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Thread: Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

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    What I said is correct, maybe one day people will realise how important it is that Anatolian lacks all these words for wheels, wagons and the like

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    What I said is correct, maybe one day people will realise how important it is that Anatolian lacks all these words for wheels, wagons and the like
    It's subjectively correct. To you it is correct. Your theory seems to be like Cyrus' (where all Indo-European groups were living in Iran, fully distinct) but flipped. The thing is, Corded Ware, which began some centuries after Yamnaya, had the same South Caucasus ancestry that Yamnaya did. Isn't this suggestive of Yamnaya moving westward?

    Hurkis was "wheel" in Hittite. There seem to have been different words for wagon, some which may have been borrowings. Regardless, to my understanding, the lack of a *kʷel-rooted word for wheel in Hittite is a bit crux of the Indo-Hittite/PPIE theory. But again, there is no (surviving) *kʷel word for "wheel" in Armenian either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Well janzi seems more like like jenya than than it does the Slavic or Germanic words, to me anyway. Again, it's believed that the Kassites either were in contact with Indo-Europeans or had an IE ruling class or sorts, likely an Indo-Iranian group (much like the Mitanni may have). If the Gutians were Indo-European, the Kassites were likely in contact with them as well, and also possibly Anatolians and maybe Armenians and Greeks. There's no reason why these Indo-European names/words had to be from Slavic or Germanic--there are plenty of other languages that they could be from that make more sense.
    Anyway, Anauld Fournet found a lot of similarities between the Kassite language and the Hurrio-Urartian languages. He even went so far as to assert that Kassite, Chaldean (Kadsim), Kaska, and maybe Hatti and Kartvelian all derive from or are related to Khaldi. I don't know how I feel about some of those, but Khaldi made his first appearance as an Akkadian god and not a Urartian one, so maybe there is something to Fournet's theory, at least to an extent. Nevertheless, he also claimed that the Kassites likely came from the greater Anatolia region. If Kura-Araxes were the proto-Hurro-Urartians, and if the Kassite language (minus the Indo-European/Semitic/Elamite loanwords) belonged to the Hurro-Urartian language family, this all makes a lot of sense.
    This will explain Kassite's linking to Hurro-Urartian:
    https://bulgari-istoria-2010.com/boo...et_Kassite.pdf
    We read in your source: "There is good reason for supposing that Kassites were once neighbors of some Indo-European peoples or that they may even have included an Indo-European component."

    It is important to know that they are talking about Kassite kingdom/empire not Kassite people/land in the central Iran, the land of Gutians was in the east of Kassite empire, not in the west.



    For example Rustamid empire in the northwest of Africa is also called a Persian kingdom/empire but just the first kings of this empire had Persian names and we see a few elements of Persian culture in this region, the same thing can be said about Ilkhanid empire in Iran, ...

    About the word janzi "king, head of family/clan", it is clear that proto-Indo-European voiced palatal stop (ǵ/ɟ) is closer to /j/ than /g/, for example proto-IE ǵnh₁os "kin, clan, race" was pronounced as ɟenos, not genos, compare to Sanskrit janas "race, clan". I think the original proto-IE word for king was ǵnǵʰǝ. (ǵʰ sounds like zh)

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    An interesting point about the relation between the names of Kaśyapa, Caspians, Kashubs, ... and Kassites (Kashu):

    Encyclopedia of Religions, page 420:



    Babylonian kudurru of the late Kassite period found near Baghdad:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashya...e-snedden22-26

    "Kaśyapa, alternatively kacchapa, means "turtle" in Sanskrit. According to Michael Witzel, it is related to Avestan kasiiapa, Sogdian kyph, New Persian kaaf, ka(a)p which mean "tortoise", after which Kashaf Rūd or a river in Turkmenistan and Khorasan is named. Tokarian A kāccap ("turtle", "tortoise")."

    Kashmir, the northern Himalayan region of the Indian subcontinent got its name from Kashyapa Rishi. The name Kashmir, states Christopher Snedden, may be a shortened form of "Kashyapa Mir" or the "lake of the sage Kashyapa", or alternatively derived from "Kashyapa Meru" or the sacred mountains of Kashyapa.

    In ancient texts of Greece, linked to the expedition of Alexander the Great, this land has been called "Kasperia", possibly a contraction of "Kasyapamira". The word "Kaspapyros" appears in Greek geographer Hekataois text, and as "Kaspatyros" in Herodotus who states that Skylax the Karyandian began in Kaspatyros to trace the path of Indus river from the mountains to where it drained in the sea. Kaspatyros may be same as Kaspa-pyrus or Kasyapa-pur (city of Kashyapa) in other texts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We read in your source: "There is good reason for supposing that Kassites were once neighbors of some Indo-European peoples or that they may even have included an Indo-European component."

    It is important to know that they are talking about Kassite kingdom/empire not Kassite people/land in the central Iran, the land of Gutians was in the east of Kassite empire, not in the west.



    For example Rustamid empire in the northwest of Africa is also called a Persian kingdom/empire but just the first kings of this empire had Persian names and we see a few elements of Persian culture in this region, the same thing can be said about Ilkhanid empire in Iran, ...
    Yes. Regarding contact with, or population of, Indo-Europeans--that's exactly what I said. And those Indo-Europeans were likely Indo-Iranian, but the Kassites (either as a people or as an empire) could additionally have had contact with Anatolians, Armenians, and Greeks. They also could have, earlier, had contact with the Gutians. Both the Gutians and the Kassites are believed to have come from the Zagros Mountains or, in the case of the Kassites, possibly modern-Turkey. They could have come in the southern Armenian Highlands or northern Mesopotamia and Gutian could also potentially have accounted for IE elements in Kassite (if the Gutians were indeed IE, that is).

    The point is, there seems to be an agreement that the Kassites (the original tribe that spoke the Kassite language) were not Indo-European but spoke a language isolate or maybe were Hurro-Urartians of some sort. But as I said (and as that article says) they came into contact with Indo-Europeans and may have absorbed some Indo-Europeans, which definitely seems likely as their empire expanded, just as Indo-Europeans absorbed non-Indo-European peoples.

    Why does it matter whether the Gutians were to the east or the west of the Kassites? I didn't specify the direction, but it seems to be that there is geographic overlap between Kassite Babylonian Empire and Gutian Sumeria, but the Kassite Babylonian Empire was 500+ years after Gutian Sumeria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    About the word janzi "king, head of family/clan", it is clear that proto-Indo-European voiced palatal stop (ǵ/ɟ) is closer to /j/ than /g/, for example proto-IE ǵ�nh₁os "kin, clan, race" was pronounced as ɟenos, not genos, compare to Sanskrit janas "race, clan". I think the original proto-IE word for king was ǵ�nǵʰǝ. (ǵʰ sounds like zh)
    Look, I agree, I think it's a compelling theory that janzi is an Indo-European root. But I still see no reason why we should assume that is from Slavic and not from some other language, like an Indo-Iranian language or Gutian (if they were Indo-Euros).

    Off topic, but jan/joon (soul, dear) come from this same root, by the way?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Could I ask ... I have read several times about the satemisation of IE, but is it possible that IE was originally satem, and that a branch of it became centumised? Also, which other languages have centum or satem features?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Yes. Regarding contact with, or population of, Indo-Europeans--that's exactly what I said. And those Indo-Europeans were likely Indo-Iranian, but the Kassites (either as a people or as an empire) could additionally have had contact with Anatolians, Armenians, and Greeks. They also could have, earlier, had contact with the Gutians. Both the Gutians and the Kassites are believed to have come from the Zagros Mountains or, in the case of the Kassites, possibly modern-Turkey. They could have come in the southern Armenian Highlands or northern Mesopotamia and Gutian could also potentially have accounted for IE elements in Kassite (if the Gutians were indeed IE, that is).

    The point is, there seems to be an agreement that the Kassites (the original tribe that spoke the Kassite language) were not Indo-European but spoke a language isolate or maybe were Hurro-Urartians of some sort. But as I said (and as that article says) they came into contact with Indo-Europeans and may have absorbed some Indo-Europeans, which definitely seems likely as their empire expanded, just as Indo-Europeans absorbed non-Indo-European peoples.

    Why does it matter whether the Gutians were to the east or the west of the Kassites? I didn't specify the direction, but it seems to be that there is geographic overlap between Kassite Babylonian Empire and Gutian Sumeria, but the Kassite Babylonian Empire was 500+ years after Gutian Sumeria.



    Look, I agree, I think it's a compelling theory that janzi is an Indo-European root. But I still see no reason why we should assume that is from Slavic and not from some other language, like an Indo-Iranian language or Gutian (if they were Indo-Euros).

    Off topic, but jan/joon (soul, dear) come from this same root, by the way?
    It is certainly important to know where Kassites originally lived, it is generally believed that they lived in the Central Iran where cities of Kashan, Qazvin (Kasvin), Kashmar, ... were named after them, I don't see any evidence about the existence of a Hurro-Urartian culture in this region, but if they lived in the west of Gutian lands, they could be originally a Hurro-Urartian people, in this case they seem to almost the same as Mitanni.
    Persian Jan is cognate with Armenian anjn, the Persian word has a prefix but Armenian one has a suffix, they don't relate to the Indo-European word for race/kin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Could I ask ... I have read several times about the satemisation of IE, but is it possible that IE was originally satem, and that a branch of it became centumised? Also, which other languages have centum or satem features?
    The problem is labiovelars, they didn't exist in the satem languages, for example Satem /g/ couldn't be changed to /b/ in Greek. Of course they exist in the Western Iranian phenologies, like Luri and Kurdish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_phonology It is actually one of the main reasons that I believe Indo-European originated in this land because almost all IE sounds exist there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is certainly important to know where Kassites originally lived, it is generally believed that they lived in the Central Iran where cities of Kashan, Qazvin (Kasvin), Kashmar, ... were named after them, I don't see any evidence about the existence of a Hurro-Urartian culture in this region, but if they lived in the west of Gutian lands, they could be originally a Hurro-Urartian people, in this case they seem to almost the same as Mitanni.
    Persian Jan is cognate with Armenian anjn, the Persian word has a prefix but Armenian one has a suffix, they don't relate to the Indo-European word for race/kin.
    No, it's not generally believed that the Kassites came from central Iran, at least as far as the scholarship I have read. It's speculated that they either came from northern Mesopotamia or Eastern Turkey, according to Fournet, or the Zagros region on the border of Iraq and Iran (obviously these theories are not mutually exclusive as these regions border the Zagros, as I'm certain you know). As for Hurro-Urartians in central Iran, the Mannaeans seem to have been a mix of Hurrians, Iranians, and possibly Armenians and possibly Kassites. If you're basing all this on -kash names, Mannaean Zikirti corresponded with modern Kesharvarz/Kasharvar.

    If proto-Hurro-Urartian was spoken in Kura-Araxes (which, again, could explain some of the apparent linguistic affinities between proto-Hurro-Urartian and proto-NE Caucasian, as well as high percentage of the J2 y-haplogroup in the South Caucasus), a Hurro-Urartian presence south of Lake Urmia seems even more likely as Kura-Araxes spread well into Iran. Perhaps what happened was, as the Kura-Araxes people spread outward toward Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the Levant, and Iran, they began to develop their own regional dialects and customs. These divisions were heightened when invaders (Proto-Anatolians? Gutians?) pushed them further south, east, and west, and cut them off from each other. The ones in northern Syria became Hurrians, the ones in northern Iraq became Urartians, the ones in SE Turkey or NW Iran became Kassites. Just to be clear: I don't think that anybody thinks that the Kassites were Hurrians, but rather that they were related to Hurrians, just like the Urartians.

    But yes, you're right, a good analogy for the Kassites could be the Mitanni: a Hurrian people with an Indo-Iranian or Indic ruling class, or maybe even the Mannaeans: a Hurro-Urartian people with contacts to (and possibly populations of) Indo-Europeans (Iranians, maybe Armenians, maybe Indics).

    I've never heard that word anjn, but an is a actually a prefix meaning "without." I believe this case also exists in Indo-Iranian languages, but I'm not sure. Regardless, the root of Armenian anjn would be jn. Armenians use jan (soul, dear) but this is commonly classified as an Iranian borrowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The problem is labiovelars, they didn't exist in the satem languages, for example Satem /g/ couldn't be changed to /b/ in Greek. Of course they exist in the Western Iranian phenologies, like Luri and Kurdish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_phonology It is actually one of the main reasons that I believe Indo-European originated in this land because almost all IE sounds exist there.
    Yep, and this is the reason that a linguist or anthropologist (I can't remember who) proposed making Armenian an international Lingua Franca or language of the UN. This is also a crux of the Armenian Theory. I think that the only sound (besides clicks and things like that) that doesn't exist in Armenian, as far as I know, is th (as in the). I think there used to be a w sound (as in way) but this disappeared in almost all modern dialects. F didn't originally exist in Armenian but it does now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Yep, and this is the reason that a linguist or anthropologist (I can't remember who) proposed making Armenian an international Lingua Franca or language of the UN. This is also a crux of the Armenian Theory. I think that the only sound (besides clicks and things like that) that doesn't exist in Armenian, as far as I know, is th (as in the). I think there used to be a w sound (as in way) but this disappeared in almost all modern dialects. F didn't originally exist in Armenian but it does now.
    I don't think that labiovelars exist in Armenian, in fact Armenians, like Persians, pronounce Luri/Kurdish kʷ as ku, gʷ as gu, xʷ as xu, ... just a Lur can say xʷuar "sister" correctly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't think that labiovelars exist in Armenian, in fact Armenians, like Persians, pronounce Luri/Kurdish kʷ as ku, gʷ as gu, xʷ as xu, ... just a Lur can say xʷuar "sister" correctly!
    I'm not sure. It may have died out: https://oldeuropean.org/ie/Two_series_of_velars.

    But Luri is an Iranian language, which suggests that either a) it's a unique development in Luri or b) that it died out in other languages but is retained in Luri.

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    Cyrus, it looks like I was wrong about Armenian anj/anjn. The an- apparently isn't related to "an-" (without), which is used in other cases.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/անձ#Armenian

    vs.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ան-

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I'm not sure. It may have died out: https://oldeuropean.org/ie/Two_series_of_velars.

    But Luri is an Iranian language, which suggests that either a) it's a unique development in Luri or b) that it died out in other languages but is retained in Luri.
    Phonology doesn't relate to languages, labiovelars exist in some Arabic dialects in the Khuzestan province of Iran but they didn't exist in Semitic phonology too, the Luri word for "cow" is almost the same as proto-IE gʷow, of course it doesn't mean that they have preserved the original IE word but proto-Iranian gaw has been changed to this word. Luri is actually a Persian dialect by changing velars to labiovelars and a>o.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Phonology doesn't relate to languages, labiovelars exist in some Arabic dialects in the Khuzestan province of Iran but they didn't exist in Semitic phonology too, the Luri word for "cow" is almost the same as proto-IE gʷow, of course it doesn't mean that they have preserved the original IE word but proto-Iranian gaw has been changed to this word. Luri is actually a Persian dialect by changing velars to labiovelars and a>o.
    That's interesting! I didn't know that about labiovelars in some Arabic.

    I initially wasn't talking about labiovelars though.

    Why do you think labiovelars are so popular in certain regions of Iran?

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    Cyrus, this is an interesting article/blogpost. You may have seen this before. Regardless, it makes the case for an Indo-European origin in the Zagros and is suggestive of a Greek-like substratum or superstratum in Sumerian.

    http://new-indology.blogspot.com/201...urprising.html

    So perhaps Indo-European really did originate in the greater Zagros region (as the genetics suggests...but we label it as PPIE) and some dialects of Indo-European didn't originate in the Steppes (Anatolian? Greco-(Aryan)-Armenian? Gutian? Something else like Whittaker's Euphratic?) What's interesting is (as you aptly pointed out) Zagros and some of the other mountain chains in the region seem to have names that come from a Greek-like language. Also, what else is interesting is apparent Sumerian loanwords in Armenian (which are generally recognized but usually explained as having reached Armenian through Akkadian). The thing with the Sumerian-Armenian words though is that there isn't much deviation between the words in both languages (at least as far as some words go), so I wonder if they were direct loans (Sumerian>Armenian or Greco-Armenian>Sumerian) as opposed to having an intermediary (Sumerian>Akkadian>Armenian). Agar="field" in Sumerian. Agarak="field" in Armenian. The Akkadian word is ugāru. Semitic u can become Armenian a, so obviously it is possible that agarak reached Armenian through Akkadian, but the similarity between the Armenian word and the Sumerian word is striking, to me at least. By the way, the Greek version is agros. Confusingly, the Greek word is etymologized as being a native IE word as opposed to being a Sumerian>Akkadian loanword like the Armenian word is, so something weird is going on here.

    Alternately, there could have been some contact with the Greeks/Armenians (if they were on the Russian Black Sea coast or in Georgia or Daghestan at the time) and Sumerians along trade routes or something...maybe they met halfway in Turkey because I don't know if there is any documentation of Sumerians as far north as Russia (but then again, there isn't documentation of Armenians/Greeks in Iraq or Turkey during the Sumerian-era either).

    Here's a scholarly research paper on this same subject:

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala...an_and_pie.pdf

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    From the Finnish academic article ("Sumero-Indo-European Language Contacts" by Aleksi Sahala) that I linked:

    ...in order to explain the distribution one is tempted to assume that either (1) Sumerian or its earlier language stage was once spoken in the proximity of the PIE urheimat located in the Pontiac-Caspian Steppe, or (2) that the common vocabulary was not directly transmitted from Sumerian to PIE (or vice versa), but was borrowed through unknown prehistoric languages spoken between the PIE and Sumerian homelands (and perhaps partly even originated from them). I would personally consider the latter a more credible option as we know next to nothing about the Sumerian homelands before their migration into the Southern Mesopotamia. Despite Kramer's (1963) Transcaucasian hypothesis, i.e. a Sumerian migration into Mesopotamia from the north, ultimately from the Caucasian or Transcaucasian region is acknowledged as the most plausible option (see Ziskind 1972), the actual hard evidence for it is extremely difficult to find. Kramer based his hypothesis mostly into Sumerian chronicles, cultural features and their expertise in metal working5. The hypothesis also loosely supported by later genetic studies on the Iraqi people, which point to their close relationship with Kurds, Caspian Iranians and ultimately the Svani Georgians of The South Caucasus (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994: p. 242), but as the genetic relationship between the modern Iraqi people and the Sumerians are uncertain, this cannot be taken as a hard evidence.

    Alas, also from the linguistic point of view evidence for "Caucasian" origin is practically nonexistent. Sumerian and Kartvelian certainly share some typological features including ergativity and heavy verbal prefixation, but yet both can be explained as a late development in Sumerian. Common vocabulary is minimal and consists only of few uncertain similar lexical items (see Klimov 1998
    6), which despite of their phonological and semantic similarities are problematic as the Kartvelian cannot be reconstructed beyond the Georgian-Zan level (ca. 2600 BC).
    If the Sumerians came from the Caucasus region originally, this would tie their mythical homeland, Aratta to Ararat nicely, which was a theory that was once more popular but seems to have fallen out of favor recently.

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    Maybe Whittaker's Euphratic is PPIE or Proto-Anatolian? Or maybe Euphratic was one of the first IE to leave the Steppes, established themselves in the northern Mesopotamia, and subsequently gave rise to Gutians and/or Tocharians and/or Armenians/Greeks (and Indo-Iranians)? Or maybe they have no living descendants but influenced subsequent Indo-European languages that arrived in the region? Alternatively, they could have been Kura-Araxes, I think, but I like the idea of Kura-Araxes being proto-Hurro-Urartian.

    Kura-Araxes Culture spread from the eastern Mediterranean to central Iran, and disappeared some 800 years after the first Sumerian cuneiform records. They must have been recorded by the Sumerians and Semites, which is the reason why I think that they were Hurro-Urartian or Indo-European--because the KA were clearly culturally and geographically influential. They weren't some little tribal group living in the hinterlands somewhere. They were a big culture that spread over a vast, and important, track of land. We know that the Hurrians were in Syria and that Hurrian-types were potentially in Iran as well, so I think this supports KA=PHU rather than KA=IE.

    If the Sumerians had an IE substratum or superstratum, unless this occurred well before Sumer (i.e. centuries or millennia), these IE people must have been recorded by the Sumerians too, which is a big reason why I think it's possible that the Gutians were IE (maybe the Euphratians were proto-Gutian or something). Unless these IE forbearers lived long before the Sumerians, in which case the Sumerians recorded these Indo-European peoples as part of their origin mythology/legends--like Aratta.

    https://www.academia.edu/1869616/The_Case_for_Euphratic

    https://www.academia.edu/3592967/Eup...logical_sketch

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    That's interesting! I didn't know that about labiovelars in some Arabic.

    I initially wasn't talking about labiovelars though.

    Why do you think labiovelars are so popular in certain regions of Iran?
    When we see different IE languages in different lands, the main reason is that there are different phonologies in these lands, for example Georgian is a Caucasian language but the same aspirated stops of Armenian exist in this language, as I said the same ones existed in proto-Greek too, so it is very possible that they originally lived in the same land of Armenians and Georgians.
    Labiovelars existed in proto-IE and just some Centum languages, like Latin and Hittite, but not Irish and Tocharian. The original land of these languages should be somewhere that these sounds exist in their phonology, this land can can't be clearly in modern Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    When we see different IE languages in different lands, the main reason is that there are different phonologies in these lands, for example Georgian is a Caucasian language but the same aspirated stops of Armenian exist in this language, as I said the same ones existed in proto-Greek too, so it is very possible that they originally lived in the same land of Armenians and Georgians.
    L
    abiovelars existed in proto-IE and just some Centum languages, like Latin and Hittite, but not Irish and Tocharian. The original land of these languages should be somewhere that these sounds exist in their phonology, this land can can't be clearly in modern Ukraine.
    Problem is anthropology and archaeology factor. The skull types in circle B were 4 types of armenoid, dinaric, alpine and pamir type according to greek scholar, but they are all close to cromagnon type by Dr. Brace. This kind of skull appeared in west asia at bronze age. As far as I know, a variety of M269 now exist from east turkey to armenia where lots of people have convex nose. The convex nose also has nothing to do with EEF and mediterranean type people. The late mesolithic people of east europe to bronze people of altai had that nose. Moreover the burial type of the circle B is supine type, which means they were from east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Problem is anthropology and archaeology factor. The skull types in circle B were 4 types of armenoid, dinaric, alpine and pamir type according to greek scholar, but they are all close to cromagnon type by Dr. Brace. This kind of skull appeared in west asia at bronze age. As far as I know, a variety of M269 now exist from east turkey to armenia where lots of people have convex nose. The convex nose also has nothing to do with EEF and mediterranean type people. The late mesolithic people of east europe to bronze people of altai had that nose. Moreover the burial type of the circle B is supine type, which means they were from east.
    Sorry, but how does this contradict what Cyrus was saying? The Caucasus is east of Crete and the Mesolithic is well before the time period in question. Additionally, the Maykop peoples had Siberian/Eastern Eurasian ancestry, so isn't it possible that some of those genes arrived in Steppe or South Caucasus peoples (as Maykop rested in between them)? It could also be from earlier migrations, well before Makop, Yamnaya, etc.

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    Riffing off my last comment, it's been established that a) both the Minoans and Mycenaeans descended from Neolithic farmers from Anatolia and also groups from the South Caucasus (Armenia, Iran) and b) that the Mycenaeans shared (or at least traded) ceramic-types with people from Armenia (they found identical grave goods in Trialeti-Vanadzor burials and Mycenaean burials--they would have been roughly contemporaneous with one another temporally).

    Additionally, there is a) speculation that the Ahhiyawans of the Hittite annals (who were located on the Turkish Aegean coast) were the Achaeans of Homer and b) that the Alaca burials of central Turkey were Indo-European, but not Anatolian, which really leaves them either being 1) Greek 2) Armenian or 3) some other group like Phrygian. If the Greeks originally came from the NE Turkish Black Sea coast or the Georgian Black Sea coast and then they moved westward, Alaca could have been a Greek burial that they constructed as they migrated toward the Aegean.

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    I believe Anatolian is actually a proto-Greek language on a Hurrian substrate, the fact is that voiced stops (b, d, g) and aspirated stops didn't exist in Hurrian phonology, so it seems to be possible that a language almost the same as proto-Greek was changed to Anatolian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I believe Anatolian is actually a proto-Greek language on a Hurrian substrate, the fact is that voiced stops (b, d, g) and aspirated stops didn't exist in Hurrian phonology, so it seems to be possible that a language almost the same as proto-Greek was changed to Anatolian.
    I think that's an interesting idea, but I'm not so sure about it. I do think Armenian, and possibly Greek too, were in contact with the Hittites, as well as the Hurrians (not only the Urartians, but Hurrians-proper), and quite likely Hattians.

    I think the Hattian gods may have been Indo-European, or they contributed to an early, unsplit IE culture (maybe Greco-Armeno-Aryan or an Anatolian-Greco-Armeno-Aryan group). Arinna clearly has the IE "ar-" sun prefix, which is present in Armenian, Anatolian, and Indo-Iranian languages. Estan (Hittite: Istanu), the sun god, reminds me of Armenian Astuas. Taru is of course related to bulls (this connection is well established). There are a few others ones I suspect as being Indo-European as well. We could suggest that these were loans from Hattian>Anatolian>Armenian but it doesn't explain how the Indo-Iranians got these roots unless the Indo-Iranian homeland is in Asia Minor and not Central Asia. All of these are thought to be PIE roots, which would suggest that, either the PIEs were in contact with the Hattians, or later IE peoples introduced these to the Hattians. Either way, it means that IEs were in Hatti by the end of the third millennium BCE.

    Hurrian Ulikummi is probably from Armenian Uelik, which would be Geghik in modern Armenian. The Hittite version is Illuyanka. I'd think the Hurrian was from Anatolian, but the -ik is an Armenian suffix (ummi is a Hurrian suffix, but the meaning is unknown, as far as I know).

    What are your thoughts on all this? Can we create a potential model to explain this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I think that's an interesting idea, but I'm not so sure about it. I do think Armenian, and possibly Greek too, were in contact with the Hittites, as well as the Hurrians (not only the Urartians, but Hurrians-proper), and quite likely Hattians.

    I think the Hattian gods may have been Indo-European, or they contributed to an early, unsplit IE culture (maybe Greco-Armeno-Aryan or an Anatolian-Greco-Armeno-Aryan group). Arinna clearly has the IE "ar-" sun prefix, which is present in Armenian, Anatolian, and Indo-Iranian languages. Estan (Hittite: Istanu), the sun god, reminds me of Armenian Astuas. Taru is of course related to bulls (this connection is well established). There are a few others ones I suspect as being Indo-European as well. We could suggest that these were loans from Hattian>Anatolian>Armenian but it doesn't explain how the Indo-Iranians got these roots unless the Indo-Iranian homeland is in Asia Minor and not Central Asia. All of these are thought to be PIE roots, which would suggest that, either the PIEs were in contact with the Hattians, or later IE peoples introduced these to the Hattians. Either way, it means that IEs were in Hatti by the end of the third millennium BCE.

    Hurrian Ulikummi is probably from Armenian Uelik, which would be Geghik in modern Armenian. The Hittite version is Illuyanka. I'd think the Hurrian was from Anatolian, but the -ik is an Armenian suffix (ummi is a Hurrian suffix, but the meaning is unknown, as far as I know).

    What are your thoughts on all this? Can we create a potential model to explain this?
    As I said in another thread, Arman (Armenia) is the name of this land in Old Persian and in all possibility it was Alman (l>r in Old Persian), a Gutian tribe in the west of Iran who were mentioned in many Akkadian sources, if Gutians were originally the same proto-Indo-Europeans (however I believe they became Germanic on a Semitic substrate), Almani/Armenian were also a PIE people.

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