19 at 22:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    But arguing the latter (i.e. south of the Caucasus) would explain a) the apparent Indo-European names related to Armi/Armani as recorded by the Eblaites in the 25th century BCE and b) PIE's early exposure to/relationship with Kartvelian, Semitic, and potentially Sumerian and Hurrio-Urartian.
    a) In Syria? More likely explains contacts with the Trojans (Troy I = 3,000 BCE).

    b) More likely explains trading contacts rather than an incursion and language replacement. Wagons were brought from the south (by traders?).

    CHG (cattle herders?) did come from the south, but did they take over and impose their language? But then why not also their pottery?
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I guess I should have been more specific. The Balkan theory I was referring to suggests that the migration of potential Balkanic (proto) Armenians into Armenia would be sometime after 1200 BCE, during or after the Bronze Age Collapse. What time period are you referring to? I'm assuming you're time period is well before 1200 BCE.
    Oh, I haven't looked that far forward into Armenia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    When I said Armenian is closer to Balto-Slavic, I meant as a Satem language, I also believe a Greek substrate about Armenian, in fact Armenian phonology is very similar to Greek phonology and we see a similar (aspirated and deaspirated) devoicing and other similar sound changes like s>h, but it means proto-Armenians as a satem-speaking people migrated to the Greek lands in the east of Anatolia.
    Yes, I see a likely Armenian LBA contribution in present day Greeks mixed in with a lot of late steppic DNA (about 50:50 with indigenous Mycenaean). I suppose this could have affected the Greek language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    a) In Syria? More likely explains contacts with the Trojans (Troy I = 3,000 BCE).

    b) More likely explains trading contacts rather than an incursion and language replacement. Wagons were brought from the south (by traders?).

    CHG (cattle herders?) did come from the south, but did they take over and impose their language? But then why not also their pottery?
    A) Yes, Ebla in Syria or southern Turkey. I'm referring to Damgaard et. al 2018 research. You can find a supplement here which summarizes some of the information: https://zenodo.org/record/1243933#.XSJZKy2ZMWo.

    I'm a little confused what you're getting at with Troy I. As far as I know, we don't know what language was spoken in Troy I.

    B) That seems possible.

    Not sure about the CHG, but we know for a fact that they were there because of their genetic input, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    A) Yes, Ebla in Syria or southern Turkey. I'm referring to Damgaard et. al 2018 research. You can find a supplement here which summarizes some of the information: https://zenodo.org/record/1243933#.XSJZKy2ZMWo.

    I'm a little confused what you're getting at with Troy I. As far as I know, we don't know what language was spoken in Troy I.

    B) That seems possible.

    Not sure about the CHG, but we know for a fact that they were there because of their genetic input, right?
    Mallory: "Troy I and related sites might mark the earliest intrusion of Indo-Europeans (Proto-Anatolians?) into Anatolia." Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, p. 605.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Mallory: "Troy I and related sites might mark the earliest intrusion of Indo-Europeans (Proto-Anatolians?) into Anatolia." Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, p. 605.
    Thanks! Could be, although there's also the theory that the Anatolians came directly from the east. I guess this doesn't necessarily negate that.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    But neither Armenian or Balto-Slavic are truly satem unlike Indo-Iranian languages.
    That is certainly opposite, for example about proto-IE ḱerd- "heart" that I mentioned, we see Balto-Slavic *sirdis and Armenian sirt but Indo-Iranian *jʰrda, also compare to Celtic *krid-, or about proto-IE *leyǵʰ "to lick, tongue", we see Balto-Slavic *laizit and Armenian lizem but Indo-Iranian *rijʰati, also comapre to Celtic *lega, ...

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Balto-Slavic has incomplete satemization and Armenian is somewhere between centum and satem (and is likely somewhere between Greek and Indo-Iranian).
    I don't know why you insist that Armenian is not a Satem language, there are certainly many Greek and Iranian words in Armenian but it doesn't mean that Armenian is a mixture of those languages, not an independent language.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Does Armenian have s>h? I thought it was p>h and h>k.
    Debuccalization of /s/ is one of the main characteristics of Armenian language, voiceless bilabial stop (p) is gernerally changed to voiced labiodental fricative (v) in Armenian, for example look at Old Armenian evt from proto-IE *septm "seven" or Old Armenian uver from proto-IE *uper "above, up, over", /p/ is changed to a glottal stop usually in initial syllables.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    What do you mean that the proto-Armenians were a satem-speaking people who migrated to the Greek lands east of Anatolia? This is counter to most models. So what you're suggesting is that Armenians and Greeks flipped homelands, so to speak?
    When we talk about substrate language and we see a similar phonology, it means the same people adopted a new language, for example Azeri language in Iran is a Turkic language on a Persian substrate because Azeri and Persian have also similar phonologies and sound changes, there was certainly a Turkic migration to Azerbaijan but with a minimum effect on genetics, the same thing can be said about Armenians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    That is certainly opposite, for example about proto-IE ḱerd- "heart" that I mentioned, we see Balto-Slavic *sirdis and Armenian sirt but Indo-Iranian *jʰrda, also compare to Celtic *krid-, or about proto-IE *leyǵʰ "to lick, tongue", we see Balto-Slavic *laizit and Armenian lizem but Indo-Iranian *rijʰati, also comapre to Celtic *lega, ...
    Opposite of what? Nobody contests that Indo-Iranian languages are satem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't know why you insist that Armenian is not a Satem language, there are certainly many Greek and Iranian words in Armenian but it doesn't mean that Armenian is a mixture of those languages, not an independent language.
    Because Armenian and Balto-Slavic are not fully satemized. They are both officially classified as satem but they contain dual reflexes, so in actuality they straddle the line between both. So they are satem with an asterix. Albanian may be this way too but I'm not sure because I don't know enough about it. And again (this is beside the point but), the satemization in Armenian is based on a small number of words (like sirt).

    And nobody was saying that Armenian is a mixture of Greek and Iranian. Everybody knows that it is it's own language. The point is, it's difficult to study Armenian because there was significant lexical replacement of native Armenian words with Iranian words (and many other languages including Greek, Latin, Hurrian, Urartian, Luwian, Syriac, etc) by the time that Armenian was first written down. This makes it difficult to fully analyze Armenian as a language. The Greek influence in Armenian is overstated (I think it's only like 200 root words). But there are only something like 450 native (i.e. words from PIE-->ProtoArm-->Arm without having an intermediary, i.e. Iranian) root words in Armenian that survive. Whereas the Iranian lexical influence in Armenian is something like 60% or 80% (I cannot remember) of the modern Armenian language (hence why Armenian was classified as an Iranian language originally). Additionally, a significant chunk of Armenian words are unclassified (I can't remember the exact number). Some of these could be borrowings from unattested languages/linguistic isolates, but perhaps some are divergent Indo-Euro root words that haven't been identified.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    When we talk about substrate language and we see a similar phonology, it means the same people adopted a new language, for example Azeri language in Iran is a Turkic language on a Persian substrate because Azeri and Persian have also similar phonologies and sound changes, there was certainly a Turkic migration to Azerbaijan but with a minimum effect on genetics, the same thing can be said about Armenians.
    Yes, but the substrate languages in Armenian are Hurrian and Urartian and I think some Caucasian languages, not Greek. And that doesn't necessarily mean that Armenians migrated from far away. It could be that Armenians were in northern Armenian/NE Turkey, and over time, as they spread out, they assimilated Hurrio-Urartian and Caucasian-speaking peoples (this could have happened more than once and started very early on). When Armenian became a lingua-franca of E Turkey/Armenia, and it began to be written down, these words used in various dialects became standardized (we know that this happened in the 19th century CE too, so I don't know why it couldn't have happened before, earlier on). There were something like 500 dialects of Armenian as recently as the last century, and that was well after Armenian was written down. Imagine how many there were prior to the 5th century.

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    Actually, Cyrus, I just read an article ("The Indo-European and Ancient Near Eastern Sources of the Armenian Epic" by Armen Petrosyan) that the names of certain mountains in Turkey, Armenia, and western Iran (Zagros, Taurus (Tauros), Artos, Grgros (Grgur), Arnos) may be from some sort of Hellenic language. If true, that doesn't necessarily mean that Armenians came from the Balkans and Greeks came from Armenia (i.e. Greeks and Armenians flipped), but, rather, to me, supports a Hampian model of Greco-Armenian diffusion (i.e. they inhabited a similar geographic area in the south Caucasus and the Hellenic-speaking tribes branched out and the Armenian-speakers remained behind). This model could also potentially explain the Mushkis (especially if they were a Phyrgian-esque south Caucasian group). I also once read an article that postulated that Urartian Haldi was a form of Helios+di ("di" being the Proto or Classic Armenian word for "god"). Hal would have become Hel in Greek, Hal would have become Har>Ar in Armenian. The problem with this theory is whether Khaldi was pronounced with an Kh or whether this was due to limitations of cuneiform (i.e. there being no H symbol in cuneiform).

    https://www.academia.edu/3656244/The...gton_D.C._2002

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Urartians and Mannaeans occupied Armenia and northwest of Iran just in the first centuries of the 1st millennium BC, I believe even this period the majority of inhabitants were IE speaking people, in the 2nd millennium BC we see not only Anatolian and Hellenic culture in this region but also many elements of Indo-Aryan culture in Mitanni, Slavic culture in Kassite, Germanic culture in Guti, Celtic culture in Cadusii, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Thanks! Could be, although there's also the theory that the Anatolians came directly from the east. I guess this doesn't necessarily negate that.
    Except there is no architectural evidence for such a migration at that time: Caucasus -> Syria. There is for a much shorter one: Bulgaria (Ezero) -> Troy I (related pottery).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Urartians and Mannaeans occupied Armenia and northwest of Iran just in the first centuries of the 1st millennium BC, I believe even this period the majority of inhabitants were IE speaking people, in the 2nd millennium BC we see not only Anatolian and Hellenic culture in this region but also many elements of Indo-Aryan culture in Mitanni, Slavic culture in Kassite, Germanic culture in Guti, Celtic culture in Cadusii, ...
    Citations please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Urartians and Mannaeans occupied Armenia and northwest of Iran just in the first centuries of the 1st millennium BC, I believe even this period the majority of inhabitants were IE speaking people, in the 2nd millennium BC we see not only Anatolian and Hellenic culture in this region but also many elements of Indo-Aryan culture in Mitanni, Slavic culture in Kassite, Germanic culture in Guti, Celtic culture in Cadusii, ...
    According to Enclopaedia Iranica, the Cadusii were Iranian. The Kassites seem to have spoken a Hurrio-Urartian language (Kassite may have been its own language within the Hurrio-Urartian family) although some have also suggested a potential Indo-Iranian superstratum (much like the case with the Mitanni). I am unconvinced by the supposed Slavic similarities in Kassite deities' names. I think it is possible that the Gutians were Indo-European (this could potentially explain some of the potentially Indo-European words in Sumerian) but the only known Indo-European language I've seen them compared to somewhat convincingly is Tocharian.

    I think that there were both Indo-European-speaking peoples and non-Indo European-speaking peoples in the region, much like now. As for the Urartians, I think that they were one (or some) of the Nairi tribes, maybe who originally came from northern Iraq, as suggested by Paul Zimansky (which would explain their holy site, Musasir/Ardini being located near Rawanduz). Perhaps they were fleeing Akkadian persecution and ended up near Lake Van. Regardless, I think that this would have happened some centuries before the establishment of the Kingdom of Van/Urartu. This could a) explain Urartu's apparent long contact with Armenian, prior to the formation of Urartu and b) some of the Urartian kings having Indo-European names (Arame, Argisti, Menuas, Erimena, perhaps more) and some of their gods having Indo-European origins (Siuni, Artinis, Arubani/Bagmastu, Selardi, Theispas, possibly Khaldi--loans from Anatolian, Armenian, Indo-Iranian, and maybe Greeks).

    As for the Mannaeans, they seem to have had both Hurrian/Kassite and Iranian elements. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was an Armenian presence, at least in the north, as Biblically Mannea (Minni) was associated with Armenia.

    Regardless, neither Mannae nor Urartu were ethnically homogenous kingdoms (if you could even call them kingdoms--they were more confederacies).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Except there is no architectural evidence for such a migration at that time: Caucasus -> Syria. There is for a much shorter one: Bulgaria (Ezero) -> Troy I (related pottery).
    Wasn't Kura-Araxes pottery found in central Turkey (Malatya area) and northern Syria though, dated between 3000-2800 BCE? This could be from either Proto-Hurrio-Urartians or from Anatolian Indo-Euros coming from the South Caucasus and settling in northern Mesopotamia/southern Anatolia, depending on what language(s) the Kura-Araxes peoples spoke, of course.

    Or maybe the Indo-Euros pushed the Kura-Araxes (proto-Hurrio-Urartians?) southwest? This could explain a) possible connections between proto-Hurrio-Urartian and proto-NE Caucasian languages and b) early contact between Indo-European speakers and Hurrio-Urartian-speakers. In this scenario, neither Hurrians nor Urartians were individual cultures yet, so they would have time to evolve into Hurrians and Urartians in the Urkesh and Musasir areas, respectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    According to Enclopaedia Iranica, the Cadusii were Iranian.
    Of course they adopted an Iranian culture, like several other people in Iran, as Pliny has also mentioned, Cadusii is the Greek name of these people, they called themselves Gaeli (modern Gilaki), we still see many elements of Celtic culture in modern Gilaki culture, some of them are really unbelievable, for example we see they still celebrate some ancient Celtic festivals with almost the same names and in the same ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    The Kassites seem to have spoken a Hurrio-Urartian language (Kassite may have been its own language within the Hurrio-Urartian family) although some have also suggested a potential Indo-Iranian superstratum (much like the case with the Mitanni). I am unconvinced by the supposed Slavic similarities in Kassite deities' names.
    They were certinaly not a Hurrio-Urartian people, some sceintists believe they were pre-Indo-European people, Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab, have found the oldest sample of R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk of Kashan (4,000 BC): https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Kashan is the original land of Kashu (Kassites), in the Iranian mythology Kashvad (Kashub) was father of Gudarz (Gutar/Guti), another major Indo-Eruopean people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashvad

    Ernst Herzfeld and some other Iranologists believe ancient Caspians (Greek Kaspioi) who lived in the Caspian steppe were the same Kassites (Kashubs) who migrated to this region, it is possible that they also migrated to Kashubia (Poland) where R1a has the highest frequency. (Iran > Yamnaya > Corded Ware)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Of course they adopted an Iranian culture, like several other people in Iran, as Pliny has also mentioned, Cadusii is the Greek name of these people, they called themselves Gaeli (modern Gilaki), we still see many elements of Celtic culture in modern Gilaki culture, some of them are really unbelievable, for example we see they still celebrate some ancient Celtic festivals with almost the same names and in the same ways.
    Several other Indo-European speaking peoples (and non-IE) have very similar festivities, I don't see how this connects Celtic culture to the Gilaki people. It should also be noted that the Old Irish form of Gael, Goidel for the inhabitants of Ireland is a borrowed word from Old Welsh Guoidel. What are you saying about the Gaeli (Gilaki)? Are you implying there is a common cultural connection based off of a term used by Pliny and that of the Goidelic speaking peoples of the British Isles?



    They were certinaly not a Hurrio-Urartian people, some sceintists believe they were pre-Indo-European people, Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab, have found the oldest sample of R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk of Kashan (4,000 BC): https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Kashan is the original land of Kashu (Kassites), in the Iranian mythology Kashvad (Kashub) was father of Gudarz (Gutar/Guti), another major Indo-Eruopean people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashvad

    Ernst Herzfeld and some other Iranologists believe ancient Caspians (Greek Kaspioi) who lived in the Caspian steppe were the same Kassites (Kashubs) who migrated to this region, it is possible that they also migrated to Kashubia (Poland) where R1a has the highest frequency. (Iran > Yamnaya > Corded Ware)
    Yet, we've not seen any real information on this Tepe Sialk R-M17, how can anyone incorporate it into further ancient DNA papers if the data isn't available? Bolded part: am I right in understanding this as you connecting the Gutians to the Gotar of Gotland? We're going to need evidence/citations.

    Where does Herzfeld make this connection? The Kassites spoke a language isolate AFAIK, how they get linked in as related or ancestral to Slavic-speaking Kashubians from Pomerania does not make any sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Of course they adopted an Iranian culture, like several other people in Iran, as Pliny has also mentioned, Cadusii is the Greek name of these people, they called themselves Gaeli (modern Gilaki), we still see many elements of Celtic culture in modern Gilaki culture, some of them are really unbelievable, for example we see they still celebrate some ancient Celtic festivals with almost the same names and in the same ways.
    But one of the big issues with your theory is that you still seem to be supporting a Yamnaya origin for most Indo-European languages (which is the mainstream theory--for good reason) but at the same are suggesting that not only Armenians and Iranians were present in the South Caucasus in pre-history, but also Greeks, Germanics, Celts, and Slavs. The presence of all these peoples so early on in history is incompatible with the Yamnaya theory as it suggests that these languages were already defined cultures by the EBA, if not before, which either a) suggests that multiple genetically similar but linguistically individualized peoples migrated north to Yamnaya and b) that these various peoples (Germanics, Celtics, Slavics) went two directions upon leaving the Pontic Steppes. Some would have to go west into Europe to establish the European languages/cultures we are familiar with, and some would have to go south and...disappear? Get absorbed into Hurrio-Urartian/Armenian/Iranian/Semitic peoples?

    I don't know much about the Gilaks, although I know that they speak an Iranian language and are pretty genetically similar to South Caucasians. If the Gilaks=Cadusii, I think them having some Celtic origins is possible because there were Celts that invaded modern Turkey, where they established Galatia in the 3rd century BCE. Perhaps some of these Celts moved eastward and mixed with the Cadusii?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    They were certinaly not a Hurrio-Urartian people, some sceintists believe they were pre-Indo-European people, Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab, have found the oldest sample of R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk of Kashan (4,000 BC): https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Kashan is the original land of Kashu (Kassites), in the Iranian mythology Kashvad (Kashub) was father of Gudarz (Gutar/Guti), another major Indo-Eruopean people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashvad

    Ernst Herzfeld and some other Iranologists believe ancient Caspians (Greek Kaspioi) who lived in the Caspian steppe were the same Kassites (Kashubs) who migrated to this region, it is possible that they also migrated to Kashubia (Poland) where R1a has the highest frequency. (Iran > Yamnaya > Corded Ware)
    How can you be certain that the Kassites were not a Hurrio-Urartian people? As spruithean said, they are officially a linguistic-isolate, although as I previously said, there is a fairly popular theory, based on their names, that they may have been a Hurrian-like people. They also may have had an Indo-Aryan element--perhaps a ruling class--at some point.

    You cannot say that the Gutians were "another major Indo-European people"--we do not have enough surviving examples of either the Kassites' or Gutians' languages to know that. Officially they are language isolates. There has been suggestion that a) the Gutians may have been related to the Tocharians, in some capacity, based on some of their names and b) that the Kassites may have had an Indo-Aryan element, based on their names, but as I said, we simply do not have enough information to know who they really were, let alone be "certain".

    The Gutians being Indo-Europeans though could explain the supposed Indo-European substratum in Sumerian (Whittaker's Euphratic Theory). It could also explain at least some of the early Indo-European contacts with Semitic.

    As for the Kassites, if Kura-Araxes culture were the proto-Hurrio-Urartians, or if the Hurrio-Urartians came from Mesopotamia originally (Urkesh in northern Syria being the religious center for the Hurrians, Musasir in northern Iraq being the religious center for Urartians) it seems very possible that the Kassites spoke a language from the Hurrio-Urartian family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Where does Herzfeld make this connection? The Kassites spoke a language isolate AFAIK, how they get linked in as related or ancestral to Slavic-speaking Kashubians from Pomerania does not make any sense.
    Because somebody went through Wikipedia and made some outlandish claims. The least far-fetched one is Kassite Buriash/Ubriash being connected to Slavic Buria, a storm god. But the meaning of Buriash/Ubriash, according to this page, is unknown.

    The connections get significantly more outlandish. Another Slavic storm god, Perun, is somehow tied to Ishkur. Kassite Shimalia (apparently meaning "bird on high perch") is connected to the Slavic word for winter, "zima". The Kassite Shipak ("crescent moon") is connected to Slavic siepak (slaughterer).

    I don't know if these Slavic gods (like Perun, Buria, Shimalia) were really gods worshipped by ancient Slavic peoples as I don't really know much about Slavic history. But I think Buriash, if it even is connected to the Slavic god Burias, could have arrived through an intermediary rather than the Kassites and Slavs being directly connected (i.e. the Kassites being Slavs or vice versa).

    If Ubriash/Buriash is connected to the Greek Borias, I wonder if it's possible that it was a borrowing from Kassite>Greek>Slavic or Kassite>(Hittite? Luwian? Urartian?)>Greek>Slavic. If there is a legitimate connection, I think this like the most possible explanation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassite_deities

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    I'm interested to know why some people say Kassite is a Hurro-Urartian language, we know about just a few Kassite words in Akkadian texts, for example one of them is janzi "king", it can be compared to both proto-Germanic kuningaz and proto-Slavic knęzi "prince", we see some normal Indo-European sound changes like j>g>k and zh>g>z. Sanskrit jenya "noble, genuine" has the same origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I'm interested to know why some people say Kassite is a Hurro-Urartian language, we know about just a few Kassite words in Akkadian texts, for example one of them is janzi "king", it can be compared to both proto-Germanic kuningaz and proto-Slavic knęzi "prince", we see some normal Indo-European sound changes like j>g>k and zh>g>z. Sanskrit jenya "noble, genuine" has the same origin.
    Well janzi seems more like like jenya than than it does the Slavic or Germanic words, to me anyway. Again, it's believed that the Kassites either were in contact with Indo-Europeans or had an IE ruling class or sorts, likely an Indo-Iranian group (much like the Mitanni may have). If the Gutians were Indo-European, the Kassites were likely in contact with them as well, and also possibly Anatolians and maybe Armenians and Greeks. There's no reason why these Indo-European names/words had to be from Slavic or Germanic--there are plenty of other languages that they could be from that make more sense.

    Anyway, Anauld Fournet found a lot of similarities between the Kassite language and the Hurrio-Urartian languages. He even went so far as to assert that Kassite, Chaldean (Kadsim), Kaska, and maybe Hatti and Kartvelian all derive from or are related to Khaldi. I don't know how I feel about some of those, but Khaldi made his first appearance as an Akkadian god and not a Urartian one, so maybe there is something to Fournet's theory, at least to an extent. Nevertheless, he also claimed that the Kassites likely came from the greater Anatolia region. If Kura-Araxes were the proto-Hurro-Urartians, and if the Kassite language (minus the Indo-European/Semitic/Elamite loanwords) belonged to the Hurro-Urartian language family, this all makes a lot of sense.

    This will explain Kassite's linking to Hurro-Urartian:

    https://bulgari-istoria-2010.com/boo...et_Kassite.pdf

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